Gray Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 (edited) On 12/31/2017 at 8:49 PM, pogi said: Also, Genesis 28:22 "And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that you shall give me I will surely give the tenth unto you." Many scholars believe that Yahweh and El were originally two different Gods, with Yahweh in a subservient status to El. El was the "most high" in an assembly headed by El. Asherah was the wife of El (the "Queen of Heaven"), and had the title "Elat" (Goddess; El-at). Some scholars believe that Yahweh was their son (sounds very Mormon, no?) By the end of the 8th century BCE, fundamentalist monotheists merged Yahweh with El and they became one God. Even though they originally had very different characteristics. Exodus 6:3 states "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty (El Shaddai), but by my name the LORD (YHWH) was I not known to them." The Yahwist author in the Bible was clearly anti-Ashera, even though the Israelites worshipped her up until the Babylonian exile, right after Lehi took off to America. The YHWH of the bible certainly did speak harshly against Asherah, but historically, the Israelites viewed her as El's wife. And as El merged with Yahweh, she became Yahweh's wife. This article explains how the Yahwist "divorced" Asherah from Yahweh: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/2014/10/06/yahwehs-divorce-from-the-goddess-asherah-in-the-garden-of-eden/ Some more interesting reads: https://thequeenofheaven.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/asherah-part-i-the-lost-bride-of- yahweh/yahweh/https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_jehovah01.htm https://www.quora.com/Was-Yahweh-originally-the-son-of-El-or-at-least-subordinate-to-El-El-Elyon-in-the-earliest-forms-of-the-Israelite-religion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah I believe that some scholars believe that Yahweh was not in the original list of the sons of El, but he was a god of war that was actually imported from a neighboring group that they were trading with. Yahweh was "adopted" as one of the sons of El, then took on some attributes of Baal (god of storms) and then finally merged with El. Edited January 2, 2018 by Gray
bluebell Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 On 12/31/2017 at 3:14 PM, Josh Khinder said: I disagree other than the modalism text below where it confounds the persons Luke 10: 23 All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it. JST Mosiah 15 3 The Father, abecause he was bconceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son— 4 And they are aone God, yea, the very bEternal cFather of heaven and of earth. Mosiah 16: 15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very aEternal Father. Amen. Mosiah 7:27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth— Alma 11:38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father? 39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and ball things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last; Helaman 14:12 And also that ye might know of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and that ye might know of the signs of his coming, to the intent that ye might believe on his name. Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. Most mainstream Christian scholars believe that the number of verses in the BOM (which are many) that can be interpreted as supporting modalism negate the book from supporting Trinitarianism.
smac97 Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Hello friends, I've been thinking quite a bit about Stephen Robinson's "Parable of the Bicycle" over the weekend. While I believe most would agree the story does a good job of demonstrating the LDS doctrine of "eternal life", it's really very heartbreaking and cruel and doesn't fit into anything a decent parent would do for a child they love. Observation #1: No loving parent has ever required their child to hand over every dime they've earned in order to get a gift. You didn't do it this past Christmas. You don't do that for Birthdays. YOU DID NOT DO THAT EVER! Yet somehow your "loving" Heavenly Father does? This is where we differ a bit. As I noted previously: Quote the LDS concept of salvation being essentially universal (everyone receives some measure of glory, except for the Sons of Perdition) addresses the "free and unmerited favor" issue. You have to work really, really hard to avoid God's grace. In fact, you must, with full knowledge, affirmatively reject it. Everyone else, even the worst of us, will be rewarded with a kingdom of glory, even the lowest of which is so wonderful it surpasses our ability to comprehend (see also 1 Cor 15:22). "Salvation," then, is a spectrum, not a one-size-fits-all category. From The Encyclopedia of Mormonism: Quote Salvation is the greatest gift of God (D&C 6:13). The root of the word means to be saved, or placed beyond the power of one's enemies (TPJS, pp. 297, 301, 305). It is redemption from the bondage of sin and death, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Some degree of salvation will come to all of God's children except the sons of perdition. Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). Paul said, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars…. So also is the resurrection of the dead" (1 Cor. 15:40-42). Paul also explained that "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22). The Latter-day Saint concept of salvation derives from the teachings of Jesus Christ and the revelations given to ancient and latter-day prophets. It is evident from such teachings that there are different degrees or levels of salvation in the afterlife (see Degrees of Glory). There are various levels of salvation because there are various levels of belief and works among people (D&C 76:99-101). The Prophet Joseph Smith observed, "If God rewarded every one according to the deeds done in the body the term "Heaven' as intended for the Saints' eternal home, must include more kingdoms than one" (TPJS, pp. 10-11). This makes sense to me. "Some degree of salvation will come to all of God's children except sons of perdition." That's the "gift." Thereafter, further rewards are based on obedience to God. Again from the EOM: Quote God has made provision through the Atonement of Jesus Christ for the salvation of the human family. Those things that God does for mankind are called "grace." Those things that people have to do for themselves are called "works." Both are necessary. The Lord requires all persons to do all that they can do for themselves to obtain salvation. For instance, James said, "Faith without works is dead" ( James 2:26), and John wrote that the dead are judged "according to their works" ( Rev. 20:12). Paul emphasized grace, but did not exclude works: "By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" ( Eph. 2:8-10). Also, "as ye have always obeyed,…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" ( Philip. 2:12). Likewise, Nephi1 wrote, "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" ( 2 Ne. 25:23). Latter-day Saint doctrine teaches that works alone can never bring salvation, but good works accompany both faith and grace. Articles pertaining to this topic are Atonement of Jesus Christ; Commandments; Enduring to the End; Faith in Jesus Christ; Grace; Judgment Day, Final; Justification; Obedience; Righteousness; Salvation; Second Estate. It is obedience, I think, that is the objective here. Obedience yields faith. Obedience yields good works. In the end, I am not sure there is a clear distinction between "faith" and "works." Inner-held convictions and beliefs, like faith and love (and abandoning things like greed and hatred and envy) take quite a bit of effort. "Works" are, in the end, just an extension of those inner-held convictions and beliefs. Quote Observation #2: The father promised the little girl that her pennies (works) could one day pay for the bike (eternal life). It's an analogy. A comparison of two otherwise dissimilar things. So I think you may be parsing things out a bit too much. Quote The Bible says that ALL of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. The Bible says that, yes. In Isaiah 64:6. I think some exegesis is in order. I like what the Church has published on this: Quote Isaiah 64:4–11. Is Our Righteousness like “Filthy Rags” unto the Lord? When people do evil in the Lord’s sight, their ways can be compared to “filthy rags.” “We are all as an unclean thing” (Isaiah 64:6). God then hides His face from such individuals (see v. 7), and they must repent and plead to be forgiven (see vv. 8–9). Isaiah said that “all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags,” or as Keil and Delitzsch translated the passage: “All our virtues [are] like a garment soiled with blood” (Commentary, 7:2:470). That is not to say that God despises virtue and views it as filthiness, but rather to say that Israel’s former righteousness has now become evil. Joseph Smith changed Isaiah 64:5–6 to reflect this teaching more clearly: “Thou meetest him that worketh righteousness, and rejoiceth him that remembereth thee in thy ways; in righteousness there is continuance, and such shall be saved. But we have sinned; we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.” (JST, Isaiah 64:5–6.) That sounds about right. The Bible seems full to overflowing with calls to perform good works: shall reward every man according to his works, Matt. 16:27 (1 Cor. 3:8; Alma 9:27–28; D&C 138:59). he that … worketh righteousness, is accepted with him, Acts 10:35. doers of the law shall be justified, Rom. 2:13. receive … according to that he hath done, 2 Cor. 5:10. created in Christ Jesus unto good works, Eph. 2:10. perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works, 2 Tim. 3:17. be careful to maintain good works, Titus 3:8. be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, James 1:22. by works was faith made perfect, James 2:22. faith without works is dead, James 2:26. him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, James 4:17. Father … judgeth according to every man’s work, 1 Pet. 1:17 (Rev. 20:12–13; 1 Ne. 15:32; Mosiah 3:24; Alma 33:22; D&C 19:3; 76:111; 137:9). your good works … glorify God, 1 Pet. 2:12. we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, 1 Jn. 3:22. Blessed are they that do his commandments, Rev. 22:14. None of this means that our "works" are "sufficient" for salvation. Never have been, never will be. But they appear to be necessary nonetheless. Quote That means that if you could combine each and every righteous act ever performed by a human being, Heavenly Father considers all of them to be nothing more than "filthy rags". With respect, I decline your interpretation. Quote Observation #3: The father accepted the girls pennies (works), but Heavenly Father considers works "filthy rags". With respect, I disagree. See the scriptures above. Quote You wouldn't - don't - accept "filthy rags" for any type of payment and neither does Heavenly Father. Again, and with respect, I decline your interpretation. God requires us to obey Him. Such obedience includes "works." Those works are not sufficient, but they are necessary. Quote Observation #4: If you are honest, you will admit you are not doing all that you can do. If doing all that you can really is enough, why are no members actually doing all that they can do? Again, I decline your interpretation (of, presumably, 2 Nephi 25:23). I think this FAIR article puts it well: Quote When Nephi taught that “it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do,”8 he had a specific meaning in mind for the words “all we can do.” Lamoni’s brother, Anti-Nephi-Lehi, described the situation well: And I also thank my great God, that he hath granted unto us that we might repent of these things…which we have committed, and taken away the guilt from our hearts, through the merits of his Son. And now behold my brethren, since it has been all that we could do, (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins…which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain.9 So when Nephi spoke of “all we can do,” he was not referring to individual perfection on our own, which is impossible in mortality, but rather of being reconciled to Christ by exercising our faith unto repentance and by entering into a covenant with God through baptism to keep his commandments and being faithful to that covenant.10 When we fall short, we can repent. The important thing is that we keep trying within the grace that Christ gives us. Mormon also taught this principle, saying, “And may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their works.”11 ... 8 2 Nephi 25:23. 9 Alma 24:11. 10 Alma 7:15-16. 11 Helaman 12:24. I invite you to consider the concepts of "necessity" and "sufficiency." Let me illustrate: Just last week I celebrated my 21st wedding anniversary with my lovely wife. 21 years ago, I proposed to her, and she said yes. These actions - me proposing, her accepting, the both of us agreeing to get married - were necessary components for getting married, but not sufficient. In order to get married, I had to meet conditions imposed by the government. I and my wife had to get a wedding license. And we had to satisfy conditions for getting that license (we had to meet requirements in terms of age, mental capacity, consanguinity, consent, etc.). No matter how much we wanted to get get married, my personal efforts would never be sufficient. Moreover, as Latter-day Saints, we wanted to be married under the laws of the land and sealed in the temple. Again, me proposing and my wife accepting were necessary components for getting sealed, but not sufficient. We had to meet worthiness requirements. And more to the point, no matter how much we wanted to get get sealed, we could not do it ourselves. No matter how hard we worked, no matter was steps we took, the sealing ordinance is not something we could do for ourselves. We had to receive it from God, through His authorized servants. The sealing ordinance, then, can be analogized somewhat to salvation. No matter how much my wife and I prepared ourselves, no matter how much we wanted to be sealed, we could not do it ourselves. It had to come from God. It had to be administered to us by those authorized by God. And even now, our efforts are still not enough. Even though we have been sealed, we must keep covenants with God (which include things like faith, repentance, good works, and so on), so that our marriage covenant can be sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. In other words, it is the Grace of God, expressed through such things as saving ordinances, that are "sufficient." Our works are "necessary," but will never be sufficient for salvation. What is "sufficient" for salvation is laid out in D&C 17:8: Quote And if you do these last commandments of mine, which I have given you, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; for my grace is sufficient for you, and you shall be lifted up at the last day. And also Moroni 10:32: Quote Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. I am persuaded by these passages. I take great comfort in them. Quote The good news: There is a loving, honest and accurate version of this story that actually demonstrates the love of a Heavenly Father “...I’ll tell you what. You agree to keep everything you’ve got and allow me to pay the price for you and the bike is yours today as a gift from your Father.” Hmm. "You agree to keep everything you've got" seems incompatible with Psalm 4:5: Quote Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, and put your trust in the Lord. And Hebrews 13:16: Quote But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. And 1 Peter 2:5: Quote Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. And 3 Nephi 9:20: Quote And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost. The Lord clearly gives us blessings and opportunities, and expects - requires - us to do something with them. Hence we have the Parable of the Talents. Thanks, -Smac Edited January 2, 2018 by smac97 4
pogi Posted January 2, 2018 Author Posted January 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Gray said: I believe that some scholars believe that Yahweh was not in the original list of the sons of El, but he was a god of war that was actually imported from a neighboring group that they were trading with. Yahweh was "adopted" as one of the sons of El, then took on some attributes of Baal (god of storms) and then finally merged with El. That is right, some scholars to believe along those lines. 1
RevTestament Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Hello friends, I've been thinking quite a bit about Stephen Robinson's "Parable of the Bicycle" over the weekend. While I believe most would agree the story does a good job of demonstrating the LDS doctrine of "eternal life", it's really very heartbreaking and cruel and doesn't fit into anything a decent parent would do for a child they love. Observation #1: No loving parent has ever required their child to hand over every dime they've earned in order to get a gift. You didn't do it this past Christmas. You don't do that for Birthdays. YOU DID NOT DO THAT EVER! Yet somehow your "loving" Heavenly Father does? Observation #2: The father promised the little girl that her pennies (works) could one day pay for the bike (eternal life). The Bible says that ALL of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. That means that if you could combine each and every righteous act ever performed by a human being, Heavenly Father considers all of them to be nothing more than "filthy rags". Observation #3: The father accepted the girls pennies (works), but Heavenly Father considers works "filthy rags". You wouldn't - don't - accept "filthy rags" for any type of payment and neither does Heavenly Father. Observation #4: If you are honest, you will admit you are not doing all that you can do. If doing all that you can really is enough, why are no members actually doing all that they can do? The good news: There is a loving, honest and accurate version of this story that actually demonstrates the love of a Heavenly Father “...I’ll tell you what. You agree to keep everything you’ve got and allow me to pay the price for you and the bike is yours today as a gift from your Father.” This is the result of applying narrow proof texting and a cynical view. The works of the law of the OT were as filthy rags. Sacrificing animals was not important to God. What was important was a contrite heart and remembrance of God. Jesus told the pharisees as much - that their traditions were like whited sepulchers full of dead men's bones. Yet, Jesus did not speak badly of good works, but said to let them shine so that others would see them and come. I know our kids did save pennies, and we did let them spend them and make up the difference at times. I believe that a wise parent lets their children invest in their dreams and what they want. Respectfully, you show a lack of understanding of the innermost relationship with God. You want it to be all take and no give. You seem not to understand gospel covenants. God asked all Abraham's progeny to give up the flesh of their foreskins, yet some modern Christians are so self-centered they will not even get baptized. They don't believe in commitment nor true covenants, and so completely miss the deeper things of God. Resepectfully, this is a spoiled child Christianity, and suffers from spoiled-child syndrome raising adults with little real commitment to God. It hides under a form of godliness, but raises none to be godly. Sorry, that's my take. 4
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 35 minutes ago, smac97 said: This is where we differ a bit. As I noted previously: "Salvation," then, is a spectrum, not a one-size-fits-all category. From The Encyclopedia of Mormonism: This makes sense to me. "Some degree of salvation will come to all of God's children except sons of perdition." That's the "gift." Thereafter, further rewards are based on obedience to God. Again from the EOM: It is obedience, I think, that is the objective here. Obedience yields faith. Obedience yields good works. In the end, I am not sure there is a clear distinction between "faith" and "works." Inner-held convictions and beliefs, like faith and love (and abandoning things like greed and hatred and envy) take quite a bit of effort. "Works" are, in the end, just an extension of those inner-held convictions and beliefs. It's an analogy. A comparison of two otherwise dissimilar things. So I think you may be parsing things out a bit too much. The Bible says that, yes. In Isaiah 64:6. I think some exegesis is in order. I like what the Church has published on this: That sounds about right. The Bible seems full to overflowing with calls to perform good works: shall reward every man according to his works, Matt. 16:27 (1 Cor. 3:8; Alma 9:27–28; D&C 138:59). he that … worketh righteousness, is accepted with him, Acts 10:35. doers of the law shall be justified, Rom. 2:13. receive … according to that he hath done, 2 Cor. 5:10. created in Christ Jesus unto good works, Eph. 2:10. perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works, 2 Tim. 3:17. be careful to maintain good works, Titus 3:8. be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, James 1:22. by works was faith made perfect, James 2:22. faith without works is dead, James 2:26. him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, James 4:17. Father … judgeth according to every man’s work, 1 Pet. 1:17 (Rev. 20:12–13; 1 Ne. 15:32; Mosiah 3:24; Alma 33:22; D&C 19:3; 76:111; 137:9). your good works … glorify God, 1 Pet. 2:12. we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, 1 Jn. 3:22. Blessed are they that do his commandments, Rev. 22:14. None of these is sufficient. Never have been, never will be. But they appear to be necessary nonetheless. With respect, I decline your interpretation. With respect, I disagree. See the scriptures above. Again, and with respect, I decline your interpretation. God requires us to obey Him. Such obedience includes "works." Those works are not sufficient, but they are necessary. Again, I decline your interpretation (of, presumably, 2 Nephi 25:23). I think this FAIR article puts it well: I invite you to consider the concepts of "necessity" and "sufficiency." Let me illustrate: Just last week I celebrated my 21st wedding anniversary with my lovely wife. 21 years ago, I proposed to her, and she said yes. These actions - me proposing, her accepting, the both of us agreeing to get married - were necessary components for getting married, but not sufficient. In order to get married, I had to meet conditions imposed by the government. I and my wife had to get a wedding license. And we had to satisfy conditions for getting that license (we had to meet requirements in terms of age, mental capacity, consanguinity, consent, etc.). Moreover, as Latter-day Saints, we wanted to be married under the laws of the land and sealed in the temple. Again, me proposing and my wife accepting were necessary components for getting sealed, but not sufficient. We had to meet worthiness requirements. And even now, our efforts are still not enough. Even though we have been sealed, we must keep covenants with God (which include things like faith, repentance, good works, and so on), so that our marriage covenant can be sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. In other words, it is the Grace of God, expressed through such things as saving ordinances, that are "sufficient." Our works are "necessary," but will never be sufficient for salvation. What is "sufficient" for salvation is laid out in D&C 17:8: And also Moroni 10:32: I am persuaded by these passages. I take great comfort in them. Hmm. "You agree to keep everything you've got" seems incompatible with Psalm 4:5: And Hebrews 13:16: And 1 Peter 2:5: And 3 Nephi 9:20: The Lord clearly gives us blessings and opportunities, and expects - requires - us to do something with them. Hence we have the Parable of the Talents. Thanks, -Smac This is an admirable response to a ridiculous post which was full of distortion and ridiculous reasoning. Seriously, I wish I could learn to be as charitable as you are. My natural man wanted to rip him a .... never mind. 1
Popular Post mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2018 Popular Post Posted January 2, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: “...I’ll tell you what. You agree to keep everything you’ve got and allow me to pay the price for you and the bike is yours today as a gift from your Father.” Disagree. That is neither loving nor good parenting. That is what I would regard as teaching a dependency mentality. "Do nothing and Daddy will take care of it all." That is enabling an attitude of never working for anything. Not good social practice in a family or society in general. Be a lump and it all will be handed to you on a silver platter. And end up homeless in a cardboard box on skid row. I have seen children raised this way perhaps you have not. Edited January 2, 2018 by mfbukowski 5
pogi Posted January 2, 2018 Author Posted January 2, 2018 21 hours ago, RevTestament said: I believe there was a Deuteronomy passage which strongly inferred YHWH was one of the sons of Elohim appointed to inherit the nation of Israel by El Elyon, the Most High. I believe it got changed by post-Jesus Jewish Masoretic scribes to hide that original meaning. Another words at one time it suggested YHWH was only one of the sons of Elohim because the sons of Elohim were each appointed an inheritance of the 72 nations by El Elyon. To hide this interpretation the phrasing got changed to sons of Israel. Evidence of the original is found in a Qumran fragment and in the Septuagint. After the advent of Jesus, scribes wouldn't have wanted any inference that El Elyon had a son named YHWH. The thing is the OT is replete with references to the Father as YHWH. I just do not believe the Jews would have made all those changes while leaving evidence of a JHWH who says JHWH and His Spirit sent Him. The law is just not that corrupt. There is too much evidence predating Yeshua to support our current version of the OT - the Qumran scrolls including the Great Isaiah Scroll, the Septuagint, etc. These show our current OT is reasonably preserved. Outside of some scribal errors and loss of some books, the masoretic text we have is reasonably accurate. While I believe Elohim can include daughters of God, I do not have all the answers about the eternal nature of gender, and I have to leave it at that for now. That is interesting about the Deuteronomy passage. It is just more historical support for Mormon doctrine. Yes, the OT has references of the Father as YHWH. So does the Book of Mormon. "The Father is the Son, and the Son is the Father." I think that the improper understanding of this teaching, coupled with strong monotheistic pressure, led to the merging of El and YHWH as the same person. Modern revelation helps us to understand that this is not a literal oneness of being.
Calm Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Disagree. That is neither loving nor good parenting. That is what I would regard as teaching a dependency mentality. "Do nothing and Daddy will take care of it all." That is enabling an attitude of never working for anything. Not good social practice in a family or society in general. Be a lump and it all will be handed to you on a silver platter. And end up homeless in a cardboard box on skid row. I have seen children raised this way perhaps you have not. Most fathers want their kids to grow up and be as strong and smart as they are. Very few fathers I have seen are happy when their child remains a child in thought and deed, if not in body. 2
FormerLDS Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 21 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Disagree. That is neither loving nor good parenting. That is what I would regard as teaching a dependency mentality. "Do nothing and Daddy will take care of it all." That is enabling an attitude of never working for anything. Not good social practice in a family or society in general. Be a lump and it all will be handed to you on a silver platter. And end up homeless in a cardboard box on skid row. I have seen children raised this way perhaps you have not. Seriously, when you offer someone a gift, do you require the recipient to first give you a percentage of the gift's value before they can have the gift? Do you consider your home to be a "gift" from the bank as long as you maintain a monthly "covenant renewal"? You don't understand the difference between a "gift" and a "reward". A "reward" in the Bible is ALWAYS connected with works. "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Romans 4:4 Conversely, a "gift" is never connected with works or worthy behavior. The gift of God is Eternal life. Romans 6:23
smac97 Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Seriously, when you offer someone a gift, do you require the recipient to first give you a percentage of the gift's value before they can have the gift? Do you consider your home to be a "gift" from the bank as long as you maintain a monthly "covenant renewal"? You don't understand the difference between a "gift" and a "reward". A "reward" in the Bible is ALWAYS connected with works. "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Romans 4:4 Conversely, a "gift" is never connected with works or worthy behavior. The gift of God is Eternal life. Romans 6:23 There is such a think as a "conditional gift." In the law, for example: Quote A conditional gift is one that is subject to or dependent on a condition. A conditional gift can be revoked if the recipient does not fulfill the conditions attached to the gift. A gift is a conditional gift and it is not final until some future event occurs. If the particular event does not occur, the person making the gift has the right to get back the gift. A common example of “conditional gift” is “A shall gift his car to C, if C is alive at A’s death.” Resurrection, salvation from physical death, is an unconditional gift. All who have lived on the earth will get it. The Telestial Kingdom appears, for some, to be an unconditional gift as well. But there are conditional gifts from God, as well. That does not mean the conditions are "a percentage of the gift's value." But they are required nonetheless. Again, the Bible is replete with examples of this concept. The Parable of the Talents seems to be one of the most pertinent. Thanks, -Smac 1
FormerLDS Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 45 minutes ago, RevTestament said: This is the result of applying narrow proof texting and a cynical view. The works of the law of the OT were as filthy rags. Sacrificing animals was not important to God. What was important was a contrite heart and remembrance of God. Jesus told the pharisees as much - that their traditions were like whited sepulchers full of dead men's bones. Yet, Jesus did not speak badly of good works, but said to let them shine so that others would see them and come. I know our kids did save pennies, and we did let them spend them and make up the difference at times. I believe that a wise parent lets their children invest in their dreams and what they want. Respectfully, you show a lack of understanding of the innermost relationship with God. You want it to be all take and no give. You seem not to understand gospel covenants. God asked all Abraham's progeny to give up the flesh of their foreskins, yet some modern Christians are so self-centered they will not even get baptized. They don't believe in commitment nor true covenants, and so completely miss the deeper things of God. Resepectfully, this is a spoiled child Christianity, and suffers from spoiled-child syndrome raising adults with little real commitment to God. It hides under a form of godliness, but raises none to be godly. Sorry, that's my take. Hey I totally see your point of view and testify to you that there was a day when I would have completely agreed. Problem was, I didn't have eternal life. I thought I was religious. I thought I was following the commandments to the best of my ability. I thought I was doing all that I could do, but I did not have eternal life. I thought I was on the right path, doing the right things, saying the right things, faithful to my callings and covenants, BUT all of my religion still didn't give me eternal life. The very best I could get was the "promise" of eternal life (pending continued obedience of course). Those who have the Son have eternal life. Those who do not have the Son DO NOT HAVE eternal life.
Calm Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Seriously, when you offer someone a gift, do you require the recipient to first give you a percentage of the gift's value before they can have the gift? Do you consider your home to be a "gift" from the bank as long as you maintain a monthly "covenant renewal"? You don't understand the difference between a "gift" and a "reward". A "reward" in the Bible is ALWAYS connected with works. "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Romans 4:4 Conversely, a "gift" is never connected with works or worthy behavior. The gift of God is Eternal life. Romans 6:23 I wouldn't give someone the gift of a car until I knew they could both drive and maintain it, most likely demonstrated by their driving and caring for a car they already had. I do think parables that use money as their analogy can quickly run into difficulty if people take them too literally. However, .God started the tradition with his many parables involving money and debt. Edited January 2, 2018 by Calm 1
smac97 Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Hey I totally see your point of view and testify to you that there was a day when I would have completely agreed. Problem was, I didn't have eternal life. I think "eternal life" is within our grasp. We can have assurances of it now. But we can lose it, too. "OSAS" ("Once Saved, Always Saved") seems fundamentally problematic to me. "I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise." (D&C 82:10.) Quote I thought I was religious. I thought I was following the commandments to the best of my ability. I thought I was doing all that I could do, but I did not have eternal life. I generally don't fret over this sort of thing. It seems to be an exercise in navel-gazing ("useless or excessive self-contemplation"). I believe that one's intent matters. A lot. It's dispositive, in fact: Quote 6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing. 7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness. 8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God. 9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such. What you seem to be proposing is endless second-guessing. Well, no thanks. I think my motives are pretty good. I seek to obey God in having faith, and in doing good works. I mess up often. I repent often. But in the end, I believe I am on the right path. So I'll go with 2 Nephi 31:20: "Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a clove of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life." Yes, that sounds quite lovely. Quote I thought I was on the right path, doing the right things, saying the right things, faithful to my callings and covenants, BUT all of my religion still didn't give me eternal life. I don't know what you mean by "my religion." I think God grants eternal life. Quote The very best I could get was the "promise" of eternal life (pending continued obedience of course). That "promise" coming from God, yes? I'm good with that. I think God's promise is trustworthy. Quote Those who have the Son have eternal life. Those who do not have the Son DO NOT HAVE eternal life. "Hav{ing} the Son" requires obedience. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15). OSAS just doesn't work for me. Never has. Thanks, -Smac Edited January 2, 2018 by smac97 3
pogi Posted January 2, 2018 Author Posted January 2, 2018 24 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Seriously, when you offer someone a gift, do you require the recipient to first give you a percentage of the gift's value before they can have the gift? Do you consider your home to be a "gift" from the bank as long as you maintain a monthly "covenant renewal"? You don't understand the difference between a "gift" and a "reward". A "reward" in the Bible is ALWAYS connected with works. "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Romans 4:4 Conversely, a "gift" is never connected with works or worthy behavior. The gift of God is Eternal life. Romans 6:23 First of all, the majority of Protestants don't even believe what you are saying. See my original post. Second, the creed that you espouse which affirms the trinity, also affirms the need for works...oops! Third, if you don't have to give anything in return for the gift of eternal life, then everyone would be saved. Even you believe that eternal life is contingent upon you contributing something. 1
RevTestament Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 20 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Hey I totally see your point of view and testify to you that there was a day when I would have completely agreed. Problem was, I didn't have eternal life. I thought I was religious. I thought I was following the commandments to the best of my ability. I thought I was doing all that I could do, but I did not have eternal life. I thought I was on the right path, doing the right things, saying the right things, faithful to my callings and covenants, BUT all of my religion still didn't give me eternal life. The very best I could get was the "promise" of eternal life (pending continued obedience of course). Those who have the Son have eternal life. Those who do not have the Son DO NOT HAVE eternal life. You do believe in Yeshua, so you probably will gain a measure of eternal life, but I personally believe you are in trouble. I really dislike the whole Pauline OSAS theology debate, so forgive me if I don't list its many errors at the moment. Paul's words are not eternal life. Jesus said His words are life. He admonished us to keep His commandments. While keeping commandments is not the means of salvation, it is the part of the way. You are confusing means and modes with works. Our reward is not based upon means, but all shall receive according to their works through the means of grace. Otherwise none would receive. You don't believe in different degrees of glory, but even Paul said those living the commandments would judge angels. You think you understand, but you do not.
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 26 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Seriously, when you offer someone a gift, do you require the recipient to first give you a percentage of the gift's value before they can have the gift? Do you consider your home to be a "gift" from the bank as long as you maintain a monthly "covenant renewal"? You don't understand the difference between a "gift" and a "reward". A "reward" in the Bible is ALWAYS connected with works. "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Romans 4:4 Conversely, a "gift" is never connected with works or worthy behavior. The gift of God is Eternal life. Romans 6:23 Mistranslation Oh trust me- I know the difference. That difference is what I do for a living- gifting strategies for estate planning and what the law regards as a "gift" enforceable by the IRS. That's about as defining I think as humans can dream up to define the difference to the last... millimeter. I mean you are the one who brought up worldly analogies- if that is how you want to argue it, let's go for it And yes in fact the IRS does recognize such gifts but that is immaterial here anyway- the bike was NOT A GIFT - it was a reward for doing what the Father asked- saving something toward the bike. It was a contract which was fulfilled. It was as much a contract as "Sign up today for "MY CREDIT CARD" and get CASH BACK on all your purchases!!" If you don't sign up- will you get cash back for nothing you have done??? Is that cash back a "gift"?? Being saved by grace is a gift - yes- after all we can do. Yep- atonement resurrection and heaven as you know it are gifts. But for us there is more than "heaven" as you know it. Eternal life is exaltation and is a reward LIKE the reward a child receives when he saves a few pennies and Dad makes up an "infinite" amount compared to what is offered by the covenant. I don't think the KJV translators quite had exaltation in mind- and don't argue the point. We have given that term our own meaning- admittedly. So what? Our doctrine is that that term applies to another level above your level of "salvation" which is itself an ambiguous word. I talked about it to an EV head Pastor at a Calvary Chapel and asked if Billy Graham and Mother Theresa deserved the same reward as a drunken guy on skid row who was a murderer and child molester who took pleasure in killing children, who found the Salvation Army three days before he himself was murdered and he prayed the salvation prayer or whatever you call it. Compared to Martin Luther, Wesley, Billy Graham, the apostle Paul and all the apostles, Mary- both of the biblical ones- and all other exemplary "Christians", John the Beloved, and all the wonderful people who have ever lived. Same reward?? as a murderous child molester possessed by Satan who prayed one phrase before he died a violent death?? The pastor stuttered a little bit and said "Well no- they would receive a greater crown of glory"..... Yeah, my point exactly. Their reward would be greater for their lives of service compared to someone who "sins boldly" as Luther recommends. 1 Corinthians 9: Quote 4 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 2
Anakin7 Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Hey I totally see your point of view and testify to you that there was a day when I would have completely agreed. Problem was, I didn't have eternal life. I thought I was religious. I thought I was following the commandments to the best of my ability. I thought I was doing all that I could do, but I did not have eternal life. I thought I was on the right path, doing the right things, saying the right things, faithful to my callings and covenants, BUT all of my religion still didn't give me eternal life. The very best I could get was the "promise" of eternal life (pending continued obedience of course). Those who have the Son have eternal life. Those who do not have the Son DO NOT HAVE eternal life. Those who have The Son have a continuous ongoing True Grace Empowered Love, Belief, Faith, Covenant of Obedience to God The Father The Monarch of The Universe, In The Name of The Son Jesus Christ The Vice Monarch Of The Universe, by way of The Awesome Testator Sanctifier of The Universe The Holy Ghost in a ancient middle eastern client patron salvation soteriology of which Former LDS has no knowledge of from reading the critical posts. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Robe/Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian Warrior
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Seriously, when you offer someone a gift, do you require the recipient to first give you a percentage of the gift's value before they can have the gift? Do you consider your home to be a "gift" from the bank as long as you maintain a monthly "covenant renewal"? You don't understand the difference between a "gift" and a "reward". A "reward" in the Bible is ALWAYS connected with works. "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Romans 4:4 Conversely, a "gift" is never connected with works or worthy behavior. The gift of God is Eternal life. Romans 6:23 No I am still not done THIS is SAD YOU DARE to quote Romans 6 in this context?? How about the rest?? Emphasis added of course Where is the "FREE GIFT" that we need not work for in these phrases?? Quote 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. YOU said: Quote Conversely, a "gift" is never connected with works or worthy behavior. The gift of God is Eternal life. Romans 6:23 That is EXACTLY backwards from the rest of the chapter. The chapter says quite clearly that the "gift" is indeed connected with WORKS AND worthy behavior!! 2
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Hey I totally see your point of view and testify to you that there was a day when I would have completely agreed. Problem was, I didn't have eternal life. I thought I was religious. I thought I was following the commandments to the best of my ability. I thought I was doing all that I could do, but I did not have eternal life. I thought I was on the right path, doing the right things, saying the right things, faithful to my callings and covenants, BUT all of my religion still didn't give me eternal life. The very best I could get was the "promise" of eternal life (pending continued obedience of course). Those who have the Son have eternal life. Those who do not have the Son DO NOT HAVE eternal life. Whatever that means
Anakin7 Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 For FormerLDS - from The Former Evangelical now LDS Orthodox Evangelical in me - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/destiny.htm The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: You do believe in Yeshua, so you probably will gain a measure of eternal life, but I personally believe you are in trouble. I really dislike the whole Pauline OSAS theology debate, so forgive me if I don't list its many errors at the moment. Paul's words are not eternal life. Jesus said His words are life. He admonished us to keep His commandments. While keeping commandments is not the means of salvation, it is the part of the way. You are confusing means and modes with works. Our reward is not based upon means, but all shall receive according to their works through the means of grace. Otherwise none would receive. You don't believe in different degrees of glory, but even Paul said those living the commandments would judge angels. You think you understand, but you do not. Yes but even granting Paul being infallible (which I do not) Former does not even quote Paul well. Romans 6 was hardly the chapter for him to quote to make his point since the whole chapter clearly points out that his position is wrong, which we all knew instinctively anyway. I am out of this discussion- it is a waste of time dealing with this guy. Nothing credible here at all.
Anakin7 Posted January 2, 2018 Posted January 2, 2018 (edited) More LDS Orthodox Evangelica in me The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian Warrior Edited January 2, 2018 by Anakin7 1
pogi Posted January 2, 2018 Author Posted January 2, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Hey I totally see your point of view and testify to you that there was a day when I would have completely agreed. Problem was, I didn't have eternal life. I thought I was religious. I thought I was following the commandments to the best of my ability. I thought I was doing all that I could do, but I did not have eternal life. I thought I was on the right path, doing the right things, saying the right things, faithful to my callings and covenants, BUT all of my religion still didn't give me eternal life. The very best I could get was the "promise" of eternal life (pending continued obedience of course). Those who have the Son have eternal life. Those who do not have the Son DO NOT HAVE eternal life. You didn't accept Jesus as your savior when you were LDS? You are no different from us in that regard, so why do you pretend to be more accepting of the savior then us? The only difference is that we don't believe that you have to accept an extra-Biblical creed to be saved. Jesus is not a creed. I don't need to accept a creed to accept Jesus. Ironically the Athanasion creed, which mainline protestant churches accept as a trinitarian creed, also affirms the need for both faith and works: Quote Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord. For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits. And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must think thus of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead. At His coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. So much for sola scriptura! So much for sola fide! In accepting these creeds, protestants attest the authority of the church, as the creeds are extra-Biblical. You claim that all one needs to be saved is a belief in Jesus Christ. However, it is not a belief in Jesus Christ that saves, according to these creeds, it is a belief in the creed itself that saves! It clearly states, "whosoever will be saved...it is necessary that he uphold the catholic faith", which it goes on to state is the creed of the trinity. Salvation is through the church, through the creeds, according to the creeds (very circular). Why can't the protestants see that? Why do they uphold the authority of the Catholic church by accepting these creeds? Which, by the way, affirm the need for works - Just ask the Catholics, you know, the ones who wrote them. Edited January 2, 2018 by pogi 2
Anakin7 Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 (edited) Former there are none righteous ? - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/nonerighteous.htm The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS Sentinel, Son of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior Edited January 3, 2018 by Anakin7
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