Two adults should be present when teaching children OR YOUTH

[readstoomuch]

I figured since I know myself they would be unfounded.  Is that okay? I can’t say the term unfounded accusations?  I have had personal knowledge about a number of cases where someone has been accused of sexual abuse.  Several of those were verified by a physician as not having been sexually abused.  I don’t even want to start talking about couples going through a divorce and the accusations that fly back and forth.  No one wants there to be abuse.  The ends we have to go to seem severe.  Missionaries can’t hold small children.  Not even for a poor mom struggling with several kids.  My main point was that the policy has put many wards in an untenable position.

Edited May 26, 2018 by readstoomuch

[Danzo]

6 hours ago, changed said:

 

Two-deep policies do work, and do deter predators.  

It would appear, from your statistics, that they aren't working.

Otherwise you would expect the number of victims to be on the decline as a result of these policies being implemented.

Do you have evidence of declining rates of child abuse as a result of these policies?

I would expect that at best that we are only changing their location.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Danzo

[amo]

Wow, I'm surprised to see how fast some of your units have adopted & put into action this new policy. I like the different ways that have been used in cases where local reality hinders its full implementation--leaving the door open, merging classes, asking adults that are “in the lobby” or attending Sunday school or RS/Elder's quorum to be the 2^nd adult, sending children back to their parents—love this one!

Now, I'm afraid to say that not only in my ward but in the whole stake this isn't the case yet. When asked about it, one of the stake counselors said they were studying / analyzing it. So, and until now, we're still waiting for further enlightenment…

[changed]

7 hours ago, Danzo said:

It would appear, from your statistics, that they aren't working.

Otherwise you would expect the number of victims to be on the decline as a result of these policies being implemented.

Do you have evidence of declining rates of child abuse as a result of these policies?

I would expect that at best that we are only changing their location.

 

Victims are on the rise because porn is on the rise, and porn is a gateway drug that leads to abuse.  

If you do not believe 2-deep policies are one way to help, what solution do you suggest?  Criticize by redesign - if you cannot come up with anything better, then deal with what is.  

[changed]

11 hours ago, readstoomuch said:

I figured since I know myself they would be unfounded.  Is that okay? I can’t say the term unfounded accusations?  I have had personal knowledge about a number of cases where someone has been accused of sexual abuse.  Several of those were verified by a physician as not having been sexually abused.  I don’t even want to start talking about couples going through a divorce and the accusations that fly back and forth.  No one wants there to be abuse.  The ends we have to go to seem severe.  Missionaries can’t hold small children.  Not even for a poor mom struggling with several kids.  My main point was that the policy has put many wards in an untenable position.

 

I have personal experience of cases where the abuse was real, verified because the acts were videotaped.  The abuse had gone on many years without being stopped because no one wanted to believe the abuse existed, no one wanted to believe that a church leader would do such a thing.  I guess our beliefs both stem from experience.  

Edited May 26, 2018 by changed

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, changed said:

 

Victims are on the rise because porn is on the rise, and porn is a gateway drug that leads to abuse.  

If you do not believe 2-deep policies are one way to help, what solution do you suggest?  Criticize by redesign - if you cannot come up with anything better, then deal with what is.  

I'll take it that you don't have evidence they work to reduce abuse.

I will grant they work well to protect adults from false accusations , so they are of some use.  (To adults)

Personally, I suspect better training of the youth themselves, as well as training leaders and parents how to detect signs of abuse as well as prevention will help. 

In our ward council, it was discussed that the youth themselves often know before the adults, but don't know how and when to report when their peers are victims.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Danzo

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

I'll take it that you don't have evidence they work to reduce abuse.

I will grant they work well to protect adults from false accusations , so they are of some use.  (To adults)

Personally, I suspect better training of the youth themselves, as well as training leaders and parents how to detect signs of abuse as well as prevention will help. 

In our ward council, it was discussed that the youth themselves often know before the adults, but don't know how and when to report when their peers are victims.

I'm beginning to see a future where parents will no longer want their children at school or church. Society is getting so bad, or we're just hearing more, don't know. 

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, changed said:

 

I have personal experience of cases where the abuse was real, verified because the acts were videotaped.  The abuse had gone on many years without being stopped because no one wanted to believe the abuse existed, no one wanted to believe that a church leader would do such a thing.  I guess our beliefs both stem from experience.  

I also have personal experience both with real and false accusations, so I know both exist.

[Tacenda]

https://www.good4utah.com/news/local-news/resources-for-victims-of-sex-abuse-crimes/1294138688 All day they are speaking of sexual abuse today ending with the news broadcast tonight at 10 p.m. Utah has a 27% rate of abuse compared to 9% nationally. What is the deal!?! Maybe it's our laws are tougher, that's someone's answer when I've asked before. 

Also, I happened upon this interview with Kristy Johnson with Shawn McCraney.  The Trib has an article as well. https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2018/06/28/father-molested-his/ I hope the church leaders see these articles/interviews. The leaders need to stop hiding it. Hopefully in this day and age they are. 

 

[Walden]

I find it weird that when I was in the LDS church (back in the 80s & 90s), as men we were encouraged not to be alone with a woman. It was even taught to me the following example, and this was in priesthood class: if on a rainy night I pass a woman who I know from church who is stranded in her vehicle, and we are both alone, that I should not stop to help. I should proceed to the nearest pay phone (remember those?) and then call for help, or call another member of the ward to meet me and accompany me back to help this woman as a pair. Apparently there was concern about what a man and woman might do when not being monitored by another person, or at least the perception of what the two might be up to. 

Yet, we sent young men and women into the private quarters of the bishops office, behind closed doors, to be interviewed one-on-one about things such as sexual activity or masturbation practices.

The dichotomy is just weird looking back on it.

 

[Jeanne]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.good4utah.com/news/local-news/resources-for-victims-of-sex-abuse-crimes/1294138688 All day they are speaking of sexual abuse today ending with the news broadcast tonight at 10 p.m. Utah has a 27% rate of abuse compared to 9% nationally. What is the deal!?! Maybe it's our laws are tougher, that's someone's answer when I've asked before. 

Also, I happened upon this interview with Kristy Johnson with Shawn McCraney.  The Trib has an article as well. https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2018/06/28/father-molested-his/ I hope the church leaders see these articles/interviews. The leaders need to stop hiding it. Hopefully in this day and age they are. 

 

This is one of the saddest things I have ever sat through. 

[strappinglad]

I see a connection in this concern about abuse in church settings with the " stranger danger" emphasis in the past . Society was all aflutter about strangers abducting young children. The problem was , the vast majority of abductions were parents abducting their own children away from a spouse. The percentage of stranger abductions was tiny compared to familial ones. The same is true with abuse. The vast majority of abuse takes place in the home by close family members. Does society demand 2 deep adults in every home? Is society addressing the problem of homes of single moms where abuse happens by revolving door boyfriends? No, that would be picking on a protected class.

[carbon dioxide]

I can see having two teachers if there is just one or a couple of kids but if there is a half dozen kids in the room, especially teenagers, no abuse is going to occur.  No abuser wants that many witnesses running around.  Having too many classes with two teachers really will eat up the number of members for callings. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

I can see having two teachers if there is just one or a couple of kids but if there is a half dozen kids in the room, especially teenagers, no abuse is going to occur.  No abuser wants that many witnesses running around.  Having too many classes with two teachers really will eat up the number of members for callings. 

My understanding is it is more about grooming than actual abuse.  In two deep, the adult predator might be more cautious about what they say or suggest and that may prevent future abuse since it means less overall opportunities (no inviting to go somewhere else outside of class, no obvious attention to one vulnerable kid, etc...stuff kids won't notice as a problem, but adults will).