Faith Vs Law of Attraction - compare and contrast

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I suppose they would be.

I like CA Steve's line of thinking here so I'll let him continue, but to go a different route for my own interest:

I do get the impression that members assume the attitude of being more blessed than everyone else.  I see members typically object when someone (me) points it out and says no one is more blessed, or no one is more favored by God over another, then the attitude comes right back soon afterward.  I wonder if that's God's will then.  If God seeks to give blessings to those who ask at a higher rate than to those who don't ask, then it must be God's will that a few select individuals are more favored by him than others, right?  

[Kenngo1969]

23 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

You seem to want it both ways here. 

If his will was to give us those blessings and we fail to ask for them then we have influenced his will negatively have we not?

How about a person who is in a coma and is  physically unable to request a blessing? Is her recovery based on someone else seeking God's will or has it already been decided?

 

 

Some blessings being made contingent upon our asking for them doesn't necessarily mean that all blessings are made contingent upon our asking for them.

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

You seem to want it both ways here. 

If his will was to give us those blessings and we fail to ask for them then we have influenced his will negatively have we not?

How about a person who is in a coma and is  physically unable to request a blessing? Is her recovery based on someone else seeking God's will or has it already been decided?

 

 

I think Kennego already answered this.  Like he said, I never said that all blessings are predicated upon us asking for them.  I'm really just quoting the bible dictionary.

"As soon as we learn the true relationship in which we stand toward God (namely, God is our Father, and we are His children), then at once prayer becomes natural and instinctive on our part (Matt. 7:7–11). Many of the so-called difficulties about prayer arise from forgetting this relationship. Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant but that are made conditional on our asking for them." 

But to answer your second question, no I don't really see that as influencing His will.  His will hasn't changed.  Whether or not we do His will does not negate His will.

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I like CA Steve's line of thinking here so I'll let him continue, but to go a different route for my own interest:

I do get the impression that members assume the attitude of being more blessed than everyone else.  I see members typically object when someone (me) points it out and says no one is more blessed, or no one is more favored by God over another, then the attitude comes right back soon afterward.  I wonder if that's God's will then.  If God seeks to give blessings to those who ask at a higher rate than to those who don't ask, then it must be God's will that a few select individuals are more favored by him than others, right?  

I think the scriptures are clear in that prophets have repeatedly taught for millennia that those who are obedient to God are more blessed by Him.  Those blessings are not necessarily what people believe they should be though.  Obedience does not guarantee wealth, privilege, or less trials.

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think the scriptures are clear in that prophets have repeatedly taught for millennia that those who are obedient to God are more blessed by Him.  Those blessings are not necessarily what people believe they should be though.  Obedience does not guarantee wealth, privilege, or less trials.

Obedience to God and asking God are two different things as I see it.  This raises different questions for me, though.

 Asking or obedience?

That is if someone asks and received blessings for asking Him, how much will God give (in terms of blessings) compared to one who doesn't ask, but is blessed for obedience?  

I'd guess you'd see obedience as drawing more of God's favor than asking, but I'm curious of your thoughts.  

 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I was reading a book about faith recently and it struck me how our approach to faith often takes a law of attraction approach.
In fact, I have come to notice this convolution of two ideas more and more.  I see it in internet memes about God's help, in people's recommendations about thinking positive, etc.
Terms like "prosperity gospel" are perfect examples of blurred lines.

I wanted to get some feed back from the group.  Where do you see the line existing?  Is exercising Law of Attraction principles just a more telestial application of the principles by which faith works?
Does God require positive thinking and affirmations of faith before blessings are sent?  Does positive thinking and self affirmation have any measurable effect if God is left out?
What say you?  Where is the line and what principles apply to both or are exclusive to only one?

Based on how Joseph Smith defined faith, I don't see much of a distinction between faith, the law of attraction, and prosperity gospel.

Quote

 

Lectures on Faith

Faith Defined; Lecture First:

11 Were this class to go back and reflect upon the history of their lives, from the period of their first recollection, and ask themselves, what principle excited them to action, or what gave them energy and activity, in all their lawful avocations, callings and pursuits, what would be the answer? Would it not be that it was the assurance which we had of the existence of things which we had not seen, as yet?—Was it not the hope which you had, in consequence of your belief in the existence of unseen things, which stimulated you to action and exertion, in order to obtain them? Are you not dependent on your faith, or belief, for the acquisition of all knowledge, wisdom and intelligence? Would you exert yourselves to obtain wisdom and intelligence, unless you did believe that you could obtain them? Would you have ever sown if you had not believed that you would reap? Would you have ever planted if you had not believed that you would gather? Would you have ever asked unless you had believed that you would receive? Would you have ever sought unless you had believed that you would have found? Or would you have ever knocked unless you had believed that it would have been opened unto you? In a word, is there any thing that you would have done, either physical or mental, if you had not previously believed? Are not all your exertions, of every kind, dependent on your faith? Or may we not ask, what have you, or what do you possess, which you have not obtained by reason of your faith? Your food, your raiment, your lodgings, are they not all by reason of your faith? Reflect, and ask yourselves, if these things are not so. Turn your thoughts on your own minds, and see if faith is not the moving cause of all action in yourselves; and if the moving cause in you, is it not in all other intelligent beings?

12 And as faith is the moving cause of all action in temporal concerns, so it is in spiritual; for the Savior has said, and that truly, that he that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved. (Mark 16:16)

 

The Effects of Faith; Lecture Seventh

2 As we have seen in our former lectures, that faith was the principle of action and of power in all intelligent beings, both in heaven and on earth, it will not be expected that we will, in a lecture of this description attempt to unfold all its effects; neither is it necessary to our purpose so to do; for it would embrace all things in heaven and on earth, and encompass all the creations of God, with all their endless varieties: for no world has yet been framed that was not framed by faith; neither has there been an intelligent being on any of God's creations who did not get there by reason of faith, as it existed in himself or in some other being; nor has there been a change or a revolution in any of the creations of God but it has been effected by faith: neither will there be a change or a revolution unless it is effected in the same way, in any of the vast creations of the Almighty; for it is by faith that the Deity works.

3 Let us here offer some explanation in relation to faith that our meaning may be clearly comprehended: We ask, then, what are we to understand by a man's working by faith? We answer: We understand that when a man works by faith he works by mental exertion instead of physical force: it is by words instead of exerting his physical powers, with which every being works when he works by faith—God said, Let there be light, and there was light—Joshua spake and the great lights which God had created stood still — Elijah commanded and the heavens were stayed for the space of three years and six months, so that it did not rain: He again commanded, and the heavens gave forth rain,—all this was done by faith; and the Savior says, If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, say to this mountain, remove, and it will remove; or say to that sycamine tree, Be ye plucked up and planted in the midst of the sea, and it shall obey you. Faith, then, works by words; and with these its mightiest works have been, and will be performed.

And through the whole history of the scheme of life and salvation, it is a matter of faith: every man received according to his faith: according as his faith was, so were his blessings and privileges; and nothing was withheld from him when his faith was sufficient to receive it. 

 

We see from this that all spiritual and temporal blessing come from faith, and faith only.  We create our own worlds through faith, as Bukowski likes to point out. 

I think we sometimes underestimate the power of belief in manifesting our realities. There is no denying the power of belief and visualization etc.   

It's pretty simple to understand actually - our thoughts affect our behaviors, and both affect our outcomes in life.  We are often limited only by our self-beliefs/doubts, our beliefs/doubts about what God wants for us, our beliefs/doubts about life and money.  We are also limited by our fear of both failure and even of success.  But as President Eyring states, "Faith always defeats fear."

When we overcome fear and limiting beliefs through faith, our well-being will inevitably improve and we will manifest more temporal and spiritual blessings in our lives.  This is true in the law of attraction, prosperity gospel, and faith. 

I do think that the law of attraction can take it too far.  I do think there are limits, and God's will is essential, but I do think we sometimes limit too much what God wills for us...to open the windows of heaven and pour out blessings that there is not room to receive it; that the riches of the earth are promised to us if we seek first the kingdom of God and desire to use them to bless and uplift others.  But faith works even when we don't seek first the kingdom of God...it may not work out in our best interest that way though as evidenced by this passage:

Quote

 

D&C 88
63 Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

64 Whatsoever ye ask the Father in my name it shall be given unto you, that is expedient for you;

65 And if ye ask anything that is not expedient for you, it shall turn unto your condemnation.

 

"Expedient" is defined by dictionary.com like this:

Quote

1. tending to promote some proposed or desired object; fit or suitable for the purpose; proper under the circumstances:
It is expedient that you go.
2. conducive to advantage or interest, as opposed to right.
3. acting in accordance with expediency, or what is advantageous.

Sometimes I think we limit what might be expedient or suitable for us.  I think the Lord desires to bless us more then we allow ourselves to believe, and thus receive. 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Obedience to God and asking God are two different things as I see it.  This raises different questions for me, though.

 Asking or obedience?

That is if someone asks and received blessings for asking Him, how much will God give (in terms of blessings) compared to one who doesn't ask, but is blessed for obedience?  

I'd guess you'd see obedience as drawing more of God's favor than asking, but I'm curious of your thoughts.  

 

I don't differentiate between asking and obedience.  When we ask God for something in prayer, that is an act of obedience in itself.

[stemelbow]

16 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't differentiate between asking and obedience.  When we ask God for something in prayer, that is an act of obedience in itself.

So it sounds like you would suggest that someone who is unfamiliar with God and therefore does not ask, can't be obedient to Him?  

[CV75]

On 2/22/2018 at 11:55 AM, JLHPROF said:

I was reading a book about faith recently and it struck me how our approach to faith often takes a law of attraction approach.
In fact, I have come to notice this convolution of two ideas more and more.  I see it in internet memes about God's help, in people's recommendations about thinking positive, etc.
Terms like "prosperity gospel" are perfect examples of blurred lines.

I wanted to get some feed back from the group.  Where do you see the line existing?  Is exercising Law of Attraction principles just a more telestial application of the principles by which faith works?
Does God require positive thinking and affirmations of faith before blessings are sent?  Does positive thinking and self affirmation have any measurable effect if God is left out?
What say you?  Where is the line and what principles apply to both or are exclusive to only one?

Both yield knowledge (experience) and the resultant knowledge becomes a substrate for both faith and positive thinking and future knowledge. But faith is a spiritual process whereas positive thinking is a mental one, albeit interdependent processes.

So, I think we are talking about the line between the mind (element) and the spirit. Because they are so tightly connected and integrated (D&C 93:33), I would say the line would be the point where the soul can no longer exercise agency due to a lack of element, or functioning element, on one hand, or a lack of a willing or functioning spirit on the other.

As far as God’s requirements for blessings, it seems He has built a means to obtain good things both with (“at my hands”—D&C 132;5) and without Him (“management… genius [and] “strength”—Alma 30:17), but then we must choose to apply these resources in a certain way to have a fulness of joy (e.g. Jacob 2:18-19). Agency works in choosing to use either faith or positive thinking and the fruits thereof, but relying on the arm of the Lord and the arm of the flesh yield different results.

I think the messages from various memes might be construed from a spiritual or a mental perspective, whichever we choose!

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, CV75 said:

faith is a spiritual process whereas positive thinking is a mental one, albeit interdependent processes.

So, I think we are talking about the line between the mind (element) and the spirit. Because they are so tightly connected and integrated (D&C 93:33), I would say the line would be the point where the soul can no longer exercise agency due to a lack of element, or functioning element, on one hand, or a lack of a willing or functioning spirit on the other.

So you believe positive thinking (the mind) is required in order to exercise the fruits of faith (the spirit).
That having faith in God only produces results when the mortal mind in all its weakness believes.

Doubt is the opposite of faith according to scripture.  But does doubt of the mind cancel out faith in our hearts?

[CV75]

20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So you believe positive thinking (the mind) is required in order to exercise the fruits of faith (the spirit).
That having faith in God only produces results when the mortal mind in all its weakness believes.

Doubt is the opposite of faith according to scripture.  But does doubt of the mind cancel out faith in our hearts?

Just the opposite: since the fruits of faith are knowledge and experience, and faith can be exercised and its fruits achieved without a physical body, neither a mind nor positive thinking are required to obtain knowledge and faith. That was the case in the pre-mortal restate, and in slightly different way, the spirit world after the spirit and body are separated. In this mortal life, with the two so tightly bound together, the soul cannot fully exercise agency without element or functioning element or without a willing or functioning spirit.

I think having faith in God only produces results when the spirit in all our weakness believes. We can be innately weak in spirit, or certain elemental challenges (mind and body--Mosiah 2;11) may challenge our faith. The results may not always be what we anticipate, and as the brother of Jared experienced, the results may not always be what either we or God anticipate, either!

So yes, I think doubt of the mind can affect the faith in our hearts, if we let it. I also think positive thinking can effect (both positively and negatively, and also if we let it) the faith in our hearts, but I don't think God fundamentally requires it to be positive per se. I believe He requires faith of the spirit first and foremost. His grace helps those with challenges in the way Nephi described. Perhaps grace can in some cases enable positive thinking when it is needed, and when He knows it will free up the person's faith from impediments he has no control over.

[Maidservant]

Pogi beat me to it, but I recall Joseph Smith talking about faith as a principle--THE principle--of creation.

In my opinion and as I have read the scriptures in my understanding, I do not equate 'faith' with 'fervent wishing'.  Faith is following the Law of the Harvest.  Faith requires more work on our part, not less.  It means that something is so worth it that we give our all, planting seeds in the ground of God, and nourishing them, and trusting that if we plant a strawberry seed, we may have the strawberry in due time.  (But requires weeding, watering, fertilizing, fencing out the critters, etc--ALL ACTS OF FAITH and a lot of dern work.) (<<< metaphor for 'spiritual' work also)

God may lift us to be able to do more than we can on our own, but he is not a wish granter, but rather a 'learn your choices and freedom' teacher.

Law of Attraction is also often misunderstood as fervently wishing, but it is also a Law of the Harvest scenario.

Both faith and law of attraction are principles of energy (spirit), so one needs to bring the spirit of God in one's life in order to experience those consequences (harvest); one needs to bring the spirit of money into ones life for those consequences; the spirit of healthy relationships, for those consequences; etc.  And bringing the spirit in requires some action.

As D&C says, if we want a blessing, we follow the law of that blessing.

On the other hand, we don't have to be frantic and feel that we are holding up the whole world; there is a universe of benevolence and blessing out there--a fertile ground--and the blessings are ready to be poured, already ours, already in store (THAT is God's will--already given)--but we need to turn the key so that our agency is preserved.