Anakin7 Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 10 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: Again, the answer depends on how you define "facts"? Are "facts" the opinions of the greatest Christian apologists, scientists, philosophers, historians or scholars or should "facts" originate from an authoritative source? That great christian apologist received his testimony viewpoint from The "authoritative source" The Holy Bible. Salvation Is absolutely Free but it Costs you your very life.
Free in Christ Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Anakin7 said: That great christian apologist received his testimony viewpoint from The "authoritative source" The Holy Bible. Salvation Is absolutely Free but it Costs you your very life. Are the opinions of great Christian apologists really "facts"? What if someone doesn't accept their points of view as an authoritative source?
Anakin7 Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Free in Christ said: Are the opinions of great Christian apologists really "facts"? What if someone doesn't accept their points of view as an authoritative source? They are if they are in concert with the True Christian exegesis of the scriptures. You mean like the Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, Zealots of Christ Jesus and His Apostles day ?. Salvation Is Absolutely Free, But it Costs you your very Life. Anakin7
Free in Christ Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 19 hours ago, Glenn101 said: That seems to be stretching the interpretation of that phrase a bit thin. If it has been given to you gratis, why would you need to work it out? The point is, is it possible there is another perfectly logical explanation for Philippians 12:2 other than the LDS interpretation? The verse fits my non-LDS epistemology perfectly.
Free in Christ Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 18 hours ago, clarkgoble said: Why do you think belief are decisions or choices? If I believe my wife when she says she loves me, what does that mean? It seems to indicate trust which has with it associated many acts because of that trust. What you are describing is the biblical term "faith". Faith is the substance - the tangible side - of that which you believe. For example, your wife telling you she loves you is an act of her faith most likely based upon her belief that you love her too. You can believe in something but never do anything (faith) about that belief. Just because your wife doesn't say "I love you" every time you walk by doesn't mean she doesn't believe she loves you. Belief can exist without faith (works), but faith cannot exist without belief because faith (works) can come from belief.
Anakin7 Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 True Biblical Faith [pistis] = allegiance, commitment, confidence, dedication, devotion, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, obedience, trust, and in the True Biblical context it is to The Lord Jesus Christ. Faith is a covenant word like Grace in the ancient world. Walking In the Light Of His Grace Anakin7
Free in Christ Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 19 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Question; Why do those who have different opinions of "Salvation by Grace", so often quote a few scriptures, and usually bold type or change font size, to the exclusion of all other scripture? Also, it seems as if those who do so are shouting at other posters. I am not suggesting that you are doing so, "shouting" (as I do not know you). But Evangelicals do this so very often to those who are Mormon on this and many other websites. Having said this, John 3:16, and other scriptures out of context are not the entire Gospel. Also, no Mormon believes that he or she can save themselves by works alone, or at all. Without the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ we are, as Paul said, "we all men most miserable". Believe me, I hear you. I've been on enough splits and temple squares to know how that feels. For clarity however, I wasn't trying to shout anything. The board tends to bold things that are italicized. I'll try not to do that. I have a question for you, and I apologize that this will sound strange, but please bear with me and it will make more sense: How many drops of potassium cyanide do you think someone could safely ingest?
Anakin7 Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 So Why do LDS Christians [ or any non LDS Christians ] keep the commandments ?. Did Jesus Intend UsTo Literally Obey about what He taught about His Commandments ?. http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Did-Jesus-Intend.html Salvation Is absolutely Free, But It costs us our very lives.
Free in Christ Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 17 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: Belief is an action. "" "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Belief is an action. The Gospel is about this action: believing in Christ and being saved. I agree. In fact, belief is an action verb. However, according to the Bible, God will only grant His righteousness to those who believe, but do not work. The Savior explains how this is possible in John 6:29.
Anakin7 Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: Believe me, I hear you. I've been on enough splits and temple squares to know how that feels. For clarity however, I wasn't trying to shout anything. The board tends to bold things that are italicized. I'll try not to do that. I have a question for you, and I apologize that this will sound strange, but please bear with me and it will make more sense: How many drops of potassium cyanide do you think someone could safely ingest? Believe me, i hear you to Free in Christ, i to for years have been on enough teamups and splits and various LDS and non LDS spiritual events, and I to know the feeling. I used to raise my voice in my younger years. By the power of The Priesthood of God I could be healed if one were to offer me as such. Have a True Grace empowered day. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited July 18, 2018 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Free in Christ said: I agree. In fact, belief is an action verb. However, according to the Bible, God will only grant His righteousness to those who believe, but do not work. The Savior explains how this is possible in John 6:29. Yes in the ancient Biblical world ones "Belief" in Christ is the indispensable "work" God calls for, the one that leads to eternal life [From my NIV note on John 6:29]. Walking In The Light of His True Grace Anakin7
Free in Christ Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Anakin7 said: Believe me, i hear you to Free in Christ, i to for years have been on enough teacups and splits and various LDS and non LDS spiritual events, and I to know the feeling. I used to raise my voice in my younger years. By the power of The Priesthood of God I could be healed if one were to offer me as such. Have a True Grace empowered day. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Haha, oh gosh. And remember the very first time you tried your best to clear your throat in front of everyone and just read the words "Oh God, the eternal...um...Father.." and try to finish, knowing the Bishop would tell you to do it over? Oh gosh. Yep - that was me! So I'd love to discuss "true grace", but think that might derail this topic.
Anakin7 Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: Haha, oh gosh. And remember the very first time you tried your best to clear your throat in front of everyone and just read the words "Oh God, the eternal...um...Father.." and try to finish, knowing the Bishop would tell you to do it over? Oh gosh. Yep - that was me! So I'd love to discuss "true grace", but think that might derail this topic. I repented and fixed my uuuummmmm teamups.
pogi Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 20 hours ago, Eek! said: Imo we are called to become "the same manner of man as Jesus" (3rd Nephi chapter 27). Imo that's not an honorary degree bestowed on someone who doesn't begin to deserve it. It will probably take a very long time, but when does the clock run out on "eternal progression"? You don't claim to be a Mormon anymore, but you seem to be so heavily influenced by Mormonism that I will count you as a brother in the faith, in my book... If that is ok with you. 1
Anakin7 Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 Will come back to this when time allows, must go help my wife with True Faith [pistis] by way of True Grace Empowerment. The Atonement It Is the Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Eek! Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 32 minutes ago, pogi said: You don't claim to be a Mormon anymore, but you seem to be so heavily influenced by Mormonism that I will count you as a brother in the faith, in my book... If that is ok with you. You figured me out, brother. I'm really just a sheep in wolf's clothing. Seriously (or at least slightly moreso), imo Mormonism has the best cafeteria out there, with some really delicious offerings. Not being a member lets me pick and choose the parts that ring true to me, without there being the slightest pressure to go along with the parts that don't. 1
pogi Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 22 minutes ago, Eek! said: You figured me out, brother. I'm really just a sheep in wolf's clothing. Seriously (or at least slightly moreso), imo Mormonism has the best cafeteria out there, with some really delicious offerings. Not being a member lets me pick and choose the parts that ring true to me, without there being the slightest pressure to go along with the parts that don't. I pick and choose too..we all do really. I just try not to let the sociocultural pressures get to me. 2
Jane_Doe Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 3 hours ago, Free in Christ said: I agree. In fact, belief is an action verb. However, according to the Bible, God will only grant His righteousness to those who believe, but do not work. The Savior explains how this is possible in John 6:29. Let's step away from fancy words right now, and just speak layman style. LDS believe that God requires action on our part (see the above post about belief being an action). Do you agree?
Free in Christ Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 19 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: LDS believe that God requires action on our part (see the above post about belief being an action). Do you agree? Yes, I agree with you Jane_Doe. This is what LDS theology teaches and what most LDS members accept as truth/fact. I used to believe this as well, but after closer examination of the Bible - particularly the words of Jesus Christ - I now believe very differently. For example, while I still believe God requires action (works) for eternal life, I believe Jesus Christ provides that which God requires. God requires perfection and Jesus Christ provides. See how simple? That's why I missed it for so many years.
pogi Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 6 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: God requires perfection and Jesus Christ provides. I agree. But Christ only provides the measure of perfection/redemption to those who love him. Quote Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me early shall find me. Quote John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Quote John 14:15, 21-23 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Quote John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love. Quote John 16:27 For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came from God. Quote 2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. 3
Free in Christ Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 1 hour ago, pogi said: I agree. But Christ only provides the measure of perfection/redemption to those who love him. I was thinking Christ only provided His perfection to those who weren't perfect already and knew they could never become perfect through their own efforts. You know, harlots and publicans and such. Is it possible there is a perfectly logical explanation for each of the verses you provided that would accurately describe those who have received His free gift of perfection?
Jane_Doe Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Free in Christ said: Yes, I agree with you Jane_Doe. This is what LDS theology teaches and what most LDS members accept as truth/fact. I used to believe this as well, but after closer examination of the Bible - particularly the words of Jesus Christ - I now believe very differently. For example, while I still believe God requires action (works) for eternal life, I believe Jesus Christ provides that which God requires. God requires perfection and Jesus Christ provides. See how simple? That's why I missed it for so many years. Your comment here is self contradictory and disagrees with the Bible, such as John 3:16. Belief is an action. To scoff at that and say belief not required for salvation is to preach cheap grace.
pogi Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Free in Christ said: I was thinking Christ only provided His perfection to those who weren't perfect already and knew they could never become perfect through their own efforts. No, I agree. Who said anything about obtaining perfection in and of ourselves though? Quote And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men... That is all that is required. That is all that is expected. That is love. A couple good Christian sayings come to mind that fall in line perfectly with Mormon theology: "Do your best and let God do the rest!" "God expects us to do all we can, then He will do what we can't!" 1 hour ago, Free in Christ said: Is it possible there is a perfectly logical explanation for each of the verses you provided that would accurately describe those who have received His free gift of perfection? I have a feeling you are going to share... Edited July 19, 2018 by pogi 1
Calm Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Free in Christ said: I was thinking Christ only provided His perfection to those who weren't perfect already and knew they could never become perfect through their own efforts. I have never met anyone who thinks they are perfect now and no one who ever stated they believed they could become perfect through their own efforts alone, though .I suppose some might have thought that way. Edited July 19, 2018 by Calm 1
Guest Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 On July 18, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Free in Christ said: Again, the answer depends on how you define "facts"? Are "facts" the opinions of the greatest Christian apologists, scientists, philosophers, historians or scholars or should "facts" originate from an authoritative source? Facts are truth, and truth has only one version, there are no "versions" of facts.
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