Climate Change is false doctrine

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Christ already endured all of our pains, challenges, suffering.

That is not a response. That is a dodge.

8 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

What do you think of the comment made by hope for things? His comment is exactly what I am very worried about because many think the same thing. It is now more clear than ever that our religious freedom is being aggressively under attack. 

Someone wishing that someone's ideas did not exist is not an attack on religious freedom. I wish Scientology did not exist but I am not going to tear up the First Amendment over it. I believe religious freedom is in potential danger but, if it is, the real attacks have not yet begun.

10 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Pogi.  You told me earlier you are not a warming believer. I have a question.  Do you think like me that the federal government and the United States Senate Committee  paid twenty-two MIT scientists to attack renown scientist Richard Lindzen? If that is true it just confirms we are in the last days because we can see all false doctrine and corruption. We are seeing the scriptures being fulfilled. 

[hope_for_things]

9 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

A world without religious thinking would be full of slavery, abuse, immorality, pornography, murder. It's religion that makes us free and happy. Look at Costa Rica, it's one of the happiest countries on Earth, and it is very religious.  All we need is religious freedom to hope for things.

 

All those things would still exist with or without religion.  One difference would be that you won't have people using God as justification for committing heinous acts.  

[pogi]

9 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Pogi.  You told me earlier you are not a warming believer. I have a question.  Do you think like me that the federal government and the United States Senate Committee  paid twenty-two MIT scientists to attack renown scientist Richard Lindzen? If that is true it just confirms we are in the last days because we can see all false doctrine and corruption. We are seeing the scriptures being fulfilled. 

I don't know anything about such a conspiracy?  Do you know what their motive was?  Maybe they are just trying to save the planet by any means possible...who knows? 

Dude, there is corruption everywhere.  All it confirms is that humans are being...human (as they always have been).

I am not a man-made warming believer.  But I am probably greener then most liberals.  I know it's weird!

[SamuelTheLamanite]

13 hours ago, pogi said:

I don't know anything about such a conspiracy?  Do you know what their motive was?  Maybe they are just trying to save the planet by any means possible...who knows?

Only a handful of scientists are not bought by the government. Patrick Moore on the Steven Crowder show said the government gives millions to the scientists to push the climate agenda.

13 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

All those things would still exist with or without religion.  One difference would be that you won't have people using God as justification for committing heinous acts.  

But still the world is a better place thanks to religion and Christianity.

22 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yes it is

Edited January 31, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[hope_for_things]

10 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

But still the world is a better place thanks to religion and Christianity.

This might be too complicated a question to answer with any certainty.  There has been much good and bad perpetuated through religion throughout history.  

[longview]

On 1/30/2018 at 8:32 AM, pogi said:

I don't know anything about such a conspiracy?  Do you know what their motive was?  Maybe they are just trying to save the planet by any means possible...who knows?

In the seventies, they tried to stoke hysteria about a coming ice age and peaking of oil and natural gas.  So they wanted to impose onerous taxation on this scarce resource.   Thereby growing the power and reach of a massive nanny state, which was actually their main objective.

In the eighties, they switched gears and claimed that there will be "runaway" increase in global warming due to burning of fossil fuel causing too much CO2 to be added to the atmosphere.  Al Gore led the charge with his famous movie "An Inconvenient Truth" and stoking even more hysteria among elementary school kids and vapid college students.  This time they want to impose massive regulations on CO2 emitting economic activities and foisting a "Carbon Credit" scheme on the world to force sharing of emission permits (which facilitates global scale welfare funding of 3rd world countries).

Since then, their short term predictions have been proven to be embarrassingly completely OFF the mark.  So they have changed their terminology by calling any extremes in cold or hot weather events to be caused by "Climate Change."  They are still advocating for massive government controls to control society and to degrade the quality of life for the common people.

Who are "they"?  They can be a mixed bag of globalists, extreme environmentalists, those that desire drastic decreases in the world's population, advocates for a totalitarian one world government, those that want everybody to be "equal" AND equally poor, you name it . . .

[longview]

On 1/26/2018 at 1:42 PM, janderich said:

Here is how we know we are burning fossil fuels in excess...

This graph is NOT helpful.  You need to show correlation between temperatures and CO2 levels.  Scientists have determined from ice cores that increases in CO2 levels came AFTER warm periods.  Which would indicate that there is not much of a greenhouse effect, especially considering CO2 is a trace element in the atmosphere.  CO2 can only retain a certain amount of heat before the excess is radiated out to space.  Contrast this with Venus with its atmosphere consisting of 96% CO2.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

On 1/31/2018 at 6:14 PM, longview said:

In the seventies, they tried to stoke hysteria about a coming ice age and peaking of oil and natural gas.  So they wanted to impose onerous taxation on this scarce resource.   Thereby growing the power and reach of a massive nanny state, which was actually their main objective.

In the eighties, they switched gears and claimed that there will be "runaway" increase in global warming due to burning of fossil fuel causing too much CO2 to be added to the atmosphere.  Al Gore led the charge with his famous movie "An Inconvenient Truth" and stoking even more hysteria among elementary school kids and vapid college students.  This time they want to impose massive regulations on CO2 emitting economic activities and foisting a "Carbon Credit" scheme on the world to force sharing of emission permits (which facilitates global scale welfare funding of 3rd world countries).

Since then, their short term predictions have been proven to be embarrassingly completely OFF the mark.  So they have changed their terminology by calling any extremes in cold or hot weather events to be caused by "Climate Change."  They are still advocating for massive government controls to control society and to degrade the quality of life for the common people.

Who are "they"?  They can be a mixed bag of globalists, extreme environmentalists, those that desire drastic decreases in the world's population, advocates for a totalitarian one world government, those that want everybody to be "equal" AND equally poor, you name it . . .

Thank you brother. Please continue to preach the truth to everyone. Those globalists won't win, we will fight back.

We are definitely in the last days and we are living in a world full of misinformation and fake news by the mainstream media. The US Senate Committee on Science is paying the scientists a lot of money to write complicated research papers that no one else can understand, and all to simply push the warming agenda. Had the Global Warming threat been real it wouldn't be so complicated, the truth is simple.

Edited February 2, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

On 1/26/2018 at 5:52 PM, JLHPROF said:

The scripture also prophesies major climate change.

Okay. Our prophets warn us about dangers all the time. Spiritual promptings have helped us avoid danger, and yet I don't know anyone who has received spiritual confirmation that climate change is a threat to the world.

On 1/26/2018 at 8:07 PM, The Nehor said:

God commands us to care for the Earth and use it wisely with good judgement. Almost everything is dangerous in excess.

and yet most of us think CO2 poses no threat to the world. God hasn't told us that we are using CO2 excessively.

Edited February 2, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[kiwi57]

36 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Okay. Our prophets warn us about dangers all the time. Spiritual promptings have helped us avoid danger, and yet I don't know anyone who has received spiritual confirmation that climate change is a threat to the world.

and yet most of us think CO2 poses no threat to the world. God hasn't told us that we are using CO2 excessively.

Oh dear.

I sometimes ask those who sneer at religious truth claims: What would be the point of revelation if we were able to figure everything out by ourselves?

And now I find myself turning the question around: What is the point of having brains if God just expects us to sit there waiting for Him to spoon-feed us with knowledge about the natural world?

If the Doctrine and Covenants tells us anything, it is that God doesn't seem to expect us to be baby sparrows, just sitting there with our beaks agape waiting for Him to drop something into them. He expects us to "study it out" in our minds, to "seek wisdom by learning" as well as by faith, and to not wait to be "commanded in all things," scolding us for being "slothful" if we don't do things of our own volition.

Just a thought.

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

and yet most of us think CO2 poses no threat to the world. God hasn't told us that we are using CO2 excessively.

God also hasn't told us that we should look both ways before crossing the street.

God also did not tell us to hold our breath when we are underwater.

God trusts us to figure some thing out on our own.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

God also hasn't told us that we should look both ways before crossing the street.

During a dangerous situation the spirit can tell you to be careful. Like Elder Stevenson taught, "the Holy Ghost can help you by warning you in advance of physical and spiritual dangers"  Yet I don't know anyone being warned about climate change.

50 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

And now I find myself turning the question around: What is the point of having brains if God just expects us to sit there waiting for Him to spoon-feed us with knowledge about the natural world?

Knowledge about the natural world is something else because it is not urgent and there is no threat. According to the climate change doctrine our planet will warm more than two degrees by the end of the 21st century. Why would God wait for us to figure out something that is suppose to be a serious threat? 

Edited February 2, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Okay. Our prophets warn us about dangers all the time. Spiritual promptings have helped us avoid danger, and yet I don't know anyone who has received spiritual confirmation that climate change is a threat to the world.

Not the point.  The point is that the climate is supposed to change.  Denying that ignores scripture.

The difference is the average climate change believer blames man exclusively and denies any part God might play.

And the average climate change denier believes God controls all but ignores God's prophecies of climate change and denies any part man might play.

[kiwi57]

6 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

During a dangerous situation the spirit can tell you to be careful. Like Elder Stevenson taught, "the Holy Ghost can help you by warning you in advance of physical and spiritual dangers"  Yet I don't know anyone being warned about climate change.

Knowledge about the natural world is something else because it is not urgent and there is no threat. According to the climate change doctrine our planet will warm more than two degrees by the end of the 21st century. Why would God wait for us to figure out something that is suppose to be a serious threat? 

Because that's what we're supposed to do! We've been given dominion over the whole earth and all things on the face of the earth. Dominion doesn't mean mindlessly hunting to extinction everything that moves, or polluting the air and the water with reckless abandon; it means responsibility.

The notion that we are supposed to ignore physical and temporal reality, or shut our eyes and ears to unpleasant scientific information, is unheard-of in my experience in the Church, and frankly unworthy of a Latter-day Saint. That kind of non-thinking sounds like a caricature of fundamentalist Bible-only Protestantism rather than any form of Mormonism that I know anything about.

Look, I'm not a client scientist - nor do I play one on TV - but I remember seeing an interesting little thought experiment. It goes like this:

What if it turns out that global anthropogenic climate change is a big hoax? Does that mean we will have made a cleaner world for nothing?

[janderich]

On 1/31/2018 at 11:43 AM, longview said:

This graph is NOT helpful.  You need to show correlation between temperatures and CO2 levels.  Scientists have determined from ice cores that increases in CO2 levels came AFTER warm periods.  Which would indicate that there is not much of a greenhouse effect, especially considering CO2 is a trace element in the atmosphere.  CO2 can only retain a certain amount of heat before the excess is radiated out to space.  Contrast this with Venus with its atmosphere consisting of 96% CO2.

Very well, below is the correlation between temperatures and CO2 levels for the last ice age. Note that the global temperature (data painstakingly pulled from tiny shells from the seabed and pollen from lake bottoms) increases generally occur after CO2 concentrations increase. Yes, temperatures can sometimes preceded the CO2 increase but this is as expected since small changes in the earths orbit are what start to reverse ice ages (not CO2).  The details of this we first published in Nature volume 484, pages49–54 (05 April 2012) (see https://www.nature.com/articles/nature10915. So no surprises here, C02 is still the main cause of the global warming we are now experiencing.  

[SamuelTheLamanite]

3 hours ago, janderich said:

Very well, below is the correlation between temperatures and CO2 levels for the last ice age.

The climate change doctrine teaches that an increase of radioactive forcing (not CO2 alone ) is responsible for warming, in other words solar luminosity with CO2 rise. It is very easy to find graphs like this one 

However, how can we know the graphs like the one above aren't made up? There are two reasons why we need to be skeptical of the climate change doctrine. 1. Prophets haven't warned us, no one has claimed spiritual confirmation that is it a threat 2. United States Senate Committee on Science gives scientists millions of dollars to push the climate change agenda.

How can we know the scientists are telling us the truth?  and why do scientists make graphs that are hard to understand? Isn't the truth simple?

 

 

[SamuelTheLamanite]

7 hours ago, kiwi57 said:

The notion that we are supposed to ignore physical and temporal reality, or shut our eyes and ears to unpleasant scientific information, is unheard-of in my experience in the Church, and frankly unworthy of a Latter-day Saint. That kind of non-thinking sounds like a caricature of fundamentalist Bible-only Protestantism rather than any form of Mormonism that I know anything about.

Okay, I admit you are starting to make a lot of sense, but why are most of us skeptical about something that is suppose to be very serious? We Mormons have the gift of the Holy Ghost, we are taught ""the Holy Ghost can help you by warning you in advance of physical and spiritual dangers". So where is our warning? Why aren't we getting it? 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Okay, I admit you are starting to make a lot of sense, but why are most of us skeptical about something that is suppose to be very serious? We Mormons have the gift of the Holy Ghost, we are taught ""the Holy Ghost can help you by warning you in advance of physical and spiritual dangers". So where is our warning? Why aren't we getting it? 

Did you seek the Lord’s counsel on this matter?

[SamuelTheLamanite]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Did you seek the Lord’s counsel on this matter?

No, did you?

After reading this thread again some comments are making a lot of sense. I think you all are converting me to the climate change hypothesis. 

On 1/30/2018 at 3:32 PM, pogi said:

I am not a man-made warming believer.

Pogi, help me. I am so confused now.

Edited February 2, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[The Nehor]

38 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

No, did you?

After reading this thread again some comments are making a lot of sense. I think you all are converting me to the climate change hypothesis. 

I did.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I did.

Did the spirit tell you climate change is a threat?

[janderich]

9 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

The climate change doctrine teaches that an increase of radioactive forcing (not CO2 alone ) is responsible for warming, in other words solar luminosity with CO2 rise. It is very easy to find graphs like this one 

However, how can we know the graphs like the one above aren't made up? There are two reasons why we need to be skeptical of the climate change doctrine. 1. Prophets haven't warned us, no one has claimed spiritual confirmation that is it a threat 2. United States Senate Committee on Science gives scientists millions of dollars to push the climate change agenda.

How can we know the scientists are telling us the truth?  and why do scientists make graphs that are hard to understand? Isn't the truth simple?

Alright, lets forget the science for a minute, in fact lets forget about the issue of climate change. Which of these is more likely: 

1. Thousands upon thousands of well respected scientists the world over have been involved in an elaborate scheme to prove something that is in fact not true.  Despite opposition they have continued over decades to compile more false reports and graphs in order to lie to the public, to politicians, and to other scientists. 

or...

2. Despite evidence upon evidence provided by a host of scientists, a few conspiracy theorists refuse to accept the facts presented and cling to their view of how the world should be.  

I guess you can stick with #2 if you want but I wouldn't base my foundation on such shaky ground. The Lord gives us truths in many ways including through science. 

By the way, the truth of climate change is simple.

1. Carbon dioxide is a gas that traps heat and makes the planet warmer.
2. The use of fossil fuels is adding more of this gas to the Earth's atmosphere.
3. We should expect rising carbon dioxide concentrations to warm our planet. 

 

[Freedom]

12 minutes ago, janderich said:

Alright, lets forget the science for a minute, in fact lets forget about the issue of climate change. Which of these is more likely: 

1. Thousands upon thousands of well respected scientists the world over have been involved in an elaborate scheme to prove something that is in fact not true.  Despite opposition they have continued over decades to compile more false reports and graphs in order to lie to the public, to politicians, and to other scientists. 

or...

2. Despite evidence upon evidence provided by a host of scientists, a few conspiracy theorists refuse to accept the facts presented and cling to their view of how the world should be.  

I guess you can stick with #2 if you want but I wouldn't base my foundation on such shaky ground. The Lord gives us truths in many ways including through science. 

By the way, the truth of climate change is simple.

1. Carbon dioxide is a gas that traps heat and makes the planet warmer.
2. The use of fossil fuels is adding more of this gas to the Earth's atmosphere.
3. We should expect rising carbon dioxide concentrations to warm our planet. 

 

I think you are arguing with logic and science. A big mistake. Never bring logic to a fantasy fight. 

[longview]

20 minutes ago, janderich said:

By the way, the truth of climate change is simple.

1. Carbon dioxide is a gas that traps heat and makes the planet warmer.
2. The use of fossil fuels is adding more of this gas to the Earth's atmosphere.
3. We should expect rising carbon dioxide concentrations to warm our planet. 

1.  a CO2 molecule has only a limited capacity for retaining heat.  The excess is radiated out to space.  CO2 is a trace element in the atmosphere (only between 300 to 400 ppm).  Water vapor is many times more potent greenhouse gas than CO2 per molecule but we do not see runaway effects from this.  This despite H2O gas being much more voluminous than CO2.

2.  the only concern should be pollution and smog in metro areas.  Nature has belched massive volumes of CO2 into the atmosphere over the years.  A few events has put out greater amounts of CO2 than 10 year accumulation of man-caused CO2.

3.  not really.  CO2 is a natural and essential part of ecosystem.  It is continually recycled between plants and animals.  The greatest determinant of climate is Solar output (sometimes measured with sunspot activity) and orbital positions.  When sunspot activity increases, not only is Earth warmed but all the other planets in the system is warming noticeably.  This you cannot blame on AGW.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

1 hour ago, janderich said:

Alright, lets forget the science for a minute, in fact lets forget about the issue of climate change. Which of these is more likely:

I am so confused now! I have to admit all of you are making a lot of sense. I am being tempted to convert to the climate change hypothesis. I hope God answers my prayers. I need to fast this Sunday so I can receive an answer about climate change. 

35 minutes ago, longview said:

1.  a CO2 molecule has only a limited capacity for retaining heatot only is Earth warmed but all the other planets in the system is warming noticeably.  This you cannot blame on AGW.

longview you really have to help me now. I honestly don't know what to think anymore