On Jewish/Mormon Relations

[smac97]

Cool:

Quote

Jews And Mormons, Quietly Forging A Path

BY STEVE LIPMAN March 28, 2018, 9:38 am

The program, which included leaders of the New York Board of Rabbis and the American Jewish Committee, was organized in cooperation with Robert Abrams, former New York State Attorney General, who has served as the Mormons’ liaison to the Jewish community.

The Mormon Church last week announced the Utah activities, which follow joint programs here and in Israel over the last two years, in a press release that called the visit “part of an ongoing series of relationship-building experiences and meetings.”

After conducting their dialogue work largely behind the scenes for several years, the Jewish and Mormon participants agreed that their relationship was strong enough to go public, said John Taylor, director of interfaith relations at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormon Church’s official name). “It was a natural decision,” he said in a telephone interview.

The increasing level of Jewish-Mormon cooperation, which parallels established Jewish interfaith programming with Catholics and Protestants, has developed under the cloud of criticism of posthumous Mormon “proxy” conversions to their faith of many Jews, including Holocaust victims.

...

Jewish and Mormon participants in the ongoing ecumenical programming said the church has abided by its two-decades-old agreement that bars such conversions of Jews or celebrities to Mormonism. They said proxy conversions that were done subsequently were the actions of isolated members of the church, without the church’s sanction.

“We take it very seriously,” said Taylor.

According to Abrams and Rabbi Joseph Potasnik, executive vice president of the New York Board of Rabbis, the church excises names of illicitly added baptism names from the online list once they are reported to church authorities.

I am glad to hear that the Church's efforts to abide by the 1995 agreement are being recognized here.

Quote

The Mormons have sincerely sought to improve their relations with the Jewish community, said Abrams, an active member of the Jewish community here who served as attorney general from 1979-93. He said he was approached a decade ago by Mormon attorney friends who said their church, which many mainline Christians consider heretical to standard Christianity, saw the value in creating a bond with another minority religion in this country.

“The church has enormous respect for the Jewish community and for the State of Israel,” Abrams said. “There are great similarities” between the two communities — including an emphasis on education, the importance of family, a tradition of humanitarian outreach activities, and a history of persecution, he said.

I am glad this respect has been demonstrated.  And acknowledged.

Quote

Abrams recruited friends in his Jewish circles on an interdenominational basis to take part in the Jewish-Mormon initiative. The joint activities included a 2017 visit of church leaders here, and a 2016 mission in Israel on the 175th anniversary of an early Mormon apostle’s journey to Jerusalem.

The Jewish leaders’ recent visit to Salt Lake City, during which the hosts arranged for kosher food at all meals, included time at Mormon welfare facilities and at the newly renovated Jordan River Utah Temple. In addition, officials of Yeshiva University have exchanged visits with their counterparts of the church’s Brigham Young University.

I wonder what it is like for observant Jews to visit a "temple" named after the Jordan River (which flows from a freshwater lake to a saltwater lake, like the River Jordan).  

Quote

Rabbi Potasnik said future activities with Mormon leaders would include discussions of the religions’ common theological beliefs.

Abrams, who has invited Mormon leaders to Shabbat dinners in his Manhattan home, said participants in the programming may sponsor future joint humanitarian activities and a biennial symposium.

Very cool.

Thanks,

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Cool:

I am glad to hear that the Church's efforts to abide by the 1995 agreement are being recognized here.

I am glad this respect has been demonstrated.  And acknowledged.

I wonder what it is like for observant Jews to visit a "temple" named after the Jordan River (which flows from a freshwater lake to a saltwater lake, like the River Jordan).  

Very cool.

Thanks,

-Smac

That's good to hear. I'll have to ask my sister what she thinks of visiting an LDS temple, Jordan River or otherwise. It's funny that, even after 33 years of marriage, my brother-in-law is still worried that the Mormons in the family are trying to convert his kids. 

Edited March 28, 2018 by jkwilliams

[Alan]

I have never been happy with the church retreating from proxy temple work for deceased Jews just because the Jewish lobby doesn't like it. If they don't like it... so what?

It is a religious practice we have, and they would be crying foul if we or someone else was trying to curtail their religious practices.

In my view the church should have told them to take a running jump.

[ksfisher]

Just now, Alan said:

I have never been happy with the church retreating from proxy temple work for deceased Jews just because the Jewish lobby doesn't like it. If they don't like it... so what?

It is a religious practice we have, and they would be crying foul if we or someone else was trying to curtail their religious practices.

In my view the church should have told them to take a running jump.

At this point in time I don't think it costs anything to be courteous.  There is enough other temple work to do.  And nothing is stopping members of the church who are of Jewish descent from doing temple work for their ancestors.

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, Alan said:

I have never been happy with the church retreating from proxy temple work for deceased Jews just because the Jewish lobby doesn't like it. If they don't like it... so what?

It is a religious practice we have, and they would be crying foul if we or someone else was trying to curtail their religious practices.

In my view the church should have told them to take a running jump.

You may not be suited for a career in diplomacy. 

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I wonder what it is like for observant Jews to visit a "temple" named after the Jordan River (which flows from a freshwater lake to a saltwater lake, like the River Jordan).  

Wouldn't that be like if the Community of Christ named a city in Missouri  "Palmyra" and then wondered how LDS felt visiting their "Palmyra" in Missouri?

Edited March 28, 2018 by cinepro

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, Alan said:

I have never been happy with the church retreating from proxy temple work for deceased Jews just because the Jewish lobby doesn't like it. If they don't like it... so what?

The Church didn't "retreat."  It "re-deployed."  The 1995 agreement does not prohibit church members from baptizing their Jewish ancestors.  The restriction is on proxy baptisms for "unrelated persons, celebrities and unapproved groups, such as Jewish Holocaust victims."

5 minutes ago, Alan said:

It is a religious practice we have, and they would be crying foul if we or someone else was trying to curtail their religious practices.

There are some unique aspects of proxy baptism that make it something a bit more than a purely internal religious practice.

Jewish groups are not objecting to our other "religious practices," which is significant.

5 minutes ago, Alan said:

In my view the church should have told them to take a running jump.

I think the 1995 agreement is good.  The Church went out of its way to be a "good neighbor," while still allowing proxy baptisms to proceed within the parameters within which the Church already wants us to operate (temple work should focus on our ancestors, and not on "unrelated persons, celebrities and unapproved groups, such as Jewish Holocaust victims."

Thanks,

-Smac

[cinepro]

We've come a long way from the Jewish missions of the 1950s...

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

I have never been happy with the church retreating from proxy temple work for deceased Jews just because the Jewish lobby doesn't like it. If they don't like it... so what?

It is a religious practice we have, and they would be crying foul if we or someone else was trying to curtail their religious practices.

In my view the church should have told them to take a running jump.

The LDS Church has also guaranteed that there be no proselyting or conversion activity in the State of Israel (one of the conditions for having the BYU Jerusalem Center there).  Jews are very sensitive about activities designed to convert them to Christianity.  Especially since the Holocaust, survival of the Jewish community has become a major issue.  The LDS are unique among Christians in not targeting Jews for conversion.  Mormons have a very hard time understanding that the Jews will remain a separate chosen people until the Second Coming.  The gathering of the Jews and Mormons to separate Zions is an important feature of prophecy.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Alan said:

I have never been happy with the church retreating from proxy temple work for deceased Jews just because the Jewish lobby doesn't like it. If they don't like it... so what?

It is a religious practice we have, and they would be crying foul if we or someone else was trying to curtail their religious practices.

In my view the church should have told them to take a running jump.

The purpose of temple work is to bring together all of humanity into one family of God.  Alienating part of the family when we don't have to seems counterproductive.  If we can't be saved without our dead, can we be saved without our living?  They will be our dead eventually.

"And now, my dearly beloved brethren and sisters, let me assure you that these are principles in relation to the dead and the living that cannot be lightly passed over, as pertaining to our salvation. For their [the dead’s] salvation is necessary and essential to our salvation, as Paul says concerning the fathers—that they without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect. (D&C 128:15)"

https://scottwoodward.org/redeemingthedead_wecannotbeperfectedwithoutdead.html

Edited March 28, 2018 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

Quote

March 28, 2018
 
“For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”  (Leviticus 17:11)
 
Yesterday, here in Jerusalem, huge Israeli crowds watched the reenactment of a full Passover ceremony, including the slaughtering of a Korban Pesach (Passover Offering). 
 
This is a definite sign that we are living very close to the time when Yeshua (Jesus) returns in these Last Days.
 
This NEW annual ceremony took place at the southern wall of the Temple Mount, where the ancient Israelites would ascend the steps to the Temple with their offerings. 
 
While Passover does not begin until Friday night, this reenactment with about 20 kohanim (priests) in white vestments (some blowing authentic Temple trumpets) is necessary preparation for the day when the Temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices will resume as God prescribed in the Torah (instructions).

Kohanim blowing silver trumpets and carrying lambs to the place of the
offering.  (Source: Temple Institute Facebook)

Religious (Orthodox) Jews from around the world who have been praying for the reconstruction of the Beit HaMikdash (Holy Temple) three times a day in their daily prayers along with even secular Israelis, watched the re-institution of the Temple's sacrificial service.
 
The Orthodox siddur (prayer book) includes prayers for the reconstruction of the Temple and that the MESSIAH Comes Now In Our Day. 
 
The service in the siddur for Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) even includes a description of the Temple sacrificial service carried out by the High Priest during Temple times.
 
These efforts are in keeping with end-time Bible prophecies.
 
The giving of Korbanot (sacrifices and offerings) are linked exclusively to the Temple service, and end-time Bible prophecy does indeed indicate that there will be a Third Temple when Yeshua HaMashiach returns.  (See Daniel 9:27; Ezekiel 40–48; Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:3–4; Revelation 11:1–2)

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Raingirl]

14 hours ago, Alan said:

I have never been happy with the church retreating from proxy temple work for deceased Jews just because the Jewish lobby doesn't like it. If they don't like it... so what?

It is a religious practice we have, and they would be crying foul if we or someone else was trying to curtail their religious practices.

In my view the church should have told them to take a running jump.

So you want Jews to respect your religious practices, but you see no reason to respect theirs.  How hypocritical.

I was an Orthodox Jew before I joined the church.  I am grateful that I didn't encounter the disrespectful and arrogant attitude on display here when I was an investigator, and instead encountered respectful members who also were not so narrow-minded as to refuse to see any viewpoint other than their own self-centered one, and also had the intellectual capacity to understand that other viewpoint. I am grateful for church leaders who have utilized their considerable wisdom and respect for others to put correct policies in place as they have realized that - sadly - their are those members who either lack the capacity to understand, or simply choose to be disrespectful. 

[jkwilliams]

6 hours ago, Raingirl said:

So you want Jews to respect your religious practices, but you see no reason to respect theirs.  How hypocritical.

I was an Orthodox Jew before I joined the church.  I am grateful that I didn't encounter the disrespectful and arrogant attitude on display here when I was an investigator, and instead encountered respectful members who also were not so narrow-minded as to refuse to see any viewpoint other than their own self-centered one, and also had the intellectual capacity to understand that other viewpoint. I am grateful for church leaders who have utilized their considerable wisdom and respect for others to put correct policies in place as they have realized that - sadly - their are those members who either lack the capacity to understand, or simply choose to be disrespectful. 

I very much agree that respect and humility are essential in our relationships with people of different beliefs and origins, and I don't quite understand the "If they don't like it ... so what?" attitude. IIRC, that particular poster used to be pretty solidly anti-LDS and just as dogmatic in denouncing the Utah church.

I was unaware of your Jewish background. That's pretty cool. I grew up in a neighborhood that was probably 40% Jewish (the local temple always used our LDS chapel for holiday services), and as I mentioned, my sister converted to Judaism (not Orthodox) before she married my brother-in-law. Needless to say, we have a lot of Jewish connections. Of their 4 children, their oldest daughter is very observant, with the others less so. My nephew recently returned from spending almost 2 years in the Israeli Defense Forces.  

That must have been a difficult transition from Orthodox Judaism to Mormonism. I can't quite imagine how that would be. I've known a couple of Mormons who have converted to Judaism, but not the other way around. In our family, nobody shunned my sister, but there was obvious disappointment. I was probably the worst, as I was on my mission at the time. But it's worked out well, and she has a good and happy life. I am glad you have found peace and fulfillment in the LDS church.

Edited March 29, 2018 by jkwilliams

[Alan]

11 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

.... that particular poster used to be pretty solidly anti-LDS and just as dogmatic in denouncing the Utah church.

 

I think you might be getting me mixed up with someone else.

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Alan said:

I think you might be getting me mixed up with someone else.

Apparently. Apologies.