FunOnlineMan Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 10 hours ago, longview said: God and Satan came from the SAME source as we ALL came from. All of us were intelligences of varying levels of capabilities. NONE of us had any "starting point" (there were no beginnings of beginnings). The "current" God invited us intelligences to become spirit children. From there the "threshing" process was on-going. Two third parts kept their First Estate and qualified to enter the next stage of progression, namely having the experience of mortality on a fallen and degenerate world with the veil of forgetfulness placed over our minds. The remaining third part will not gain physical bodies but continue to fight the implementation of the "Plan of Happiness" thus providing additional opposition that we need in this Second Estate. Yes, but if three thirds accepted the plan, it would have still gone through, yeah? Evil/misappropriated agency or whatever being a separate, although related, topic from Lucifer. That’s what I’m saying. Without god, there is no plan, but without satan, our agency would provide plenty of opposition. That’s how I understand it.
california boy Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Unaffiliated said: You just have to wait. Kind of like those movies that have an unexpected twist ending. Satan was a good guy after all. He took on this assignment to tempt people through eternity because he was the most valiant of all of God's children. The rest of us would have given up after the first couple of thousand years. I guess there are more surprising possibilities. I will wait in complete suspense until it is revealed.
Atheist Mormon Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 8 hours ago, Unaffiliated said: Oh I've been a lurker here for awhile before I joined and your posts are always trying to stir the pot and with a username like you have it just further makes obvious you are just trolling on this board. If writing the reality of facts called "trolling" so be it. Instead of attacking me with "ad hominems" why don't you quote something I wrote as trollish? As for "stirring the pot", my colleagues do much better job than me, which I don't find threatening in any way, do you?
Tacenda Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, longview said: Yes, carnal man has plenty of appetites and lusts that he will go whole hog on his own. Thankfully, most will come to understand the consequences of their actions and choose to moderate the destructive choices. But we all are born into the world with the Light of Christ that will help us choose good, better or best. Satan and his hosts are working frantically to counter the noble impulses (at least make us very humdrum, misdirect from doubling that talent). I feel for anyone that has to think this way. (the bold) Edited July 22, 2018 by Tacenda
Storm Rider Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 8 hours ago, california boy said: Thank goodness Satan got so mad at God for not accepting his ideas that he is willing to fight God for eternity. Even more amazing is that 1/3 of the hosts of heaven are all working tirelessly day and night to make Satan more powerful. What they are actually getting out of is seems to be a bit unclear. Talk about holding a grudge. Wow. What I can't figure out is who tempted Satan to plan this rebellion against God. And was this the very first evil thing Satan did? Was he this superstar spirit for who knows how long and then suddenly one day, he wakes up and has one bad day that throws him into this tailspin to make him do evil for the rest of eternity? So you also have to ask the question "Who is tempting Satan to do evil now? If he is doing evil all on his own without someone tempting him, why is it not possible that we are doing the same thing, doing evil all on our own without someone tempting us? I have seen examples of very faithful, stalwart individuals leave wife and family for a completely different way of life as they also leave the Church. One of my childhood friends was the son of an outstanding family. He served an honorable mission, came home got married in the temple, had children and was serving in the stake presidency. Then he was excommunicated, divorced his wife, very seldom ever saw his children or family (mom and dad and sisters). Has not set foot in a church since then to my knowledge. What motivated him and/or continues to motivate him to stay in his life. Satan is a different sort - he was focused solely on self-glory and aggrandizement. One moment he was one of the chosen ones and then the next he was cast out of heaven and lost all that he had. I don't think it meant much that he took so many of God's children with him except that they were each united in their bitterness against the Father and the Son. Their methods of fighting against God are many-fold, but they all tempt us to enjoy evil; that which is selfish, self-serving, prideful, and destructive of the physical body that he lost the opportunity to ever obtain. He does not need anyone to tempt him now in his fight or goad him to continue. I think you do have an interesting question about who tempted Lucifer first? What I take away from it is the eternal nature of things and that we have a finite understanding of eternity.
pogi Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) On 7/21/2018 at 7:35 AM, FunOnlineMan said: Is a satan figure necessary to the plan? Isn’t he superfluous? Wouldn’t god be necessary in the plan of salvation, whereas Satan could only be a byproduct of it? According to the scriptures, there must needs be opposition in all things for the plan of salvation to work- moral agency only works when we allow ourselves to be influenced by either the one (God), or the other (Satan). Quote Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other. 2 Nephi 2:16 Quote It must needs be that the devil tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents, D&C 29:39. Quote That which is evil comes from the devil, Omni 1:25 (Alma 5:40; Moro. 7:12, 17). Quote Everything good comes from God. James 1:17 Quote And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and now, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a dchild of the devil. For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil. Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him. Alma 5:39-41 While Satan himself is not critical to the plan, a Satan type figure - a source of evil influence, is critical. I believe that Satan is only a pawn of a more eternal order of darkness. He could not have been an agent unto himself to choose darkness without a tempter. If God/s is/are eternal then so to must needs be evil. There must be something in opposition to the eternal order of the Gods. Edited July 22, 2018 by pogi 1
Tacenda Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 13 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: I have seen examples of very faithful, stalwart individuals leave wife and family for a completely different way of life as they also leave the Church. One of my childhood friends was the son of an outstanding family. He served an honorable mission, came home got married in the temple, had children and was serving in the stake presidency. Then he was excommunicated, divorced his wife, very seldom ever saw his children or family (mom and dad and sisters). Has not set foot in a church since then to my knowledge. What motivated him and/or continues to motivate him to stay in his life. Satan is a different sort - he was focused solely on self-glory and aggrandizement. One moment he was one of the chosen ones and then the next he was cast out of heaven and lost all that he had. I don't think it meant much that he took so many of God's children with him except that they were each united in their bitterness against the Father and the Son. Their methods of fighting against God are many-fold, but they all tempt us to enjoy evil; that which is selfish, self-serving, prideful, and destructive of the physical body that he lost the opportunity to ever obtain. He does not need anyone to tempt him now in his fight or goad him to continue. I think you do have an interesting question about who tempted Lucifer first? What I take away from it is the eternal nature of things and that we have a finite understanding of eternity. Did you ask him why he did this? If not I would urge you to ask him. It may be that he doesn't feel worthy enough to be around his family or thinks he might be a bad influence, he may be self sacrificing. You don't know until you talk to him and people like him that have left the church. You don't know that he is fighting against God do you? He may be closer to God than you think. How do you know people like him or maybe you're not saying him in particular, is enjoying evil. I believe it's far far from that. I wish people like you would ask people like him or others or even me, why we do what we do and not be afraid to ask. They'll tell you the truth, and it will probably shock you to know you are very wrong in your assumptions. They me be even more Christlike than you think, they may be thinking their ex wife/husband and family don't want them in their midst for fear some of their problems, doubt or whatever may rub off on them. Just try it, try asking your friend to explain.
FunOnlineMan Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 18 minutes ago, pogi said: According to the scriptures, there must needs be opposition in all things for the plan of salvation to work- moral agency only works when we allow ourselves to be influenced by either the one (God), or the other (Satan). While Satan himself is not critical to the plan, a Satan type figure - a source of evil influence, is critical. I believe that Satan is only a pawn of a more eternal order of darkness. He could not have been an agent unto himself to choose darkness without a tempter. If God/s is/are eternal then so to must needs be evil. There must be something in opposition to the eternal order of the Gods. Wait, an eternal line of Lucifers? You sly dog, you’ve got my attention.
pogi Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: Wait, an eternal line of Lucifers? You sly dog, you’ve got my attention. Of course, this is all based on speculation as we don't have any direct revelation about it. But it does follow good Mormon theological reason. If there is an eternal line of Gods as Mormonism posits, and that each one obtained Godhood through the same process of mortality and opposition that we face, then the forces of evil must be older than Lucifer. And again, if moral agency requires that we be "enticed by the one or the other", then who enticed Lucifer thereby giving him moral agency to choose evil before he became the devil? What force gave us moral agency in the pre-existence prior to Lucifer's fall? There had to be one, or Lucifer could not have been an "agent unto himself", according to the scriptures. If there is a line of Gods, then there MUST be a line of devils, because a God could not be a God without opposition. The principle of opposition in all things is an eternal principle, or the eternal line of Gods could not be Gods. Quote For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility. Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God. And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. 2 Nephi 2:11-13 It's just another one of those mysteries to chew on... Edited July 22, 2018 by pogi
california boy Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: I have seen examples of very faithful, stalwart individuals leave wife and family for a completely different way of life as they also leave the Church. One of my childhood friends was the son of an outstanding family. He served an honorable mission, came home got married in the temple, had children and was serving in the stake presidency. Then he was excommunicated, divorced his wife, very seldom ever saw his children or family (mom and dad and sisters). Has not set foot in a church since then to my knowledge. What motivated him and/or continues to motivate him to stay in his life. Not sure what any of this has to do with my post. Perhaps you could explain why you wrote this in response to what I posted. 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: Satan is a different sort - he was focused solely on self-glory and aggrandizement. One moment he was one of the chosen ones and then the next he was cast out of heaven and lost all that he had. The question I asked is,"who tempted Satan to go against the will of God?" If he had no one tempting him, then why assume that we need someone to tempt us to go against God? I don't think you really answered that question. 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: I don't think it meant much that he took so many of God's children with him except that they were each united in their bitterness against the Father and the Son. Their methods of fighting against God are many-fold, but they all tempt us to enjoy evil; that which is selfish, self-serving, prideful, and destructive of the physical body that he lost the opportunity to ever obtain. And the question I asked is "What's in it for them?" Why are they willing to spend thousands of years working on turning others away from God? Why do they want others to be "miserable like unto themselves". I mean this is a very long time to work so hard on an issue that happened thousands of years ago. 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: He does not need anyone to tempt him now in his fight or goad him to continue. I think you do have an interesting question about who tempted Lucifer first? What I take away from it is the eternal nature of things and that we have a finite understanding of eternity. Yeah. None of it really makes any logical sense. At least for me. I can't really see an upside for Satan or any of his followers for a full time job lasting thousands of years just to add a few more souls to their numbers. And as I understand Mormon doctrine, because these souls that have been added have bodies, they will be more powerful than those without bodies. So essentially they are recruiting those that will rule over them. Does that make any sense? Love to have someone explain that concept to me. Maybe I have just never felt anyone outside of myself tempting me to do anything wrong. The sins I have committed seemed more to do with my own decisions and not someone manipulating me.
Unaffiliated Posted July 22, 2018 Author Posted July 22, 2018 6 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: If writing the reality of facts called "trolling" so be it. Instead of attacking me with "ad hominems" why don't you quote something I wrote as trollish? As for "stirring the pot", my colleagues do much better job than me, which I don't find threatening in any way, do you? Are you anti Mormon or Pro Mormon?
Tacenda Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Unaffiliated said: Are you anti Mormon or Pro Mormon? My guess is neither, he's been pretty respectful from what I've seen, ever heard of a middle way?
Unaffiliated Posted July 22, 2018 Author Posted July 22, 2018 9 minutes ago, Tacenda said: My guess is neither, he's been pretty respectful from what I've seen, ever heard of a middle way? You cant keep one foot in Zion and one foot in Babylon.
Eek! Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 30 minutes ago, Unaffiliated said: You cant keep one foot in Zion and one foot in Babylon. But you can be unaffiliated.
Unaffiliated Posted July 22, 2018 Author Posted July 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, Eek! said: But you can be unaffiliated. But you gotta vote for a candidate in November.
FunOnlineMan Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 17 hours ago, Unaffiliated said: Oh I've been a lurker here for awhile before I joined and your posts are always trying to stir the pot and with a username like you have it just further makes obvious you are just trolling on this board. Hey, do you think I’m dismissive?
Unaffiliated Posted July 22, 2018 Author Posted July 22, 2018 Just now, FunOnlineMan said: Hey, do you think I’m dismissive? I think you're fine and dont think you're dismissive.
FunOnlineMan Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Unaffiliated said: I think you're fine and dont think you're dismissive. This is very strange. I thought he was the nice one.
pogi Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, california boy said: The question I asked is,"who tempted Satan to go against the will of God?" If he had no one tempting him, then why assume that we need someone to tempt us to go against God? I don't think you really answered that question. Good question. I think my last post address this somewhat. 3 hours ago, california boy said: Yeah. None of it really makes any logical sense. At least for me. I can't really see an upside for Satan... Originally, Satan's mind was to take the place of God. He tried to do so politically at first. When that didn't work, he tried to thwart God's plan through deception (Garden of Eden). This makes sense from the theological perspective that God intended to give Adam and Even the fruit of knowledge from his own hand after they were properly prepared - as has been done in other worlds (which is my person belief). It was only after the garden incident that Satan became cursed. Satan was shocked at the cursing. He didn't expect it and was irate and furious at the "injustice". In the face of this sore cursing, Satan warned God that if he is going to curse him, Satan would seek open war in retaliation of the cursing. I believe Satan feels that he has been wronged and is seeking only to hurt his enemy by stealing his children from him. He is thinking "I am not going to go down without inflicting as much pain as possible upon you." History is full of people who have been blinded by darkness, hatred, and malice, in the pursuit of revenge - the only upside being their distorted sense of justice and in inflicting pain on those who have inflicted pain on you. Darkness feeds upon itself. It distorts truth, justice, and the sense of right. 3 hours ago, california boy said: Maybe I have just never felt anyone outside of myself tempting me to do anything wrong. The sins I have committed seemed more to do with my own decisions and not someone manipulating me. You probably feel the same way about the good decisions you make too right? Yet, there is a God who you believe in who influences you. He allows you to make those good decisions by filling you with light and by giving you opportunity to choose good. It is the same with the devil. We have natural tendencies towards evil and good. God and the devil simply provide us with food for us to choose from. Edited July 22, 2018 by pogi 1
Tacenda Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Unaffiliated said: You cant keep one foot in Zion and one foot in Babylon. I know Elder Uchtdorf was talking about something else, but the following snippet, is how I'd describe myself. My testimony is not final, it's shifted alot, but I am in searching mode, where before when I was all in, I never needed faith or to search. But that's just me, not saying Atheist Mormon is that way, but I'm sure he is still in searching mode, nevertheless. https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/07/always-in-the-middle?lang=eng "Being always in the middle means that the game is never over, hope is never lost, defeat is never final. For no matter where we are or what our circumstances, an eternity of beginnings and an eternity of endings stretch out before us. We are always in the middle." Edited July 22, 2018 by Tacenda
Unaffiliated Posted July 22, 2018 Author Posted July 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I know Elder Uchtdorf was talking about something else, but the following snippet, is how I'd describe myself. My testimony is not final, it's shifted a lot, but I am in searching mode, where before when I was all in, I never needed faith or to search. But that's just me not saying Athiest Mormon is that way, but I'm sure he is still in searching mode, nevertheless. https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/07/always-in-the-middle?lang=eng Being always in the middle means that the game is never over, hope is never lost, defeat is never final. For no matter where we are or what our circumstances, an eternity of beginnings and an eternity of endings stretch out before us. We are always in the middle. Do you believe the church is true? Why or why not?
Tacenda Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 8 minutes ago, Unaffiliated said: Do you believe the church is true? Why or why not? It's true in alot of ways. Today I went to my new ward's Relief Society, I've been in the new ward since last January and only went to Sacrament. I loved the lesson on ministering. I have been suffering in a crisis of faith for over 10 years and last year I became inactive after 30 years of full activity and I am slowly trying to be active again. Why I lost faith in the church being true is because of learning about JS's particular polygamy, before that I was temple worthy and always had a calling. Now I'm in a Compassionate Service calling and had some questions answered on how to best do that, and it was answered by attending RS today, so I was so glad!
USU78 Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 Just now, Tacenda said: It's true in alot of ways. Today I went to my new ward's Relief Society, I've been in the new ward since last January and only went to Sacrament. I loved the lesson on ministering. I have been suffering in a crisis of faith for over 10 years and last year I became inactive after 30 years of full activity and I am slowly trying to be active again. Why I lost faith in the church being true is because of learning about JS's particular polygamy, before that I was temple worthy and always had a calling. Now I'm in a Compassionate Service calling and had some questions answered on how to best do that, and it was answered by attending RS today, so I was so glad! 👍 [in lieu of like]
Unaffiliated Posted July 22, 2018 Author Posted July 22, 2018 25 minutes ago, Tacenda said: It's true in alot of ways. Today I went to my new ward's Relief Society, I've been in the new ward since last January and only went to Sacrament. I loved the lesson on ministering. I have been suffering in a crisis of faith for over 10 years and last year I became inactive after 30 years of full activity and I am slowly trying to be active again. Why I lost faith in the church being true is because of learning about JS's particular polygamy, before that I was temple worthy and always had a calling. Now I'm in a Compassionate Service calling and had some questions answered on how to best do that, and it was answered by attending RS today, so I was so glad! Learning about polygamy made you lose your faith in the whole church? Did learning about slavery in America make you denounce America and move to another country?
Atheist Mormon Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 5 hours ago, Unaffiliated said: Are you anti Mormon or Pro Mormon? Why would I be defined for as such? The only reason I frequent this place is because it is filled reasonably moderate people. I like people who don't get defensive right off.......Yes I am atheist but also consider myself a Utahn, spent most of my life there, I'm still part time resident of PC, I love the people there.
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