Guest Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 On July 18, 2018 at 3:06 PM, Free in Christ said: Believe me, I hear you. I've been on enough splits and temple squares to know how that feels. For clarity however, I wasn't trying to shout anything. The board tends to bold things that are italicized. I'll try not to do that. I have a question for you, and I apologize that this will sound strange, but please bear with me and it will make more sense: How many drops of potassium cyanide do you think someone could safely ingest? You are right, it is a strange question. So help me navigate where that question is going?
Free in Christ Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 15 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: Your comment here is self contradictory and disagrees with the Bible, such as John 3:16. Belief is an action. To scoff at that and say belief not required for salvation is to preach cheap grace. Just because belief shows action does not mean it is a work that we do. For example, may I ask, why do you believe that "Belief is an action"?
Doctrine 612 Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 Belief is another form of faith or trust. you are not saved because you keep the commandments of being good, you are saved because you humbled yourself to the God and trust in his works to save you. those that believe they need to be perfect by there own hands do not understand what perfection is. you are only perfect thru Christ. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: complete = perfection. 34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm. i keep the commandments because God has saved me. i have confidence in his promises every word, verse and chapter.
Free in Christ Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 15 hours ago, pogi said: Who said anything about obtaining perfection in and of ourselves though? Jesus did in John 17:23 "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." He perfects those who believe because He is in those who believe. How can having Jesus Christ in you only provide a "measure of perfection"? Is He sinless and perfect or not? 15 hours ago, pogi said: 17 hours ago, Free in Christ said: Is it possible there is a perfectly logical explanation for each of the verses you provided that would accurately describe those who have received His free gift of perfection? I have a feeling you are going to share... No logical explanation needed. I just believe what Jesus Christ said in His word.
Free in Christ Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 13 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Facts are truth, and truth has only one version, there are no "versions" of facts. You said it better than I could. Truth is universal and constant, never changing and doesn't really care what you or I think. Jesus Christ made the most astounding claim about truth in John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." Do you believe Jesus Christ is the truth? [In other words, those who have Jesus Christ have the truth, and those who do not have Jesus Christ do not have the truth.]
pogi Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: Jesus did in John 17:23 "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." You are not following. These words are not saying that we can achieve perfection on our own without the grace of Christ. Read carefully what I said: Quote Who said anything about obtaining perfection in and of ourselves though? 10 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: No logical explanation needed. I just believe what Jesus Christ said in His word. Great, then you accept that love is required for salvation, and obedience is required for love. 1
Free in Christ Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 13 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: You are right, it is a strange question. So help me navigate where that question is going? I know, I know, but think about this. Our works are to God's grace what cyanide is to the human body. It just takes one to completely destroy all of it. Consider Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." If even one of our works is applied to God's grace then salvation is no more of grace. Consider Romans 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Those who add their worthiness to God's grace unknowingly cancel out grace.
pogi Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: Our works are to God's grace what cyanide is to the human body. If that is true, it seems unusual that God COMMANDS us to work...don't you think? I mean, if it is so poisonous to grace, why would he command us to work? In fact, he equates our works with LOVE, and says that only those who love/work will enjoy His love. Edited July 20, 2018 by pogi 1
Free in Christ Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 36 minutes ago, pogi said: 47 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: Jesus did in John 17:23 "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." You are not following. These words are not saying that we can achieve perfection on our own without the grace of Christ. Read carefully what I said: Quote Who said anything about obtaining perfection in and of ourselves though? LDS theology teaches that through the atonement of Jesus Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Accordingly, for anyone to achieve His perfection one must obey the commandments, but ultimately it is grace that saves anyone. Is that close?
Free in Christ Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 13 minutes ago, pogi said: If that is true, it seems unusual that God COMMANDS us to work...don't you think? I mean, if it is so poisonous to grace, why would he command us to work? In fact, he equates our works with LOVE, and says that only those who love/work will enjoy His love. Is it possible, the command to work is for those whom the Savior already knows? Those who are His sheep, in Him, have eternal life, no longer under condemnation, passed from death unto life, etc.. Let me ask you, if you put on a policeman's uniform does that action make you a policeman? Does wearing a wedding ring make you married? Or, do those outward works reflect that which you have already become within?
pogi Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: LDS theology teaches that through the atonement of Jesus Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Accordingly, for anyone to achieve His perfection one must obey the commandments, but ultimately it is grace that saves anyone. Is that close? We believe like you, obedience is a manifestation of true belief. Salvation is conditional upon your belief/love. What you neglect however is that obedience is always a manifestation of true belief/love. Yes, if we truly believe in Him and truly love him, we must "work heartily" to obey his word, or we cannot be saved, because we do not truly believe/love. Edited July 20, 2018 by pogi
pogi Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 23 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: Is it possible, the command to work is for those whom the Savior already knows? Were the scriptures/commandments written for Christian's only, or were they written for all mankind? Who are those that the savior knows? Those who are his friends, right? Those who love him? Quote Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you (John 15:14) He that has my commandment's and keeps them, he it is that loves me. The one who loves me will be loved of my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him. (John 14:21). You see, obedience always come first, only then are we considered his friends, and only then can we experience the full manifestation of God's love for us.
Jane_Doe Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 5 hours ago, Free in Christ said: Just because belief shows action does not mean it is a work that we do. For example, may I ask, why do you believe that "Belief is an action"? Believing is an action verb. You and I have already both said this and agreed upon this. We have also both said and agree that this action (believing) is required for salvation. And that no one here believes that a person makes it to Heaven on their own merits. Christ and His grace does the saving This is all mutually agreed upon. Now, to say something along the lines "well Mormons believe that they're saved by works, but I know the Bible teaches that we're really saved by grace" is to grossly mis-portray both the Protestant and LDS view. Another horrible position is when Prostentant backs into the word game, "oh well you got to believe to be saved, but that's not a work because I defined 'works' as all of these things that aren't required for salvation".
Jane_Doe Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 4 hours ago, Free in Christ said: LDS theology teaches that through the atonement of Jesus Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Which in the next sentence are elaborated on to start with faith and repentance. Something vast majority of Protestants agree with (unless you want to tell me that you're one of rare one that thinks faith isn't needed to salvation). 4 hours ago, Free in Christ said: Accordingly, for anyone to achieve His perfection one must obey the commandments, but ultimately it is grace that saves anyone. And again vast majority of other Christians also agree with that statement. Having faith in Christ is not a license to sin and VAST majority of Christians agree with that. There's nothing to actually argue here.
Calm Posted July 21, 2018 Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, Free in Christ said: Just because belief shows action does not mean it is a work that we do. For example, may I ask, why do you believe that "Belief is an action"? Please define "work" if it is not "action". (My physics background sets up the definition for me, a force does work if there is displacement...or in every day language: if there is change, there is work). Edited July 21, 2018 by Calm 1
Guest Posted July 21, 2018 Posted July 21, 2018 On July 20, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Free in Christ said: I know, I know, but think about this. Our works are to God's grace what cyanide is to the human body. It just takes one to completely destroy all of it. Consider Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." If even one of our works is applied to God's grace then salvation is no more of grace. Consider Romans 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Those who add their worthiness to God's grace unknowingly cancel out grace. I understand that so many wish to reduce the entire Gospel to a handful of scripture(s), especially those penned by the Apostle Paul. Not to mention their overflowing love of scripture written to the, or in Romans. By so doing they ignore his other writings that warn that despite "Grace", the many warnings that those who commit quite a number of sins (sins which he lists) will never enter into the "Kingdom of heaven". Also those who quote, in very large font (once again, believing, it seems Mormons have bad eye site, or need to be yelled at) the words of other Apostles, and Jesus Christ himself. I grew up going to a one room Church, and our sister Church where there was nothing for the young. In fact, the reason there was no Sunday School, or any other classes for the young was simple, get them to the altar, and their work was done. Get them saved, and nothing they did later on in life mattered, because they were saved, and no sin ever committed would, or could change that. They also taught that all sin was the same, that there was no degrees of sin, lying was no worse than murder, there is of course no need to make other comparisons. But, if you wish to dismiss the need for anything, why is believing necessary? Believing is without a doubt the most difficult of all works, especially continuing to believe in a world filled with doubt. It was Paul who warned that the "works of darkness" (my term) can and will cause us to lose our salvation and Grace, least we repent. They are... Adultery Formication Uncleanness Lasciviousness Idolatry Witchcraft Hatred Variance Emulations Wrath Strife Seditions Heresies Envyings Murders Drunkenness Revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. These are the words of Paul, in the Epistle of Galatians 5: 19-21 Of the things of the Spirit, it says there is "no law", as he should, as the "Law of Moses" has and had passed away. It was also the Apostle Paul who taught of "Baptism of the Dead", a doctrine that every Church but ours has rejected. Most if not all, have declared that there can be no forgiveness after death. Jesus Christ taught that mankind may sin against Him, the Father, but for those who sin against the Holy Spirit, cannot be forgiven in this life, nor in the life to come. Jesus Christ also taught that "Not everyone that sayeth unto me Lord, Lord, can enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my Father in heaven. (Matthew 7:21) I would go on, but I have given enough for debate or discussion. Just to close, "Faith without works is dead", from (or by) James, as well as James 1:27 that speaks of the works of "Pure Religion".
Bernard Gui Posted July 21, 2018 Posted July 21, 2018 On 7/17/2018 at 1:11 PM, Free in Christ said: Is it possible the expression refers to working out the salvation which these have already received? After all, he's not saying "work for your own salvation", but do something with the salvation you have been given. What happens if you don’t do anything with it?
Bernard Gui Posted July 21, 2018 Posted July 21, 2018 On 7/17/2018 at 4:10 PM, Eek! said: Imo we are called to become "the same manner of man as Jesus" (3rd Nephi chapter 27). Imo that's not an honorary degree bestowed on someone who doesn't begin to deserve it. It will probably take a very long time, but when does the clock run out on "eternal progression"? “Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons, of evolving into a God.” First Presidency declaration Origin of Man 1909 1
Free in Christ Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 On 7/20/2018 at 9:17 PM, Calm said: Please define "work" if it is not "action". (My physics background sets up the definition for me, a force does work if there is displacement...or in every day language: if there is change, there is work). Is "think" an action verb?
Free in Christ Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 16 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: I understand that so many wish to reduce the entire Gospel to a handful of scripture(s), especially those penned by the Apostle Paul. Not to mention their overflowing love of scripture written to the, or in Romans. By so doing they ignore his other writings that warn that despite "Grace", the many warnings that those who commit quite a number of sins (sins which he lists) will never enter into the "Kingdom of heaven". Also those who quote, in very large font (once again, believing, it seems Mormons have bad eye site, or need to be yelled at) the words of other Apostles, and Jesus Christ himself. I grew up going to a one room Church, and our sister Church where there was nothing for the young. In fact, the reason there was no Sunday School, or any other classes for the young was simple, get them to the altar, and their work was done. Get them saved, and nothing they did later on in life mattered, because they were saved, and no sin ever committed would, or could change that. They also taught that all sin was the same, that there was no degrees of sin, lying was no worse than murder, there is of course no need to make other comparisons. But, if you wish to dismiss the need for anything, why is believing necessary? Believing is without a doubt the most difficult of all works, especially continuing to believe in a world filled with doubt. It was Paul who warned that the "works of darkness" (my term) can and will cause us to lose our salvation and Grace, least we repent. They are... Adultery Formication Uncleanness Lasciviousness Idolatry Witchcraft Hatred Variance Emulations Wrath Strife Seditions Heresies Envyings Murders Drunkenness Revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. These are the words of Paul, in the Epistle of Galatians 5: 19-21 Of the things of the Spirit, it says there is "no law", as he should, as the "Law of Moses" has and had passed away. It was also the Apostle Paul who taught of "Baptism of the Dead", a doctrine that every Church but ours has rejected. Most if not all, have declared that there can be no forgiveness after death. Jesus Christ taught that mankind may sin against Him, the Father, but for those who sin against the Holy Spirit, cannot be forgiven in this life, nor in the life to come. Jesus Christ also taught that "Not everyone that sayeth unto me Lord, Lord, can enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my Father in heaven. (Matthew 7:21) I would go on, but I have given enough for debate or discussion. Just to close, "Faith without works is dead", from (or by) James, as well as James 1:27 that speaks of the works of "Pure Religion". You bring up some really good observations and I can see why you think the way you do, why you left your previous congregation, etc. I can relate to a lot your points on a personal level. Things just didn't quite add up for you and you couldn't ignore what you felt was right or truthful - the "facts" you mention in the title for your topic. There are so many points that you make, but have you ever considered just focusing on the words of Jesus Christ in the Bible? I mean, He is the one that created everything around us and will be our judge anyway. If Jesus Christ plainly says the same thing multiple times in His sermons, would you be willing to agree with me that is "fact"? Fact isn't what I think or what what a theologian, scientist, historian or scholar thinks. Suppose you were hopelessly lost in a vast jungle and time is quickly running out, and you met a man who claimed he knew for sure the true way out of the jungle. He tells you that all you have to do is trust in your heart which direction to walk and that's the correct way to get out of the labyrinth of trails before you. When pressed a bit however, you discover the man is just a lost as you are and, even though he promises you and guarantees you that his way will get you out, all he really has is just a hope that his way will work. Ultimately, he's really just a lost as you are. But suppose you meet someone else who tells you he knows the way out because he planted every tree in the woods and is the landowner. Suppose he shows a map that clearly identifies which trail is the true way. Furthermore, he has a jeep and offers take you to safety if you'd just choose to believe his words. When it comes to subjects like the atonement, if we can agree that someone is misrepresenting the facts, which I think we clearly do, what then in simplest form are these "facts" if not the plain words of Jesus Christ in the Bible? Could we agree that IF Jesus Christ says it, then that is exactly what He meant and that is "fact"?
Free in Christ Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 16 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: What happens if you don’t do anything with it? James 2 tells us that man's faith can die if it doesn't have works because man's faith is his works.
Free in Christ Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 On 7/20/2018 at 2:01 PM, Jane_Doe said: Now, to say something along the lines "well Mormons believe that they're saved by works, but I know the Bible teaches that we're really saved by grace" is to grossly mis-portray both the Protestant and LDS view. Another horrible position is when Prostentant backs into the word game, "oh well you got to believe to be saved, but that's not a work because I defined 'works' as all of these things that aren't required for salvation". When you say "saved" what form of LDS salvation are you referring to?
Bernard Gui Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 3 hours ago, Free in Christ said: James 2 tells us that man's faith can die if it doesn't have works because man's faith is his works. So does the person choose not to do the works? Can he refuse to do what God is wotking through him? If his faith dies does he lose his salvation? Would that indicate he wasn’t saved in the first place?
Bernard Gui Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Free in Christ said: Is "think" an action verb? It’s something we can control and consciously choose to do. Energy is expended. Quote 1: a : a thing done b : the accomplishment of a thing usually over a period of time, in stages, or with the possibility of repetition 2: an act of will 3: the bringing about of an alteration by force or through a natural agency Edited July 22, 2018 by Bernard Gui
Guest Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 6 hours ago, Free in Christ said: You bring up some really good observations and I can see why you think the way you do, why you left your previous congregation, etc. I can relate to a lot your points on a personal level. Things just didn't quite add up for you and you couldn't ignore what you felt was right or truthful - the "facts" you mention in the title for your topic. There are so many points that you make, but have you ever considered just focusing on the words of Jesus Christ in the Bible? I mean, He is the one that created everything around us and will be our judge anyway. If Jesus Christ plainly says the same thing multiple times in His sermons, would you be willing to agree with me that is "fact"? Fact isn't what I think or what what a theologian, scientist, historian or scholar thinks. Suppose you were hopelessly lost in a vast jungle and time is quickly running out, and you met a man who claimed he knew for sure the true way out of the jungle. He tells you that all you have to do is trust in your heart which direction to walk and that's the correct way to get out of the labyrinth of trails before you. When pressed a bit however, you discover the man is just a lost as you are and, even though he promises you and guarantees you that his way will get you out, all he really has is just a hope that his way will work. Ultimately, he's really just a lost as you are. But suppose you meet someone else who tells you he knows the way out because he planted every tree in the woods and is the landowner. Suppose he shows a map that clearly identifies which trail is the true way. Furthermore, he has a jeep and offers take you to safety if you'd just choose to believe his words. When it comes to subjects like the atonement, if we can agree that someone is misrepresenting the facts, which I think we clearly do, what then in simplest form are these "facts" if not the plain words of Jesus Christ in the Bible? Could we agree that IF Jesus Christ says it, then that is exactly what He meant and that is "fact"? The very posts to which you are replying, I quoted Jesus Christ directly, and made mention of other comments.
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