Elder Oaks on early returning missionaries

[bluebell]

28 minutes ago, rongo said:

Obviously, ability to cope with the challenges of language and culture is a factor, but couldn't many of the Surge statesiders have been sent foreign? I'm just thinking out loud, here, but what would the effect of 20,000 - 30,000 extra missionaries have been in many foreign countries? I'm wondering how that might have affected membership decline abroad. At the very least, it would have improved missionary visibility for a few years, and there is curiosity in seeing missionaries where they've never been seen before. Think of increasing missions of 80 missionaries to 300 for a few years!

Then again, the costs of such a move would have been high --- and the costs of having thousands of early-returnees or kids with profound problems are also much easier to avoid by keeping The Surge stateside. Plus, there is the cost for members in countries where the Church is small when there are an inordinate number of missionaries behaving badly, or having major problems, etc. 

It is an interesting thought exercise to put The Surge in foreign countries rather than the Intermountain West and North Dakota . . .  

It is a little sad to me to hear that many missionaries were simply crammed into stateside missions because there was no other place to put them. The hope is that each mission call is inspired, but it seems that many of these calls were made by expediency. 

The difficulties of getting foreign visas might also have played a part. I know a few of the missionaries in ND were there waiting for their visas to go to South America, for some it took almost a year. 

That would be hard on a person’s morale. 

[Stargazer]

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 3:10 PM, rongo said:

I have a hard time seeing people becoming or being very productive with six month missions. It's too short of a time, with learning curve, getting your sea legs, etc. 

I also wonder how popular strictly service missions would be for normal youth (i.e., letting youth choose strictly humanitarian/service over proselyting). I think there would still be an informal 1st class/2nd class stigma within the Church between various mission "smorgasbord flavors" if people can choose mission specifics, a al carte. 

I think the time is going to come when the Church starts calling full adults with families to go out on proselyting missions.  Perhaps near the time of the SC.

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I think the time is going to come when the Church starts calling full adults with families to go out on proselyting missions.  Perhaps near the time of the SC.

Not exactly the same thing but a senior couple in my ward was called to serve a proselytizing mission in the ward here in Layton UT. 

[Meerkat]

On 1/22/2018 at 1:09 PM, rockpond said:

I love this.

And, I think something needs to change.  At least in certain missions.

I know I'll probably face criticism* for saying this, but the full-time missionaries are becoming a bit of a burden on wards here in Colorado.  Each week the members have to sign up to have the missionaries come teach lessons in our homes.  They need a dinner and two lessons each night.  That means two to three families are being asked to host the missionaries each night.  That gets tough.  So I think it would be great to go all in on humanitarian aid.  And I think they'd find themselves with a ton of teaching appointments by getting involved in the community.

*And YES, I know that it is my responsibility to provide people to teach for the missionaries.  But that becomes a tall order when everything we do is with other church members.  And, in my life right now, church is just too painful a place for me to invite friends.  It takes everything I have to keep me and my family there.  Bringing others isn't really something we can do... tough to bring neighbors when it is so often that someone in my family comes home from church heartbroken and in tears.

We had a similar requirement.  Our Area authority was hard working and hard driving.  In our effort to keep up with multiple teaching appointments for the missionaries, we burned out our less actives and part members with constant visits and drop bys.  That kind of pressure encourages "fellowship and drop" missionary work too.  It has the potential of doing more harm than good when those dropped thought they had gained a friend.

In the past, we members have done these things out of love and dedication.  But there were downsides that we, in our busyness, were oblivious to.  I like Stemelbow's thought here:

On 1/22/2018 at 6:46 AM, stemelbow said:

The humanitarian effort by the Church in terms of missionaries dedicated to it, pails in comparison to the missionary work.  I would suggest if the Church spent all of it's missionary hours and people now, doing humanitarian work, it would produce converts, particularly committed ones, moreso than missionary work does now. 

Our stake has been in this mode for a couple years now.  I can't say we have gained more converts from it yet.  But the missionaries are more cheerful, spiritually minded, and, IMO, more appreciated by the community.  They give invitations during their service and teach some.  But I think the real benefit is strengthening THEM for when they get home.  Stemelbow's comment reminds me of Ammon, Aaron and King Lamoni's father.  Due to Ammon's service, Aaron was able to teach Lamoni's father, who said: "18 O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day."  That service paid off.

[rongo]

13 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I think the time is going to come when the Church starts calling full adults with families to go out on proselyting missions.  Perhaps near the time of the SC.

I've thought that, too. It's no different from being called in the 1850s to settle southern Utah, Arizona, or Nevada. There are many places in the world that could desperately use strong families with Church experience, and uprooting your family to move for years to Estonia would be as challenging and life-changing as moving to the southern deserts in the 1850s. For those who balk at that, why are we shielded from sacrifice, but our ancestors weren't? Are we that soft? 

Logistically, being able to work and support a family in a totally foreign culture is daunting, but then, moving to the deserts without civilization was pretty daunting, too. 

[rongo]

56 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Our stake has been in this mode for a couple years now.  I can't say we have gained more converts from it yet.  But the missionaries are more cheerful, spiritually minded, and, IMO, more appreciated by the community.  They give invitations during their service and teach some.  But I think the real benefit is strengthening THEM for when they get home.  Stemelbow's comment reminds me of Ammon, Aaron and King Lamoni's father.  Due to Ammon's service, Aaron was able to teach Lamoni's father, who said: "18 O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day."  That service paid off.

I don't think it's either/or. I think that service/humanitarian and old-fashioned proselyting are both strong needs, and that one shouldn't be sacrificed at the expense of the other. I disagree with some that service/humanitarian only would lead to a hitherto unseen bounty of convert baptisms and teaching opportunities, but it has merit and rewards and needs in its own right. 

I think it would be wonderful if the Church offered service/humanitarian only options for those would rather do that, but who could also do proselyting, but I don't think that would happen for a couple of reasons. So, we're left for now with ostensible proselyting missionaries sometimes doing service/humanitarian, with some missions leaning heavily in that direction to keep missionaries busy or help with perceived missionary mental and emotional health issues. 

As to the highlighted part above, I'm a little saddened that society, families, and upbringing have shifted to the point where missionaries would ever have to do service/humanitarian only to have benefits accrue to them in their personal development that in the past accrued through family life and local church service growing up. And the shift in the minds of some that trying to spread the gospel and teach our message directly should be gotten away from because most people aren't interested and reject us. There is a certain strengthening and experience that cannot be gotten any other way, and a sizable number of our people are increasingly going through life without that experience at all. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by rongo

[Gray]

On 1/22/2018 at 4:29 PM, rockpond said:

Good posts and thoughts (both this one and the one immediately above it).

The one exception... my ward has about an 80% activity rate.  I believe that's on the high side (at least outside of the mor cor).  And of the 20% of ward members who are not active, I'd guess about half probably should not have their names on the records (I can't even tell you how many times we had to sit in ward council and say:  that family attends a different church or that family will not accept any contact from the church whatsoever).  So our missionaries can't actually visit inactives as a way to keep themselves busy for months on end. 

Wow, that's pretty high! Ours is more like 30% active

[Angelito]

On 1/22/2018 at 1:09 PM, rockpond said:

I love this.

And, I think something needs to change.  At least in certain missions.

I know I'll probably face criticism* for saying this, but the full-time missionaries are becoming a bit of a burden on wards here in Colorado.  Each week the members have to sign up to have the missionaries come teach lessons in our homes.  They need a dinner and two lessons each night.  That means two to three families are being asked to host the missionaries each night.  That gets tough.  So I think it would be great to go all in on humanitarian aid.  And I think they'd find themselves with a ton of teaching appointments by getting involved in the community.

*And YES, I know that it is my responsibility to provide people to teach for the missionaries.  But that becomes a tall order when everything we do is with other church members.  And, in my life right now, church is just too painful a place for me to invite friends.  It takes everything I have to keep me and my family there.  Bringing others isn't really something we can do... tough to bring neighbors when it is so often that someone in my family comes home from church heartbroken and in tears.

Here in California, our missionaries have very little to do during the day.  Proselyting is not allowed, and even if they could knock on doors, no one would be home because most households are dual income.  I've often wondered if the missionaries' mornings and afternoons would be better spent fulfilling other missions of the church, such as temple service, humanitarian efforts, working on farms, and in canneries, storehouses, offices, etc.  In addition to helping the Church and the needy in these ways, they could develop skills to aid them in future occupational or domestic pursuits.  With the Church's focus on education, perhaps they could complete the first year of the BYU Pathways program to improve their study skills.  With nightly meals with members, they don't even get the change to develop cooking skills (although one sister companionship always insisted on washing our dishes).

I have five children who are rapidly approaching missionary age and are inclined to serve, but I dread the thought that one would receive a state-side call.  I cherish memories of my mission to southern Italy, where in addition to many shared and personal spiritual experiences, I was deeply immersed in a linguistic, cultural, architectural, historical, and culinary wonderland.  I'm sure they could learn and do much good on a mission within the states, but I hope they at least come back with some good recipes to share.

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, Angelito said:

Here in California, our missionaries have very little to do during the day.  Proselyting is not allowed, and even if they could knock on doors, no one would be home because most households are dual income.  I've often wondered if the missionaries' mornings and afternoons would be better spent fulfilling other missions of the church, such as temple service, humanitarian efforts, working on farms, and in canneries, storehouses, offices, etc.  In addition to helping the Church and the needy in these ways, they could develop skills to aid them in future occupational or domestic pursuits.  With the Church's focus on education, perhaps they could complete the first year of the BYU Pathways program to improve their study skills.  With nightly meals with members, they don't even get the change to develop cooking skills (although one sister companionship always insisted on washing our dishes).

I have five children who are rapidly approaching missionary age and are inclined to serve, but I dread the thought that one would receive a state-side call.  I cherish memories of my mission to southern Italy, where in addition to many shared and personal spiritual experiences, I was deeply immersed in a linguistic, cultural, architectural, historical, and culinary wonderland.  I'm sure they could learn and do much good on a mission within the states, but I hope they at least come back with some good recipes to share.

Excellent points and good ideas in addition to missionary and service/humanitarian efforts:  temple, storehouses/canneries, developing cooking and home management skills on the side!  I like it.

[Calm]

Missionaries here in Utah work at the storehouses and canneries all the time.  

[bsjkki]

On 1/22/2018 at 2:09 PM, rockpond said:

I love this.

And, I think something needs to change.  At least in certain missions.

I know I'll probably face criticism* for saying this, but the full-time missionaries are becoming a bit of a burden on wards here in Colorado.  Each week the members have to sign up to have the missionaries come teach lessons in our homes.  They need a dinner and two lessons each night.  That means two to three families are being asked to host the missionaries each night.  That gets tough.  So I think it would be great to go all in on humanitarian aid.  And I think they'd find themselves with a ton of teaching appointments by getting involved in the community.

*And YES, I know that it is my responsibility to provide people to teach for the missionaries.  But that becomes a tall order when everything we do is with other church members.  And, in my life right now, church is just too painful a place for me to invite friends.  It takes everything I have to keep me and my family there.  Bringing others isn't really something we can do... tough to bring neighbors when it is so often that someone in my family comes home from church heartbroken and in tears.

There was a time here that the missionaries did become a burden too. They were not allowed to knock doors and would cause issues with their host families. It was hard on the members to keep them busy and honestly, I will get flack for saying this, I hate having the missionaries over for dinner and then suffering  through their hard sell commitment tactics. If I wanted to go through that, I would go buy a new car.

We are in your same boat as far as church goes...it's been super painful. I no longer come home in tears because Primary saves my soul each Sunday but my husband is dying on  the vine. Church is causing him intense anxiety (it's shocking because it is so-not him.) 

[rockpond]

27 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

There was a time here that the missionaries did become a burden too. They were not allowed to knock doors and would cause issues with their host families. It was hard on the members to keep them busy and honestly, I will get flack for saying this, I hate having the missionaries over for dinner and then suffering  through their hard sell commitment tactics. If I wanted to go through that, I would go buy a new car.

We are in your same boat as far as church goes...it's been super painful. I no longer come home in tears because Primary saves my soul each Sunday but my husband is dying on  the vine. Church is causing him intense anxiety (it's shocking because it is so-not him.) 

Yeah, it can be tough.  I have personally landed in a good place right now after the ward/stake boundary changes that resulted in my release from the bishopric.  I really enjoy my new calling with the young men and some of the other opportunities to serve the community.  But the new ward has been very tough on my wife and kids.  It's not going so well for them and they feel ostracized.  That just breaks my heart.

I also dread the impending change that will come this year when our bishop gets released.  I've got some anxiety there but hope for the best!

[readstoomuch]

Stateside there is not much to do during the day.  If you have elders they really can't see the widows.  Our sisters have been good about doing that.  My daughter went out with them to see some of the older sisters and she had a great experience.  I have thought a local program where the missionaries could check on older people on a regular basis, whether they were members or not, and help or make sure they are ok.  If we were to team up with local governments, churches and humanitarian organizations much good could be done.  It isn't slow during the day in every mission or area, but it is in most that I know about.  Someone with some real vision needs to take this problem on.  Someone with vision and the authority to do something.  More pressure from leadership to work harder at doing missionary work is not going to be productive, but everything we could do as a Church to do more in our communities would bear fruit.  That doesn't mean that we shouldn't share the gospel or try to set examples.  It is an argument for stepping outside of the ward family to get to know other people.  I have thought these changes need to happen since I was stateside in the 80`s.  Whenever I could we did try to provide service and do good.  There just seemed to be more freedom to do so.  This seems to be a pivotal time to make a difference.  

[rongo]

15 minutes ago, readstoomuch said:

I have thought a local program where the missionaries could check on older people on a regular basis, whether they were members or not, and help or make sure they are ok. 

A treasured memory from my mission: we visited an elderly invalid often (she had no interest in the Church, but was very grateful for the help) and took out her trash, got money and a shopping list from her, did her grocery shopping, and otherwise did things she couldn't do. She lived on primarily fish and potatoes, so you can imagine what her garbage smelled like (with adult diapers). Without us, I don't know what she would have done, and I don't know what she did before we knocked on her door. To reward us, she clipped David Hasselhoff clippings out of the newspaper, and other things she thought we might find interesting.  We also talked with her, of course. 

[bluebell]

On 1/24/2018 at 6:33 AM, rongo said:

Logistically, being able to work and support a family in a totally foreign culture is daunting, but then, moving to the deserts without civilization was pretty daunting, too. 

The paperwork and red-tape would be significant as well, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be possible.

[Calm]

That is really sweet, rongo.

I think it would be nice if missionaries could have more memories like this because they were encouraged to do so rather than just relying for them to come up with it on their own or continue a service started by a predecessor...though there are definite blessings to being individually inspired to help rather than just doing it out of expectations.

[rongo]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is really sweet, rongo.

I think it would be nice if missionaries could have more memories like this because they were encouraged to do so rather than just relying for them to come up with it on their own or continue a service started by a predecessor...though there are definite blessings to being individually inspired to help rather than just doing it out of expectations.

We always asked if there was anything we could do for them when we were rejected. Sometimes, people would take us up on that, even if just to call our bluff. A good friend of ours (a cowboy who broke horses for a living) was dropping an engine into his truck when the missionaries came. He said he had no time or interest, and when they asked if they could help, he said incredulously, "In those clothes?" They were serious, and ruined their slacks and white shirts. He was impressed, and they taught and baptized him and his wife. He was a very solid convert with a strong testimony --- as strongly LDS as I am. It all started when missionaries were willing to get grease on their clothes when their "bluff was called."

I'm definitely not against service, but I think it should come in the course of tracting --- not be the first option. There are lots of bona fide service opportunities that arise when tracting or talking to people. 

[rongo]

38 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The paperwork and red-tape would be significant as well, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be possible.

It would be really significant, and the stress on families, but I think this would be a huge initiative towards gathering the last fruit out of Europe, Eastern Europe, etc. Obviously, the cost would need to be counted --- and it would have to be God's will, not just our idea.

[readstoomuch]

The exposure between young people and older people would be so good.  I am afraid the next 20 years is going to bring out more and more neglected elderly.  Less children, more broken homes, higher divorce and less social interaction with neighbors all add to the likelihood of being alone as you age.  I wonder what percentage of the Church over 30 is single living on their own?  

[clarkgoble]

On 1/23/2018 at 4:44 PM, Stargazer said:

I think the time is going to come when the Church starts calling full adults with families to go out on proselyting missions.  Perhaps near the time of the SC.

Not really financially feasible unless the Church pays their large costs. As I've said before the low hanging fruit here are single adults. They have no dependents typically and often are in a state where volunteer work is both more interesting and more doable. I'd also add that stake missionaries could be better leveraged as well. Some Mission Presidents have done this. I was called as a fulltime stake missionary when 18 and lived with a full time missionary. It was like a month long split. I was a horrible missionary (one reason I'm very skeptical of the 18 age) but it did effectively double the proselyting power. Further it helped me understand what was coming and probably made me a better missionary when I finally went. (Not saying I was great - I was ridiculously shy at the time and socially awkward although a good teacher I think)

However what I'm hearing is more that outside of a few regions the "low hanging fruit" is gone. It's harder now to gain converts. Although I also suspect some of the innovations of the past 5-6 years are making things worse. We'll see. It's one of those things where it's much easer to complain than come up with a successful change. I'm certainly glad I'm not responsible.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

We always asked if there was anything we could do for them when we were rejected. Sometimes, people would take us up on that, even if just to call our bluff. A good friend of ours (a cowboy who broke horses for a living) was dropping an engine into his truck when the missionaries came. He said he had no time or interest, and when they asked if they could help, he said incredulously, "In those clothes?" They were serious, and ruined their slacks and white shirts. He was impressed, and they taught and baptized him and his wife. He was a very solid convert with a strong testimony --- as strongly LDS as I am. It all started when missionaries were willing to get grease on their clothes when their "bluff was called."

I'm definitely not against service, but I think it should come in the course of tracting --- not be the first option. There are lots of bona fide service opportunities that arise when tracting or talking to people. 

They helped put a roof on down the street when we lived up in Canada.  The guy had beer and wine bottles on his porch.  They would come up afterwards to visit, I was very impressed by how good natured they were.  That was a very good year for missionaries up there (in being nice and devoted, I don't know about baptisms).

[rongo]

21 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Not really financially feasible unless the Church pays their large costs. As I've said before the low hanging fruit here are single adults. They have no dependents typically and often are in a state where volunteer work is both more interesting and more doable. I'd also add that stake missionaries could be better leveraged as well. Some Mission Presidents have done this. I was called as a fulltime stake missionary when 18 and lived with a full time missionary. It was like a month long split. I was a horrible missionary (one reason I'm very skeptical of the 18 age) but it did effectively double the proselyting power. Further it helped me understand what was coming and probably made me a better missionary when I finally went. (Not saying I was great - I was ridiculously shy at the time and socially awkward although a good teacher I think)

However what I'm hearing is more that outside of a few regions the "low hanging fruit" is gone. It's harder now to gain converts. Although I also suspect some of the innovations of the past 5-6 years are making things worse. We'll see. It's one of those things where it's much easer to complain than come up with a successful change. I'm certainly glad I'm not responsible.

All of which is true, but settling the Mormon colonies was no more "financially feasible" than doing a latter-day "colonizing" effort would be (including learning languages, uprooting families, etc.). 

I'm just looking at it from the perspective of the strengthening for these tiny, struggling units in the world, when we have units with 80% + activity here and people have multi-generations of Church culture and know-how. 

If it were God's will, I think it would be a thrilling pioneering experience that could blow some cooling embers back to life in the lands of "no more low-hanging fruit."  

My parents returned in March from Poland, and they said that LDS families who learned Polish and lived there would be such a boon to the Church there --- and help missionary work simply by being there. Not to mention activity rate. They said that Polish Saints are viciously cruel to each other, but that American couples and missionaries can literally do no wrong. Maybe more of them would help them be nicer to each other. 

It's interesting. Stake missions are completely abolished, when they could be the only investigator teachers in strong areas, freeing up missionaries to go to places that sorely need them (granted, those places carry stresses and challenges that would cause depression and anxiety among some). 

[carbon dioxide]

6 hours ago, Angelito said:

Here in California, our missionaries have very little to do during the day.  Proselyting is not allowed,

Why is it not allowed?

[Angelito]

5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Why is it not allowed?

I understand that a combination of anti-soliciting laws (although the Jehovahs Witnesses still knock on my door), gated communities, and general opposition to door knocking resulted in mission rules against traditional tracking activities. I also assume that few folks would be home to answer the door during the day.