Popular Post ALarson Posted January 28, 2018 Author Popular Post Posted January 28, 2018 10 hours ago, kiwi57 said: Yes, that's it exactly. They're not a family. This is a great example of the type of statement that needs to stop if we want to open up communication and actually work on solving the hurt and damage. A couple in a SSM, and raising children, are very much a family. Would you really tell the children involved that they are not part of a family unit? 6
ALarson Posted January 28, 2018 Author Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, juliann said: I had to ask myself what I would do if I had a child who was suffering (setting aside whether it was right or wrong.) Realistically, I think as a parent I would have to choose between the church and my child. If it was the difference between a child killing themselves or my stepping away from one of the triggers, what is the priority. ...... I'm asking what I would do if I knew my child was slowly going under and one means of keeping her on solid ground was to leave the church so as to distance her from its policy on her, what would be my priority? Rather than debating the policy as if it were an administrative detail, maybe this is something we should all be asking ourselves and answering before making judgments for others. ...... I didn't say anything about resigning from the church. Again, if one of your children was suffering and thinking of suicide and leaving the church would make a difference, would you do it? It is a straight forward question and changing the question or the situation isn't an acceptable approach. This is what I want disclosed by anyone who thinks they can give advice to someone in this situation. Homosexual child Church policies are a factor in their suicidal thoughts Stepping away from the church would keep child alive to work on root problems These are some of the best, most honest and realistic responses on this thread. Thanks for expressing some realism and then asking how this issue would be to personally deal with if this was our own child involved. I hope you've caused many stop and really think about this topic, rather than just to immediately give the standard responses (I'm still reading the responses). I've asked myself these same questions and agree with your thoughts and comments (and many of Calm's as well.). Edited January 28, 2018 by ALarson 3
Bobbieaware Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Tacenda said: And I'll add more...murderers, sex abusers etc.... What you’re not getting is that the enemies of the Church haven’t tried to condemn and persecute the Church over the family issues you and Marginal Gains describe. But because gay marriage is the progressive establishment’s cause celebre du jour, the enemies of the Church will most definitely attack the Church with ferocity if they can find even a single child willing to allege the Church taught him to disrespect and turn against his parents. The last thing in the world the leaders want is for the Church to be accused of is placing a wedge between children and their parents. But now, thanks to the 2015 policy, gay parents will not be able to expose their children to the teachings of the LDS Church without doing so with their eyes wide open to the potential consequences of that decision. Pure common sense. Edited January 28, 2018 by Bobbieaware
Scott Lloyd Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: I would respond, but, due to that fit of plainly mean-spirited rage and hatred, I have been banned from the thread. I'm sure that you, of all people, understand why the Mods couldn't continue to allow the poor, defenseless little Snowflakes on the Board to be subjected to such vitriol. I don't get it. If you're thread-banned, how could you have posted this message? 1
Darren10 Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 4 hours ago, california boy said: Did you miss this part of my post? " Perhaps He just doesn't tell them to change the way you want them to change." You seem to think that everyone will be exactly the same in the Celestial Kingdom. That is where we differ in belief. There is a lot about Mormonism I still believe. But I don't believe all of it. I believe what the Book of Mormon, D&C and Pearl of Great Price has to say about homosexuality. Just like Mormonism, I don't believe everything that is written in the Bible came from God. I don't believe prophets are fallible. I think their guesses about how to treat gays are wrong. And yes, I believe they are guessing. I also have no problem with the church teaching something that is counter to what the Spirit confirms to me. I am not in charge of the church and it appears that God lets leaders stumble around with incorrect doctrine for quite some time. That concept is not against church beliefs. It shows that God works with the best of what he has to work with. But they are still human just doing the best they can. Just try not to take this personal that my beliefs differ from yours. It is not meant as an attack on Mormon beliefs. It is meant as a difference of opinion. “I don't believe prophets are fallible.” - Did you mean infallible? “I believe what the Book of Mormon, D&C and Pearl of Great Price has to say about homosexuality.” So there is not a set of moral standards upon homosexuals different than those is upon heterosexuals? Is that what you believe? So far as everyone being the exact same in the Celestial Kingdom, that’s complex. So far as I understand it, there is no disagreement or dissent among exalted beings but I do believe the beings will be different in some way. How I do not know. But I do think they will all live by the same moral standards and that the fundamentals of those standards are taught ot us while on earth.
Darren10 Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 On 1/27/2018 at 11:32 AM, ALarson said: I think this is relevant considering the discussion on the other thread (regarding the Weeds). I'm not a fan of anyone accusing the church leaders or the Mormon church of "murder". IMO, that is definitely the wrong word to use. I didn't see that used in what Josh Weed wrote (in reference to any accusation against the church). But is there anything that the leaders are teaching or doing that does contribute to some of the suicides by gay members? Here's the link to an article published in the SL Trib yesterday discussing a letter written to the First Presidency (from the parents of a gay young man who committed suicide): https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2018/01/26/commentary-the-mormon-church-needs-to-find-a-place-for-lgbt-children/ Some quotes from the article: Hi ALarson, I see you’re back. I originally asked if you can source who ever said that the Church is “murdering” gays. If you were nit saying that thrn could you explsin what you meant. Since you could be referring to me I am interested in a source and / or explanation. Thank you.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Rain said: I actually would prefer to go with the line by line when I respond. Then you should do it. It is a much clearer and more reader-friendly way. Quote What I have found when I read posts like that from many different people is that I FEEL like they haven't actually listened to me. That they were just waiting to respond and get their opinion in. When I recognized how it made me feel then I realized that it actually applied to me as well. I was listening to respond, not to actually listen Generally speaking, this has not been my impression. If it ever were, well, I feel perfectly capable of dealing with it in one or more response posts. On the contrary, by taking a point at a time and dealing with it via an interlinear response, one is less apt, not more apt, it seems to me, to brush aside a comment in an over-anxious urge to "get [his] opinion in." And I don't see Smac97 succumbing to such an urge. In fact, of all the posters I have observed on this message board, he is the most adept at giving thorough, relevant, coherent, thoughtful and on-point responses. california boy's attack on him several posts ago was highly misplaced. and unwarranted. Edited January 28, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 2
ALarson Posted January 28, 2018 Author Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Darren10 said: Hi ALarson, I see you’re back. I originally asked if you can source who ever said that the Church is “murdering” gays. If you were nit saying that thrn could you explsin what you meant. Since you could be referring to me I am interested in a source and / or explanation. Thank you. It appears that kiwi was banned from the thread for stating that: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70130-arbitrary-and-capricious-decisions/?do=findComment&comment=1209790558 Quote "As I recall, it was a one line comment that expressed disagreement with the Weed’s accusation that the Church Is guilty of murder. Kiwi’s comment was specifically targeted at the Weed’s accusation and was not in any way aimed at anyone who participates on this board." And then one example from you (I'm not combing through the other thread for more): http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70117-an-update-from-josh-and-lolly-weed/?do=findComment&comment=1209790127 Quote "Really? After they attack the LDS Church for killing people?" And, just a reminder as to what I actually stated in the OP: Quote I'm not a fan of anyone accusing the church leaders or the Mormon church of "murder". IMO, that is definitely the wrong word to use. I didn't see that used in what Josh Weed wrote (in reference to any accusation against the church). So, I'm not real sure what your beef is? (I was stating that I did not see the word "murder" used in anything Josh Weed posted, so I did not like seeing any accusations that he had. I wanted to keep that type of extreme accusation out of this discussion). Edited January 28, 2018 by ALarson
california boy Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 48 minutes ago, Darren10 said: “I don't believe prophets are fallible.” - Did you mean infallible? Yes. Thank you for your correction. 48 minutes ago, Darren10 said: “I believe what the Book of Mormon, D&C and Pearl of Great Price has to say about homosexuality.” So there is not a set of moral standards upon homosexuals different than those is upon heterosexuals? Is that what you believe? Exactly. No sex before marriage. No sex outside of that marriage. For me, that has been the gold standard of the Law of Chastity. Teachings against homosexuality seem to be rarely talked about and when it is talked about it seems to be more of a cultural comment. I think we have a better understanding of homosexuality than even 40 years ago, let alone a couple of thousand years ago. I see nothing wrong morally with a gay couple in a marriage. But that is my belief, and I realize the church and most of its members have this whole homosexual relations being a huge sin thing. Thats ok. We can disagree. 48 minutes ago, Darren10 said: So far as everyone being the exact same in the Celestial Kingdom, that’s complex. So far as I understand it, there is no disagreement or dissent among exalted beings but I do believe the beings will be different in some way. How I do not know. But I do think they will all live by the same moral standards and that the fundamentals of those standards are taught ot us while on earth. When it comes to the Celestial Kingdom, I don't think any of us have much of an idea what that experience will be like. God has chosen to reveal very little about it. Not quite ready to die to find out. But when I do die, I think it will be an amazing experience. 1
Darren10 Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 28 minutes ago, ALarson said: It appears that kiwi was banned from the thread for stating that: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70130-arbitrary-and-capricious-decisions/?do=findComment&comment=1209790558 And then one example from you (I'm not combing through the other thread for more): http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70117-an-update-from-josh-and-lolly-weed/?do=findComment&comment=1209790127 And, just a reminder as to what I actually stated in the OP: So, I'm not real sure what your beef is? (I was stating that I did not see the word "murder" used in anything Josh Weed posted, so I did not like seeing any accusations that he had. I wanted to keep that type of extreme accusation out of this discussion). Thanks. I wanted to be clear that I did not use the word “murder” but cited directly from Josh that he accused the LDS Church if “killing” gays from their teachings on morality. Now, since you comibined my citation with Kiwi’s saying that Josh accused thr Church of “murder” , do you find what I said equally offensive as Kiwi’s?
ALarson Posted January 28, 2018 Author Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Darren10 said: Thanks. I wanted to be clear that I did not use the word “murder” but cited directly from Josh that he accused the LDS Church if “killing” gays from their teachings on morality. Now, since you comibined my citation with Kiwi’s saying that Josh accused thr Church of “murder” , do you find what I said equally offensive as Kiwi’s? I was simply stating that I'd like to keep that extreme accusation out of this discussion (that the church is "killing gays" or "murdering gays") and asked that we focus our discussion on this: Quote .... is there anything that the leaders are teaching or doing that does contribute to some of the suicides by gay members? And this: Quote We can't deny the fact that these suicides are happening and that the current teachings are at least a part of some of the pain that led to suicide (we have the writings left from those who actually did commit suicide and why they felt as they did....). Are there any changes that could be made which would help stop at least some of the suicides occurring among the gay members of the church? I'm not accusing anyone here, just asking others to be open minded and discuss And: Quote I know many factors are involved when someone takes their own life. But, we have enough notes left behind by those gay members of the church who have committed suicide (along with first hand statements from those who were personally working with them), to at least discuss how the church's teachings and policies contributed to their depression and suicide. Edited January 28, 2018 by ALarson 1
carbon dioxide Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: What you’re not getting is that the enemies of the Church haven’t tried to condemn and persecute the Church over the family issues you and Marginal Gains describe. But because gay marriage is the progressive establishment’s cause celebre du jour, the enemies of the Church will most definitely attack the Church with ferocity if they can find even a single child willing to allege the Church taught him to disrespect and turn against his parents. The last thing in the world the leaders want is for the Church to be accused of is placing a wedge between children and their parents. But now, thanks to the 2015 policy, gay parents will not be able to expose their children to the teachings of the LDS Church without doing so with their eyes wide open to the potential consequences of that decision. Pure common sense. Yes but there is a fix for that. That being for the parents to sign a declaration that they understand the Church position and that the position will not change and they agree to the child being baptized anyway. Such a document would then bring ridicule on the parents instead of the church since the parents made that choice ahead of time and full warning of what to expect. Edited January 29, 2018 by carbon dioxide
Popular Post pogi Posted January 29, 2018 Popular Post Posted January 29, 2018 I found this to be timely - just 11 days ago, Governor Herbert announced a task force addressing the issue of teen suicide. He set a hard deadline of February 15 for recommendations from the task force to be ready for consideration at the 2018 Utah Legislative Session. Quote The task force will be chaired by Lt. Gov. Spencer Cox and Utah State Rep. Steven Eliason and will include, among others, Sen. Stuart Adams of the Utah State Senate; Sydnee ****son, Utah State superintendent of public instruction; Dr. Doug Gray from the University of Utah; A. Marc Harrison, CEO and president of Intermountain Healthcare; Taryn Aiken Hiatt, area director of the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention; Gail Miller, owner and chair of the Larry H. Miller Group; Kim Myers, suicide prevention coordinator, Utah Department of Human Services; Elder Ronald A. Rasband of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; Tanya Vea, vice president and general manager of KSL; Ross Van Vraken, executive director of Utah Neuropsychiatric Institute at the University of Utah; and Troy Williams, executive director of Equality Utah. The fact that the Church, Equality Utah, and other influential members of the community are all sitting down together to address this concerning issue, should stand a strong message to both sides in this conversation. The fact that the church is willing to sit and work with Equality Utah in solving this problem says a lot. I see a lot of finger pointing and defensive positioning on this thread. We need to learn a lesson from our higher ups and be willing to lay aside our differences in an effort to address a common goal...to save the lives of our youth who need us! I get so tired of the bickering, the stubborn defensiveness, and the finger pointing from both sides. It won't solve any problems, but will only serve to drive a further wedge between us. The church is willing to admit that there is room for improvement, why can't we seem to do that on this board? President Nelson said in a BYU devotional: Quote We need to listen to and understand what our LGBT brothers and sisters are feeling and experiencing. Certainly we must do better than we have done in the past so that all members feel they have a spiritual home where their brothers and sisters love them and where they have a place to worship and serve the Lord. https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/m-russell-ballard_questions-and-answers/ I stand with him...we can do better! And on the other hand, those who are pointing fingers at the church. Let it go! The church is not going to change the proclamation on the family. Changing doctrines and policies are not realistic. If you want friendly cooperation, lets find mutual ground that we can address these issues from. To both sides I say, step away from offensive and defensive positioning and try to meet in neutral, common ground. Because while you are all fighting on one side or the other, our youth are dying! Quote After the press conference, Elder Rasband said, “To those who feel alone, rejected, or marginalized, or who feel, for any reason, that taking their life might be the solution to their problems, know that you are loved, valued, and respected. Talk to someone. You don’t need to suffer alone. We love you and we need you.” “We are committed to doing all we can do, not only in our congregations throughout the state, but in working with all of you in every mode — church, school, society. We must all come together to face this issue,” Elder Rasband said. “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is going to be a very willing participant in the community effort to find answers to this very serious problem.” The church is willing to work with those on the other side, are you? And to those targeting the church, if you really want to make a difference with these youth, YOU NEED THE CHURCH on your side. Play friendly and realistic. 6
carbon dioxide Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 29 minutes ago, pogi said: And on the other hand, those who are pointing fingers at the church. Let it go! The church is not going to change the proclamation on the family. Changing doctrines and policies are not realistic. If you want friendly cooperation, lets find mutual ground that we can address these issues from. To both sides I say, step away from offensive and defensive positioning and try to meet in neutral, common ground. Because while you are all fighting on one side or the other, our youth are dying! The church is willing to work with those on the other side, are you? And to those targeting the church, if you really want to make a difference with these youth, YOU NEED THE CHURCH on your side. Play friendly and realistic. I agree on all of this. There are areas of common ground and areas that both sides will not give ground on. The LDS church is not going to give ground on the views of homosexual behavior and marriage. The LBGT side is not going to give ground on the view that gays can change and not be gay anymore. Once people recognize that fundamental positions will not be changed, they can stop arguing over it and then focus on areas of agreement. 4
Scott Lloyd Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 41 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: Yes but there is a fix for that. That being for the parents to sign a declaration that they understand the Church position and that the position will not change and they agree to the child being baptized anyway. Such a document would then bring ridicule on the parents instead of the church since the parents made that choice ahead of time and full warning of what to expect. You think a signed piece of paper is going to stop some parents from having second thoghts later and raising as big a stink as they can, including in the minds of their own impressionable children? 2
california boy Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 2 hours ago, pogi said: I found this to be timely - just 11 days ago, Governor Herbert announced a task force addressing the issue of teen suicide. He set a hard deadline of February 15 for recommendations from the task force to be ready for consideration at the 2018 Utah Legislative Session. The fact that the Church, Equality Utah, and other influential members of the community are all sitting down together to address this concerning issue, should stand a strong message to both sides in this conversation. The fact that the church is willing to sit and work with Equality Utah in solving this problem says a lot. I see a lot of finger pointing and defensive positioning on this thread. We need to learn a lesson from our higher ups and be willing to lay aside our differences in an effort to address a common goal...to save the lives of our youth who need us! I get so tired of the bickering, the stubborn defensiveness, and the finger pointing from both sides. It won't solve any problems, but will only serve to drive a further wedge between us. The church is willing to admit that there is room for improvement, why can't we seem to do that on this board? President Nelson said in a BYU devotional: I stand with him...we can do better! And on the other hand, those who are pointing fingers at the church. Let it go! The church is not going to change the proclamation on the family. Changing doctrines and policies are not realistic. If you want friendly cooperation, lets find mutual ground that we can address these issues from. To both sides I say, step away from offensive and defensive positioning and try to meet in neutral, common ground. Because while you are all fighting on one side or the other, our youth are dying! The church is willing to work with those on the other side, are you? And to those targeting the church, if you really want to make a difference with these youth, YOU NEED THE CHURCH on your side. Play friendly and realistic. Your second great post in this thread. Too bad your first post didn't get much discussion. I thought it was something worth talking about and added my thoughts to it.
california boy Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: I agree on all of this. There are areas of common ground and areas that both sides will not give ground on. The LDS church is not going to give ground on the views of homosexual behavior and marriage. The LBGT side is not going to give ground on the view that gays can change and not be gay anymore. Once people recognize that fundamental positions will not be changed, they can stop arguing over it and then focus on areas of agreement. Exactly. Now lets start talking about what we can agree on.
kiwi57 Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 5 hours ago, Darren10 said: Thanks. I wanted to be clear that I did not use the word “murder” but cited directly from Josh that he accused the LDS Church if “killing” gays from their teachings on morality. Now, since you comibined my citation with Kiwi’s saying that Josh accused thr Church of “murder” , do you find what I said equally offensive as Kiwi’s? ALarson admitted that he didn't see my post, which was deleted. He is eager to be offended by it, sight unseen, because I wrote it.
kiwi57 Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 11 hours ago, ALarson said: This is a great example of the type of statement that needs to stop if we want to open up communication and actually work on solving the hurt and damage. A couple in a SSM, and raising children, are very much a family. I don't agree. But you know that, of course. More to the point, you think my view should either be censored or censured, in order to make people feel better about themselves. They're not a family, but you think I should lie to them. 11 hours ago, ALarson said: Would you really tell the children involved that they are not part of a family unit? Nice attempt at emotional blackmail. 1
Jane_Doe Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 19 minutes ago, california boy said: Exactly. Now lets start talking about what we can agree on. Basics: all people are valued and loved by God. They should also be loved by other people. Sometimes a person does not realize their own value and takes their own life-- this is a tragedy. The causes of this tragedies are complex, we all need to figure out how to better reach out to these individuals. 1
kiwi57 Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 On 1/28/2018 at 10:30 AM, Bobbieaware said: Eliminate the 2015 policy and not long down the road there’s a good chance there will be a number of very well-publicized news articles featuring young men and women who are outraged and broken-hearted that before their baptisms at age 8 they weren’t warned they were about to join a church that was going to poison their minds against their own parents. These inflammatory and destructive articles will then be followed by inflammatory TV news stories that will decry the “hateful Mormons” who brainwashed innocent young children.” Then we can look forward to the proliferation of the multi-million dollar lawsuits claiming young and impressionable children were irreparably harmed by a church that callously alienated them from the affections of their own loving parents. Meanwhile the articles and TV specials will likely never once focus on the reasons why the parents allowed their children to be baptized. But if the parents are questioned they will simply claim ignorance. All it would take is for just one such sensational story to surface and the Church would receive tremendous harm, making miserable the lives of millions of innocent LDS Church members. The Church leaders are truly inspired and very wise because if such young men and women do join at 18 years of age it will be by their own fully-informed choice. Thanks to our inspired leaders there will be no opportunities for the enemies of the Church to charge that innocent children were lured into a supposed web of injurious psychological manipulation. QFT.
JulieM Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, ALarson said: This is a great example of the type of statement that needs to stop if we want to open up communication and actually work on solving the hurt and damage. A couple in a SSM, and raising children, are very much a family. Would you really tell the children involved that they are not part of a family unit? I agree. It’s very sad that there are some who still feel this way. Edited January 29, 2018 by JulieM
kiwi57 Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, JulieM said: I agree. It’s very sad that there are some who still feel this way. Why do you find it sad that there still exists a Church that has doctrines that you don't agree with? Don't you like diversity? 2
Darren10 Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 27 minutes ago, kiwi57 said: ALarson admitted that he didn't see my post, which was deleted. He is eager to be offended by it, sight unseen, because I wrote it. Well, what I read was that ALarson did not see Josh use the word. Josh did absolutely use the word “kill” so I think it's perfectly legitimate. If anything, ALarson should be offended at Josh, not you or I.
kiwi57 Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, Darren10 said: Well, what I read was that ALarson did not see Josh use the word. Josh did absolutely use the word “kill” so I think it's perfectly legitimate. If anything, ALarson should be offended at Josh, not you or I. I agree, but he also admitted that he didn't see my comment. http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70130-arbitrary-and-capricious-decisions/?tab=comments#comment-1209790553
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