1829-32 Doctrine of the Nature of God

[pogi]

49 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

I was there for a conference last summer, its an exciting place to be.  Got to tour the new Smithsonian museum of African American History, can't recommend it highly enough.  Thank you for the offer!

Regarding the second part, most of us recognize there's some ambiguity in Scripture.  An easy illustration where we Protestants disagree is infant vs. believer baptism.  I'm in the latter camp, but I recognize the Bible doesn't rule out the former, and indeed there's a reasonable argument to be made in favor of it from Scripture.  I think in such cases (which aren't as common as some might wish to think) we need to follow conscience and we need to be comfortable with others following theirs.  There are things that we should be open-handed about and there are things we should hold tightly with a closed hand (i.e., the doctrines that aren't ambiguous) and be willing to divide over those, if it comes to that (e.g., the Christian doctrinal distinctives I referred to in the previous post).  

How does that sound?

--Erik

I think the spectrum of protestant belief is larger than you make it out to be.  The fact that you allow any argument about scripture, shows that you are a little more liberal then some.  That spectrum goes from ultra-conservative (there is no ambiguity, the Bible speaks for itself), to extremely liberal (the Bible is the "witness of God rather than the word of God, to be interpreted in its historical context through critical analysis.").  Not even all agree on the five solas.  You have sola scriptura vs prima scriptura, and even more liberal approaches as well.  Some believe that God is corporeal, some believe that he is incorporeal, some believe that Jesus is God incarnate, others believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and the Christ was exemplary, but not God. Some view the Bible account of the origin of the universe and life as literal, others view it as symbolic and hold to evolution.  Some believe in original sin, others don't.  Some believe in Satan, others don't believe he exists.  Some believe that all will go to heaven, as God is loving and forgiving, while others believe that salvation requires good works, regardless of faith, while others believe in justification by faith alone, others still believe that the concept of slavation after death is symbolic or nonexistent.  Some think that abortion and gay marriage is wrong, others support a woman's choice and gay rights.  Protestant interpretations of the Bible are as varied as they come. 

 

[mfbukowski]

28 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

To be sure, the 914 analogy has its limits.  The point being the corporate marketing department (then responsible for the jointly-owned companies) can put whatever they want on the label.  They can label a Volkswagen a Porsche if they think the benefit of increased sales will offset the cost of brand dilution in the long run.  Not dissimilarly, we hear quite a few LDS adamantly insist that because "Jesus" is in the name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, their Church must be Christian.  Like the 914 must be a Porsche because, well, because someone in corporate marketing said so and that's what they printed on the back.  I'm not disparaging the 914 in any way, they are a ton of fun to drive and I nearly bought one myself (and not because I was confused about what it really was).  I'm just saying we should appreciate things for what they really are and not get defensive and upset when the label doesn't square with the contents. 

Now on to the important bit of your post.  You own a Karmann Ghia!  Those things are the same sort of fun as the 914, albeit with a much classier look and without the pretense (and also not quite as much power as the Type IV could deliver).  I've owned several VW Beetles, including a '67, a '62 and a '56 with a sliding canvas sunroof that I had restored to factory condition (complete with period-correct Blaupunkt tube radio that charmingly took a few seconds to warm up before you'd get sound).  I won a couple of awards for that last one.  My brother had a 21-window 1967 bus.  But they're all gone now, traded for modern convenience (I'll use having a family as my excuse & see if that convinces anyone).  But you've kept the air-cooled faith!

I knew you were cool.  And I love it when posters share things about themselves that makes them multidimensional.

:0)

--Erik

I love it but It's for sale. 

It's definitely a Ghia-man Kar! 

In one of my previous lives I also made old Mercedes wood dashboard pieces for restorers.   

Edited December 29, 2017 by mfbukowski

[Five Solas]

6 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Again, being a Christian is about being the a disciple of Christ and having a relationship with Him.  It's not about marketing, labels, or a creedal theology test.  And every time you walk up to someone and say "you're not a Christian", you're downright denying any relationship they might have with Christ.  

I'm not denying you have a relationship with your Christ, Jane_Doe.  Nothing I've ever typed justifies that conclusion.  But it should be abundantly clear by now I think Joseph Smith taught a counterfeit Christ, a progressing deity who, among other things, "treads in [the Father's] tracks to inherit what God did before" (King Follett Discourse).  Smith's notion of Jesus has more in common with your Hispanic neighbor down the street than with the Eternal, Uncreated God of Christianity who entered human history as a man (the Incarnation) while not ceasing to be God (the Hypostatic Union), Jesus.  But again, I've never denied the possibility you have a relationship with an entity that calls itself Jesus.  As you know, the Bible tells us there are many spirits (1 John 4:1). 

I'm guessing this might not make you feel any better.  But you yourself would deny the existence of the God I describe.  So you really can't be too upset or offended when I concede you might have a real, authentic relationship--with something else entirely. 

--Erik

_________________________________________

And when I was the line
You were a light
Shining like some planet you call home
Talking aloud, what's it about
The ending or beginning of a word

--Damien Jurado "Exit 353"

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

I'm not denying you have a relationship with your Christ, Jane_Doe.  Nothing I've ever typed justifies that conclusion.

You deny that I am a disciple of Christ (aka a Christian).  You therefore deny my relationship with Christ, and the very core of who I am.

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

But it should be abundantly clear by now I think Joseph Smith taught a counterfeit Christ

And you can disagree on theology all you want.  Christians have been disagreeing about theology for millennium.   I personally have EXTREME disagreements/hatred for Calvinist views, for example.   

But being a "Christian" is not about passing a theology test, it's about having a relationship with Christ.  And yes: I, you, and Calvinists are all Christians.

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

So you really can't be too upset or offended when I concede you might have a real, authentic relationship--with something else entirely. 

Then acknowledge me as a Christian.  

[Five Solas]

On 12/29/2017 at 5:57 PM, Jane_Doe said:

...

Then acknowledge me as a Christian.  

It's not for me to validate you, Jane_Doe.  I've been as plain as I know how in my previous post.  If you're genuinely concerned about your status, well good - you should be.  We all should be!  Maybe God's at work in your heart.  He initiates, we respond.  Respond by making a study of your Bible.  Get a contemporary translation (e.g., NASB, ESV, NIV) so you're not parsing 400+ year-old English and getting distracted by LDS chapter headings which reflect their author's agenda.  Visit a local church that holds the Bible to be God's word and ask to talk to the pastor, and tell him you're troubled about this.  Pray, and skip the LDS prayer protocols (e.g., use of archaic pronouns).  And be encouraged by what you've asked--because if your desire is real, it's not coming from you, it's originating from Him. 

:0)

--Erik

[pogi]

On 12/29/2017 at 5:22 PM, Five Solas said:

I'm not denying you have a relationship with your Christ, Jane_Doe.  Nothing I've ever typed justifies that conclusion.  But it should be abundantly clear by now I think Joseph Smith taught a counterfeit Christ, a progressing deity who, among other things, "treads in [the Father's] tracks to inherit what God did before" (King Follett Discourse).  Smith's notion of Jesus has more in common with your Hispanic neighbor down the street than with the Eternal, Uncreated God of Christianity who entered human history as a man (the Incarnation) while not ceasing to be God (the Hypostatic Union), Jesus.  But again, I've never denied the possibility you have a relationship with an entity that calls itself Jesus.  As you know, the Bible tells us there are many spirits (1 John 4:1). 

I'm guessing this might not make you feel any better.  But you yourself would deny the existence of the God I describe.  So you really can't be too upset or offended when I concede you might have a real, authentic relationship--with something else entirely. 

--Erik

_________________________________________

And when I was the line
You were a light
Shining like some planet you call home
Talking aloud, what's it about
The ending or beginning of a word

--Damien Jurado "Exit 353"

We are Bible believing Christians, like it or not Five Solas.  We do not subscribe to extra-Biblical creedal formulations behind the Trinity.  In that sense, we are more sola scriptura then you are.  We don't believe in a Hypostatic Union because it is not Biblical. 

We don't deny that there is a difference between our explanation of Jesus and yours.  Christianity is already pluralistic and has many branches with evangelical, mainline, orthodox, and others.  Not every group defines Jesus the same.  Just like there is differences between your Jesus and the Catholic Jesus (you know, the Church who wrote the creed and the only ones who have the authority to define it...)  Some within those "Christian" groups believe God has a body, others don't, etc.  Why not acknowledge that "Christianity" is fractured and that no one group lays claim to the term?  All of our definitions fall short of what God is.  God cannot be bottled.  He cannot be defined in words.  He can only be experienced.

How do you know that being you worship and experience is actually different from the being that I worship and experience?  What if we are worshipping the same being, but simply understand him differently?  That is how we approach the rest of Christianity, and we simply would appreciate the same respect.  We agree with you Five Solas, Jesus is defined differently by you, but we also acknowledge that it would be foolish to pretend that it is actually a different Jesus who speaks to you.  How could anyone possibly know that?  if we error, then we error on the side of mutual understanding (even though it feels more one sided) and respect, and allow you to call yourselves whatever you want.  We are not threatened by you calling yourselves "Christian" Five Solas, even though we feel your understanding is misguided by non-biblical Catholic creeds. 

Two people can look at the same image and disagree about what they are looking at (old woman, young woman illusion).  Yet they are both talking about the same image, just like we are talking about the same Jesus.  The Jesus of the Bible.  The Bible paints the picture, and we simply interpret it differently, but we are looking at the same words and talking about the same Jesus of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John. We attribute the same teachings and works to him.  We are both Bible-beliving Christians.   

Here is an excellent article about why Mormons should be considered fellow Christians.  Tell me what you think of his arguments.

https://www.onfaith.co/text/should-mormons-be-considered-fellow-christians

Edited December 31, 2017 by pogi

[Jane_Doe]

 

23 hours ago, Five Solas said:

If you're genuinely concerned about your status, well good - you should be.  We all should be!  Maybe God's at work in your heart.  He initiates, we respond.  Respond by making a study of your Bible.  Get a contemporary translation (e.g., NASB, ESV, NIV) so you're not parsing 400+ year-old English and getting distracted by LDS chapter headings which reflect their author's agenda.  Visit a local church that holds the Bible to be God's word and ask to talk to the pastor, and tell him you're troubled about this.  Pray, and skip the LDS prayer protocols (e.g., use of archaic pronouns).  And be encouraged by what you've asked--because if your desire is real, it's not coming from you, it's originating from Him. 

FiveSolas, I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior at the age of 5, and many many times since then.  According to your own theology I am a born-again saved believer.  I am a Christian.  I have visited many churches Christian and non, because I want to see and love those people-- I've been to 4 in the last week alone.  I last chatted with another denomination's minster yesterday (he's a good friend).  I want to celebrate the relationship you have with Christ, and the Baptist, and the Catholic.  I respect their choice to follow God how they see Him calling them, and celebrate it. I see them.   I love them, as Christ does.   

Me wanting to see you love as Christ does- that's not "God calling out to Jane".  No, that's me wanting to see Christ's love in you.  Right now... I don't see it.  I see hatred and blind denial of my relationship with Christ.  I'm... very sad right now.  I'm sad for you.  I'm trying to find the best words right now... but failing.  I"m sorry.  I'll see if I can find them later.  In the meantime and always, may your walk with Christ grow.

Edited January 1, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[pogi]

23 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

You wrongfully assume I have no relationship with Christ. 

He thinks you have a relationship with an evil spirit who is posing as Jesus 

[mfbukowski]

Just now, pogi said:

He thinks you have a relationship with an evil spirit who is posing as Jesus 

And yet he does not because....  Uh, cough cough....  because he doesn't believe he does.  

Yet he knows you do.  Pretty cool huh?

[Jane_Doe]

21 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And yet he does not because....  Uh, cough cough....  because he doesn't believe he does.  

Yet he knows you do.  Pretty cool huh?

It's... frankly the reason I went to visit my pastor friend is because I had a negative encounter with another Christian someone who likewise tried to blindly deny my relationship with Christ.  I tried chatting with the person, but literately the conversation had to be terminated (neither his nor my choice).   I... he was filled with such hatred (by his own words), I was wondering if there was maybe something more I could have done about things- some way to maybe better show Christ's love.   My pastor friend essentially told me it was best contact got caught off (this man obviously would have just gotten even more viscous) and the best thing I could do was pray for peace and for this attacker.  I already knew that, but it was good to hear it from someone else too.  I just... *Jane sputters for words again*...

[Calm]

You are a good woman, Jane, to care so much.

[Jane_Doe]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are a good woman, Jane, to care so much.

I've frequently been told I care too much...

[pogi]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

And yet he does not because....  Uh, cough cough....  because he doesn't believe he does.  

Yet he knows you do.  Pretty cool huh?

Typical of any good disciple of the creed.  “Sola Credo!”

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I've frequently been told I care too much...

It is a gift, but like many gifts needs to be learned how to be best used.

I know people who care a lot, but have no empathy.  Sometimes they do harm in their efforts to help others.  Then there is the problem of the pain one suffers when one has tons of empathy but recognizes how little we can really do to change someone else's  life, especially if an adult that self sabotaging or even destructive habits.  

Care at a distance isn't that hard, caring while fully involving oneself while seeing life going on just the same, but still doing one's best to keep the opportunity for change available to people....very hard and exhausting at times.

Edited January 1, 2018 by Calm

[Jane_Doe]

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is a gift, but like many gifts needs to be learned how to be best used.

I know people who care a lot, but have no empathy.  Sometimes they do harm in their efforts to help others.  Then there is the problem of the pain one suffers when one has tons of empathy but recognizes how little we can really do to change someone else's  life, especially if an adult that self sabotaging or even destructive habits.  

Care at a distance isn't that hard, caring while fully involving oneself while seeing life going on just the same, but still doing one's best to keep the opportunity for change available to people....very hard and exhausting at times.

Thank you.  I needed that.  

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

It's... frankly the reason I went to visit my pastor friend is because I had a negative encounter with another Christian someone who likewise tried to blindly deny my relationship with Christ.  I tried chatting with the person, but literately the conversation had to be terminated (neither his nor my choice).   I... he was filled with such hatred (by his own words), I was wondering if there was maybe something more I could have done about things- some way to maybe better show Christ's love.   My pastor friend essentially told me it was best contact got caught off (this man obviously would have just gotten even more viscous) and the best thing I could do was pray for peace and for this attacker.  I already knew that, but it was good to hear it from someone else too.  I just... *Jane sputters for words again*...

I hate to generalize but in my experience this is commonplace.  And we get a lot of experience hereabouts.  But I have had two kids serve missions in the "Bible Belt" who had the same experience.  My son was walking along a road between houses in Mississippi in his white shirt and black badge and someone aimed their truck straight at him and he jumped aside and got caught - but thank God only by the rear-view mirror- as the truck kept right on going.  He had a bruised shoulder and kept the mirror as a souvenir but it could have been much worse obviously.

I have sat down with a couple of famous Anti-Mormons and it was essentially the same thing.  

Mormon bashing is quite a sport- I am sorry it is so hard to deal with it, but I guess many of us here are so used to it that it barely raises an eyebrow

And what the bashers do not realize is that because we hear it 24-7 even if we were prone to listen to them to "be saved" there is no way a reasonable person would respond positively considering the way they communicate their message.

Edited January 1, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Jane_Doe]

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I hate to generalize but in my experience this is commonplace.  And we get a lot of experience hereabouts.  But I have had two kids serve missions in the "Bible Belt" who had the same experience.  My son was walking along a road between houses in Mississippi in his white shirt and black badge and someone aimed their truck straight at him and he jumped aside and got caught - but thank God only by the rear-view mirror- as the truck kept right on going.  He had a bruised shoulder and kept the mirror as a souvenir but it could have been much worse obviously.

I have sat down with a couple of famous Anti-Mormons and it was essentially the same thing.  

Mormon bashing is quite a sport- I am sorry it is so hard to deal with it, but I guess many of us here are so used to it that it barely raises an eyebrow

And what the bashers do not realize is that because we hear it 24-7 even if we were prone to listen to them to "be saved" there is no way a reasonable person would respond positively considering the way they communicate their message.

I know it's commonplace- such incidents are VERY familiar to me- heck in from some of my family.  Still.... commonality doesn't make it any less sad.  

[Five Solas]

On 12/31/2017 at 11:48 PM, mfbukowski said:

I hate to generalize but in my experience this is commonplace.  And we get a lot of experience hereabouts.  But I have had two kids serve missions in the "Bible Belt" who had the same experience.  My son was walking along a road between houses in Mississippi in his white shirt and black badge and someone aimed their truck straight at him and he jumped aside and got caught - but thank God only by the rear-view mirror- as the truck kept right on going.  He had a bruised shoulder and kept the mirror as a souvenir but it could have been much worse obviously.

I have sat down with a couple of famous Anti-Mormons and it was essentially the same thing.  

Mormon bashing is quite a sport- I am sorry it is so hard to deal with it, but I guess many of us here are so used to it that it barely raises an eyebrow

And what the bashers do not realize is that because we hear it 24-7 even if we were prone to listen to them to "be saved" there is no way a reasonable person would respond positively considering the way they communicate their message.

What happened to your son, as you described it, was a violent criminal act, mfbukowski.  I have many LDS members in my extended family who I love, a number of whom served LDS missions (including two of my sisters and several cousins)--and I'm grateful none of them had an experience like that.  Had the perpetrator been caught, he should have been prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  There is zero connection between the criminal violence you described and the views I hold and have shared on the thread (or anywhere!).  It is not "essentially the same thing" in any way, shape or form.  The insinuation is appalling and beneath you.     

The last word is yours, if you wish it. 

--Erik

[mfbukowski]

29 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

What happened to your son, as you described it, was a violent criminal act, mfbukowski.  I have many LDS members in my extended family who I love, a number of whom served LDS missions (including two of my sisters and several cousins)--and I'm grateful none of them had an experience like that.  Had the perpetrator been caught, he should have been prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  There is zero connection between the criminal violence you described and the views I hold and have shared on the thread (or anywhere!).  It is not "essentially the same thing" in any way, shape or form.  The insinuation is appalling and beneath you.     

The last word is yours, if you wish it. 

--Erik

Of course it was a criminal act, not sure what you want kind sir. No of course you would not do such a thing, but you do hurt sensitive souls. So do I, I suppose. 

But if you want more stories of persecution of Mormons by Evangelicals and others, they abound.

Seen any funny Broadway plays recently? What if that play was about Blacks or Evangelical beliefs in sola scriptura? What if it was about Jews?

Can you imagine the fall out from Jewish bashing? The funny clothes they wear? Ha ha ha?

With what other group could this even happen today? 

[Gray]

On 12/30/2017 at 9:10 PM, Five Solas said:

 Visit a local church that holds the Bible to be God's word and ask to talk to the pastor, and tell him you're troubled about this.

Fundamentalism erodes spirituality. The Bible is not God's word, sorry!

[Gray]

On 12/29/2017 at 6:22 PM, Five Solas said:

I'm not denying you have a relationship with your Christ, Jane_Doe.  Nothing I've ever typed justifies that conclusion.  But it should be abundantly clear by now I think Joseph Smith taught a counterfeit Christ, a progressing deity who, among other things, "treads in [the Father's] tracks to inherit what God did before" (King Follett Discourse).  Smith's notion of Jesus has more in common with your Hispanic neighbor down the street than with the Eternal, Uncreated God of Christianity who entered human history as a man (the Incarnation) while not ceasing to be God (the Hypostatic Union), Jesus.  But again, I've never denied the possibility you have a relationship with an entity that calls itself Jesus.  As you know, the Bible tells us there are many spirits (1 John 4:1). 

 

You claim that the Bible is the word of God, but this theology isn't in the Bible.

[Raymond Ellis]

I felt the Spirit when reading John 4:24: 'God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.' This means God is a spirit that can make himself appear like a man if he wants to -- like he did to Joseph Smith. I like the scripture Hebrews 4:12, which spreads more light into the nature of God: 'For the word of God is living and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing, to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit and the joints and the marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart' -- God is a very precise spirit. King David as a teen loved God and because of that God made him very precise with the use of his slingshot, killing a bear a lion and Goliath.

I like Abraham 3: 18-19 which tells us God is more than one spirit, but that all his spirits are eternal. The spirits of God range from low intelligence through to higher intelligences and finish with the highest intelligence or Holy Spirit: God is a ball of light of many eternal spirits.

 

[Raymond Ellis]

'God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth' --John 4:24 NKJ version. This means it is wrong to worship God as a man. People in the world worship men to give them power, this kind of worship is a sin, one of four ways of worshipping power -- Isaiah 66:17: 'They that sanctify themselves and purify themselves in the garden with an idol in the midst eating swine's flesh and the abomination [might] and the mouse, shall be consumed together [by fire] says the Lord.' ( Idol, mouse, swine, and abomination: 4 spirits that comprises the false soul. The true soul in the Bible is symbolized as seven spirits: Revelation  5:6 and Zechariah 3 and 4. Zechariah 4:6: 'Not by [the worship of] might [abomination] nor by [the worship of] power, but by [the worship of] my spirit says the Lord.'

All these have souls: atoms, flora, fauna, moons, planets, stars, galaxies -- each of these has a firmament or Holy Spirit, that shines inwardly and outwardly: Daniel 12:3: 'Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament...'

Although God is a soul, he may be an omnipresent spirit as well.

Sigmund Freud called the swine spirit the 'ego'. Both work and sex have an ego spirit. The swine is the pure or direct worship of power, an intense spirit. Note Matthew 5: 'Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven'.

He who worships power, in any of the four ways, makes a covenant with death and agreement with Sheol or hell: Isaiah 28:15.

666 in Revelation 13 means tenaciously (3 times) holding to the worship of power, it is the number of a [common] man, or the number of the majority of men. Revelation 12 & 13: he who worships power worships the image of the beast and he who worships the image of the beast worships the beast and he who worships the beast worships the dragon (Satan).

The image of the beast is four spirits taken from the 10 horns (spirits) of the beast as Daniel 7:8, 24 makes clear.

Worship the Holy Spirit.

[mfbukowski]

On 1/12/2018 at 4:20 PM, Raymond Ellis said:

I felt the Spirit when reading John 4:24: 'God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.' This means God is a spirit that can make himself appear like a man if he wants to -- like he did to Joseph Smith. I like the scripture Hebrews 4:12, which spreads more light into the nature of God: 'For the word of God is living and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing, to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit and the joints and the marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart' -- God is a very precise spirit. King David as a teen loved God and because of that God made him very precise with the use of his slingshot, killing a bear a lion and Goliath.

I like Abraham 3: 18-19 which tells us God is more than one spirit, but that all his spirits are eternal. The spirits of God range from low intelligence through to higher intelligences and finish with the highest intelligence or Holy Spirit: God is a ball of light of many eternal spirits.

 

How did you make these interpretations?  They appear to conflict considerably with LDS doctrine, yet you quote the Book of Abraham.

Just a little confusing.

[theplains]

On 16/12/2017 at 1:54 AM, Benjamin Seeker said:

1831 or 32, JST Luke 10:23. “No man knoweth that the son is the Father, and that the Father is the son.”

From the KJV and ESV:

"All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father
is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him."

"All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who
the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” 

Jim