1829-32 Doctrine of the Nature of God

[mfbukowski]

6 minutes ago, Spammer said:

Amen, brother.

And Amen.

[Five Solas]

4 hours ago, Spammer said:

Lol, well said and I see the 'truth' of it. It brings a whole new perspective to F&T meetings, though. "I'd like to bear my testimony, I 'know' the church is true." Ok. Sounds good. I'm happy for you. Doesn't work for me, though. Makes for an interesting conversation with the missionaries. I wonder how they would respond? I still attend with my wife from time to time, btw, so maybe I'll have an opportunity. Of course, the same applies to 'feeling' God's presence when receiving the Eucharist. If you feel it and believe it, then it's God.

This is new for me. I grew up in the LDS church surrounded by testimonies and spirit-feels. I never really felt anything and even if I had, I always wondered whether it was even possible in principle to really know whether God was the source. I always suspected the answer was no. I was well in my way to Pragmatism, without knowing it. I just didn't have the concepts and language to articulate it. I used to get so angry when people would bear their testimonies and tell me the reason I didn't feel the spirit was because I was doing it wrong (I'm insincere, not really willing to do what it takes, offended by someone, etc). It doesn't make me as angry anymore. They say they know, but they don't know the way they think they know. I'm no different. Knowing that does make me uncomfortable. The promise that I can really know for myself that the church is true (or not) was ingrained in me from my earliest memories. Even now, I still look for a feeling from God at the Liturgy that's of such a character that's I cannot deny it's from God. I guess I have to learn to live with the uncertainty. There's no way to know, no matter what paradigm I adopt.  In Orthodoxy and Catholic RCIA, people talk about their spiritual experiences. I suppose I'll never be one of them - the spirit feelers, either. It's a bit disheartening.

I'm realizing why I'm enjoying your dialogue with mfbukowski & pogi so much, Spammer, it's because I see a bit of myself in you.  I too was active LDS, in my case lasting into my early/mid-30's.  But I really wasn't any good at it, as I've shared before.  Like you, I never felt the things I was supposed to feel, and I hated the pressure I felt to tell bishops what they wanted to hear--so I could get a temple recommend, thereby make myself attractive to LDS women, so I could get married and get on with life (I experienced a lot of relationship rejection over the years due to my lack of "worthiness").  But in my case, God used a nondenominational church to bring me to Christian faith, to belief in the person and work of Christ as revealed in Scripture, and what follows.  

The rear-view mirror is a powerful thing.  Like you, I see what I was before and what, by God's grace, I became after--and I would never trade and go back.

But fundamentally, it's the wrong question--what works for me.  The right question must be what works for God.  I'm sure we'd agree on that.  And God reveals Himself through Scripture.  And the Holy Spirit seals on our minds the teachings therein.  We can't simply will ourselves to real faith & thereby pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, so to speak.  Faith is a gift of the Spirit.  

I realize those last sentences likely sound very Protestant.  So know that I very much enjoy the several Catholic perspectives on the forum.  My uncle converted from Mormonism to Christianity via Catholicism.  I have a cousin who appears to be on a similar track.  

If you were in Seattle, I'd gladly buy you a drink to hear your story.  I've already offered mfbukowski a beverage of his choice if he ever visits.   

:0)

--Erik

[Spammer]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yeah that is what I try to do with correspondence theory guys and ask them how we get outside of appearances to see the truth as it is and compare it to the appearance to see if the appearance is "correct" in its correspondence.

At that point I usually lose them.

There has to be a little crack there for them to even comprehend the idea they are usually so locked in to thinking in other ways.

When you are really locked into one way of seeing, you are locked in.

After I first saw it, I could not believe anything else- it was so crystal clear.   It was like the world changed instantly and it was not necessarily comfortable.

For me it was understanding that a tree "as it is" is a sea of waves and particles immersed in waves and particles of air and whatever- a chaos of vibrations and energy etc and then our eyes/brain make it intelligible

But then I figured out that that explanation was not even correct BECAUSE it was still using the idea of "waves and particles and vibrations" which were totally human words made up by scientists who were quite human expressing it all in language and math- which is more a reflection of the way our brains work in making things intelligible, than it is about the world.   You look out at what seems to be the world and what you see is your own mind/brain/spirit looking back at you in a kind of mirror of what your body is designed to see.

Then that totally blew my mind.   

That was way back in 1968 though so I have had some experience at thinking this way so now I find it hard to even get into the other paradigm.

This is one explanation:  

http://www.philosophypages.com/hy/5f.htm

 

And Pragmatism is basically just Phenomenology/Existentialism as seen by Americans as opposed to Europeans, expressing it in English in a slightly different way.

When I heard about the Mormon idea of God creating the earth from Matter Unorganized- it blew my mind as exactly paralleling the synthesis of ideas which we all have/do.

We are doing essentially on a tiny tiny scale what God does for the world- making us to see the world as HE sees it!!

As his children he allows us to organize worlds as he does by seeing them as He does!

Our body is in the image of His body so in a small way we organize reality as He does!

Thanks for sharing your experiences. You've been coming to terms with having your mind blown since I was 3!  I've known/felt the truth of all of this intuitively,  for a long time, I think, but didn't have the means to sort it all out in a more coherent fashion until first encountering the info and links you've provided on this board, perhaps in 2013 or so? There's still lots to digest, but the nature of the problem I've had for years and haven't articulated very well here  -  why an objective standard of some kind is so dang elusive - is becoming clearer. 

Speaking of Husserl, it's funny you mention him. Ironically, I'm in the middle of a biography of Edith Stein, a German Jewish philosopher who was an atheist, was Husserl's student and protege, and became a Catholic nun and mystic after reading St. Theresa of Avila's autobiography. She died in Auschwitz in 1942.  Edith was enthralled with St. Theresa's description of her mystical experiences and concluded 'This is the truth!' She was baptized, acquired the same experiences, and was transformed. Now Edith is a Catholic saint - St. Theresa Benedicta of the Cross. Pragmatism in action.

https://www.amazon.com/Edith-Stein-Untold-Philosopher-Auschwitz/dp/0898704103

[Edit: reminds me of another Jewish atheist turned Catholic philosopher - Simone Weil. She had a powerful spiritual experience praying the Lord's Prayer before a cross in a Catholic Church. She was converted instantly, but was never baptized. My favorite of her sayings is 'Beauty is the experimental proof that the Incarnation is possible.' From her published notebooks, titled "Gravity and Grace," on Routledge Press.]

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Spammer

[Jane_Doe]

23 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

My uncle converted from Mormonism to Christianity via Catholicism.  

FiveSolas, your language here is completely invalidating every LDS person's relationship with Christ and throwing mud on the core of who they are.  Do you realize that?  

Yes, I realize we have different beliefs on some things, but I would NEVER outright deny your love for Christ as you have just categorically done to me and every other LDS person on this LDS board.  

(Sorry, this is a major sore point for me)

Edited December 28, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Spammer]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That's it you dummy!     (you know I luv ya   )

We call that a testimony!   Go with it!!!  That's God speaking to you in your own language with Him!

It bears good fruit for you!

Lol, who knew? Maybe I should bear my testimony of how God led me to the Catholic Tradition and Orthodoxy the next F&T meeting I attend with my wife. It would be very interesting to gauge the range of reactions to that. Will the bishop shut me down?? 😃😇

[mfbukowski]

44 minutes ago, Spammer said:

Thanks for sharing your experiences. You've been coming to terms with having your mind blown since I was 3!  I've known/felt the truth of all of this intuitively,  for a long time, I think, but didn't have the means to sort it all out in a more coherent fashion until first encountering the info and links you've provided on this board, perhaps in 2013 or so? There's still lots to digest, but the nature of the problem I've had for years and haven't articulated very well here  -  why an objective standard of some kind is so dang elusive - is becoming clearer. 

Speaking of Husserl, it's funny you mention him. Ironically, I'm in the middle of a biography of Edith Stein, a German Jewish philosopher who was an atheist, was Husserl's student and protege, and became a Catholic nun and mystic after reading St. Theresa of Avila's autobiography. She died in Auschwitz in 1942.  Edith was enthralled with St. Theresa's description of her mystical experiences and concluded 'This is the truth!' She was baptized, acquired the same experiences, and was transformed. Now Edith is a Catholic saint - St. Theresa Benedicta of the Cross. Pragmatism in action.

https://www.amazon.com/Edith-Stein-Untold-Philosopher-Auschwitz/dp/0898704103

Oh yeah- I love St. Theresa of Avila !  Thanks to the lead to this wonderful sister. 

Remember I was raised Catholic and still consider myself a mystic.   I watched midnight mass on Christmas eve but the priest kept talking over the Latin so I turned it off.  I love the chant and the Latin from my childhood when all there was was the Tridentine Mass and as an altar boy did all the responses in Latin and had the public portions memorized.

But that dang substance theology just kept getting in the way for me.

Now I have the Endowment and Initiatories memorized. 

I have had some whopper discussions with another temple worker who is a former Catholic Priest about symbolism and similarities-   WOW!

But yes- mysticism!!   Now see the problem?   You want(ed) objective verification of correspondence to the "real world" and where the heck can you find that in her visions??

Where is the objective verification there, dear sir??     And Joseph Smith and the first vision??

That is precisely the problem and the solution- those visions and experiences were all "subjective" right?

God does not speak in an earth shattering audible voice from heaven- but a still small voice in our hearts.

The depth of this I feel is remarkable- I often try to imagine the chaos of vibrations of what we call sound, the waves of what we call light and all those chaotic inputs that God has created us to use in creating our worlds and find it ..... just unspeakable.

There are no words to describe the wonders he has given us if we are open to seeing them this way.   Half a century.

I can't even imagine seeing it any other way and don't want to.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Spammer said:

Lol, who knew? Maybe I should bear my testimony of how God led me to the Catholic Tradition and Orthodoxy the next F&T meeting I attend with my wife. It would be very interesting to gauge the range of reactions to that. Will the bishop shut me down?? 😃😇

Mmmm could be- I wouldn't do it

For those folks it would just be insulting and you don't want to do that- or do it to your wife for that matter.

They are still where we all were once.   Remember it's stages we all work through if we are inclined to think this way

[mfbukowski]

I almost forgot this seems like it would be relevant

For reasons I do not understand it says "By Clark Goble" but I wrote it

http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/08/guest-post-justifying-visions/

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

I'm realizing why I'm enjoying your dialogue with mfbukowski & pogi so much, Spammer, it's because I see a bit of myself in you.  I too was active LDS, in my case lasting into my early/mid-30's.  But I really wasn't any good at it, as I've shared before.  Like you, I never felt the things I was supposed to feel, and I hated the pressure I felt to tell bishops what they wanted to hear--so I could get a temple recommend, thereby make myself attractive to LDS women, so I could get married and get on with life (I experienced a lot of relationship rejection over the years due to my lack of "worthiness").  But in my case, God used a nondenominational church to bring me to Christian faith, to belief in the person and work of Christ as revealed in Scripture, and what follows.  

The rear-view mirror is a powerful thing.  Like you, I see what I was before and what, by God's grace, I became after--and I would never trade and go back.

But fundamentally, it's the wrong question--what works for me.  The right question must be what works for God.  I'm sure we'd agree on that.  And God reveals Himself through Scripture.  And the Holy Spirit seals on our minds the teachings therein.  We can't simply will ourselves to real faith & thereby pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, so to speak.  Faith is a gift of the Spirit.  

I realize those last sentences likely sound very Protestant.  So know that I very much enjoy the several Catholic perspectives on the forum.  My uncle converted from Mormonism to Christianity via Catholicism.  I have a cousin who appears to be on a similar track.  

If you were in Seattle, I'd gladly buy you a drink to hear your story.  I've already offered mfbukowski a beverage of his choice if he ever visits.   

:0)

--Erik

Again thanks for the invite - and this will not be something new to you

For me, the problem with your position is how you know the bible is "true" and I know it is the same way I know it is true, but to me it appears you will not admit it or cannot see it

The spirit has testified of its truth to you and everything you think about God's grace has been given to you by the Holy Spirit.

That sounds perfectly like Moroni 10 and Alma 32 to me and I have no clue why you don't see it that way.

Those are perfectly "Mormon" statements to me.

I have no clue what you think Mormonism is. 

 

[Five Solas]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

FiveSolas, your language here is completely invalidating every LDS person's relationship with Christ and throwing mud on the core of who they are.  Do you realize that?  

Yes, I realize we have different beliefs on some things, but I would NEVER outright deny your love for Christ as you have just categorically done to me and every other LDS person on this LDS board.  

(Sorry, this is a major sore point for me)

At the risk of wandering still further from the thread topic, I really don't understand the sense of outrage, Jane_Done (even though I've heard it a number of times from your compatriots).  It's the LDS Church that denies the existence of the omnipotent God of Christianity, the one who can speak creation into existence, Ex Nihilo.  LDS deny the Trinity Christians profess and worship.  LDS deny the Incarnation.  LDS deny the hypostatic union.  LDS deny the doctrines at the core of Christianity, for Protestant and Catholic alike.  So if anyone ought to feel upset and offended...

It's kinda like the Porsche 914 owner who is scandalized when someone points out her ride was built by Volkswagen and is powered by a Volkswagen Type IV motor.  HOW DARE YOU TELL ME IT'S NOT A REAL PORSCHE!  CAN'T YOU READ THE LETTERING ON THE BACK?  IT SPELLS P*O*R*S*C*H*E!  PORSCHE IS IN ITS NAME!!! 

That's a pretty good analogy, isn't it?  Assuming, of course, you have some appreciation for vintage cars.

;0)

--Erik

_______________________________________

So I turned myself to face me
But I've never caught a glimpse
Of how the others must see the faker
I'm much too fast to take that test

David Bowie, 1971

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

At the risk of wandering still further from the thread topic, I really don't understand the sense of outrage, Jane_Done (even though I've heard it a number of times from your compatriots).  It's the LDS Church that denies the existence of the omnipotent God of Christianity, the one who can speak creation into existence, Ex Nihilo.  LDS deny the Trinity Christians profess and worship.  LDS deny the Incarnation.  LDS deny the hypostatic union.  LDS deny the doctrines at the core of Christianity, for Protestant and Catholic alike.  So if anyone ought to feel upset and offended...

It's kinda like the Porsche 914 owner who is scandalized when someone points out her ride was built by Volkswagen and is powered by a Volkswagen Type IV motor.  HOW DARE YOU TELL ME IT'S NOT A REAL PORSCHE!  CAN'T YOU READ THE LETTERING ON THE BACK?  IT SPELLS P*O*R*S*C*H*E!  PORSCHE IS IN ITS NAME!!! 

That's a pretty good analogy, isn't it?  Assuming, of course, you have some appreciation for vintage cars.

;0)

--Erik

_______________________________________

So I turned myself to face me
But I've never caught a glimpse
Of how the others must see the faker
I'm much too fast to take that test

David Bowie, 1971

A lot of very ambiguous words which do not clearly define differences.

God organizes by his Word, John 1.

LDS affirm a Godhead of 3 persons unified by purpose as one.

Jehovah took upon himself a human body.

Christ's nature like all of us includes the human and divine.

Distinctions without a difference.

So sad.

 

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, Five Solas said:

At the risk of wandering still further from the thread topic, I really don't understand the sense of outrage, Jane_Done (even though I've heard it a number of times from your compatriots). 

Dude, being a Christian is about having a relationship with Christ.  It is about love for Him.  It is not about car analogies,  or passing a theology test.  Hence why I DO acknowledge you as a Christian, despite differences in beliefs.  I see you, I see your relationship with Christ, and I celebrate it.  But you... the reverse seems not true- like some other Christians would rather pretend I and every other LDS person doesn't have a relationship with Christ- deny that the core of me and every other person doesn't exist.  If a person loves me, then SEE me.  SEE my relationship with Christ.  Don't hide and pretend I (a loving Christian) don't exist.  

Again, being Christian is not about passing a theology test, it's about loving Christ.  Don't pretend the love doesn't exist by falsely claiming "oh, you're not a Christian"- that's desecrating the core of person and what it truly is to be a Christian. 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Dude, being a Christian is about having a relationship with Christ.  It is about love for Him.  It is not about car analogies,  or passing a theology test.  Hence why I DO acknowledge you as a Christian, despite differences in beliefs.  I see you, I see your relationship with Christ, and I celebrate it.  But you... the reverse seems not true- like some other Christians would rather pretend I and every other LDS person doesn't have a relationship with Christ- deny that the core of me and every other person doesn't exist.  If a person loves me, then SEE me.  SEE my relationship with Christ.  Don't hide and pretend I (a loving Christian) don't exist.  

Again, being Christian is not about passing a theology test, it's about loving Christ.  Don't pretend the love doesn't exist by falsely claiming "oh, you're not a Christian"- that's desecrating the core of person and what it truly is to be a Christian. 

How Protestants accept Papist theological nonsense and reject Popes, accept consubstantiality and reject transubstantiation just makes no sense.

Three people are one and yet one person has two natures? What's a nature ? How does one count what is immaterial? 

Seems like they're just making it up as they go.

They reject Rome but keep all the worst theology.

People can actually read now and look for "hypostatic" in the bible.

Hint: it's not there.

Fully God and fully man? Yep.

One divine human nature like a caterpillar nature includes becoming a butterfly.

PS Does anyone want to buy a '70 Ghia?

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Five Solas said:

At the risk of wandering still further from the thread topic, I really don't understand the sense of outrage, Jane_Done (even though I've heard it a number of times from your compatriots).  It's the LDS Church that denies the existence of the omnipotent God of Christianity, the one who can speak creation into existence, Ex Nihilo.  LDS deny the Trinity Christians profess and worship.  LDS deny the Incarnation.  LDS deny the hypostatic union.  LDS deny the doctrines at the core of Christianity, for Protestant and Catholic alike.  So if anyone ought to feel upset and offended...

It's kinda like the Porsche 914 owner who is scandalized when someone points out her ride was built by Volkswagen and is powered by a Volkswagen Type IV motor.  HOW DARE YOU TELL ME IT'S NOT A REAL PORSCHE!  CAN'T YOU READ THE LETTERING ON THE BACK?  IT SPELLS P*O*R*S*C*H*E!  PORSCHE IS IN ITS NAME!!! 

That's a pretty good analogy, isn't it?  Assuming, of course, you have some appreciation for vintage cars.

;0)

--Erik

_______________________________________

So I turned myself to face me
But I've never caught a glimpse
Of how the others must see the faker
I'm much too fast to take that test

David Bowie, 1971

The serious question you bring up here is whether or not a 914 Porsche has a hypostatic union of Nature's between Volkswagens and Porsches.

Clearly it has one nature and that is that of a 914 Porsche, which is what it is.

Dogs have dog natures people have people natures and 914 Porsches have 914 Porsche natures.

Now THAT would be a serious discussion.

I have a Ghia-man Kar myself. That is my nature even if it is unnatural.

But I must admit I have trouble counting natures. I think I have about 6.

Edited December 28, 2017 by mfbukowski

[Spammer]

11 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I'm realizing why I'm enjoying your dialogue with mfbukowski & pogi so much, Spammer, it's because I see a bit of myself in you.  I too was active LDS, in my case lasting into my early/mid-30's.  But I really wasn't any good at it, as I've shared before.  Like you, I never felt the things I was supposed to feel, and I hated the pressure I felt to tell bishops what they wanted to hear--so I could get a temple recommend, thereby make myself attractive to LDS women, so I could get married and get on with life (I experienced a lot of relationship rejection over the years due to my lack of "worthiness").  But in my case, God used a nondenominational church to bring me to Christian faith, to belief in the person and work of Christ as revealed in Scripture, and what follows.  

The rear-view mirror is a powerful thing.  Like you, I see what I was before and what, by God's grace, I became after--and I would never trade and go back.

But fundamentally, it's the wrong question--what works for me.  The right question must be what works for God.  I'm sure we'd agree on that.  And God reveals Himself through Scripture.  And the Holy Spirit seals on our minds the teachings therein.  We can't simply will ourselves to real faith & thereby pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, so to speak.  Faith is a gift of the Spirit.  

I realize those last sentences likely sound very Protestant.  So know that I very much enjoy the several Catholic perspectives on the forum.  My uncle converted from Mormonism to Christianity via Catholicism.  I have a cousin who appears to be on a similar track.  

If you were in Seattle, I'd gladly buy you a drink to hear your story.  I've already offered mfbukowski a beverage of his choice if he ever visits.   

:0)

--Erik

I'll extend the same offer to you if you're ever on the East Coast, DC metro to be exact. There are some fine Virginia breweries. 

in the meanwhile, God reveals Himself through scripture to human minds and human minds do the interpreting. For a given passage, how do you determine which of the many interpretations is aligned with God's mind?

[Spammer]

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Mmmm could be- I wouldn't do it

For those folks it would just be insulting and you don't want to do that- or do it to your wife for that matter.

They are still where we all were once.   Remember it's stages we all work through if we are inclined to think this way

Oh, I would never actually do that. It's not nice and my wife would be very upset. I would be in BIG trouble.  ☠️

[Spammer]

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I almost forgot this seems like it would be relevant

For reasons I do not understand it says "By Clark Goble" but I wrote it

http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/08/guest-post-justifying-visions/

 

Is that you in the photo??  I'll give it a read, as well as the Schmanko article you linked earlier. I scanned that one but need to spend some time with it.

[pogi]

12 hours ago, Five Solas said:

At the risk of wandering still further from the thread topic, I really don't understand the sense of outrage, Jane_Done (even though I've heard it a number of times from your compatriots).  It's the LDS Church that denies the existence of the omnipotent God of Christianity, the one who can speak creation into existence, Ex Nihilo.  LDS deny the Trinity Christians profess and worship.  LDS deny the Incarnation.  LDS deny the hypostatic union.  LDS deny the doctrines at the core of Christianity, for Protestant and Catholic alike.  So if anyone ought to feel upset and offended...

It's kinda like the Porsche 914 owner who is scandalized when someone points out her ride was built by Volkswagen and is powered by a Volkswagen Type IV motor.  HOW DARE YOU TELL ME IT'S NOT A REAL PORSCHE!  CAN'T YOU READ THE LETTERING ON THE BACK?  IT SPELLS P*O*R*S*C*H*E!  PORSCHE IS IN ITS NAME!!! 

That's a pretty good analogy, isn't it?  Assuming, of course, you have some appreciation for vintage cars.

;0)

--Erik

_______________________________________

So I turned myself to face me
But I've never caught a glimpse
Of how the others must see the faker
I'm much too fast to take that test

David Bowie, 1971

Nuh-uh, my mommy says that you changed God first...well, second, after the Catholics...or...third, after the Hebrews...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Spammer said:

Is that you in the photo??  I'll give it a read, as well as the Schmanko article you linked earlier. I scanned that one but need to spend some time with it.

Yep that's me.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Spammer said:

I'll extend the same offer to you if you're ever on the East Coast, DC metro to be exact. There are some fine Virginia breweries. 

in the meanwhile, God reveals Himself through scripture to human minds and human minds do the interpreting. For a given passage, how do you determine which of the many interpretations is aligned with God's mind?

Why don't you know that Protestants clearly have one perfectly united faith and one baptism because of sola scriptura?? I mean it's all there in God's word revealed once for all times! 

There can be no disagreement!

 

[Spammer]

38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Why don't you know that Protestants clearly have one perfectly united faith and one baptism because of sola scriptura?? I mean it's all there in God's word revealed once for all times! 

There can be no disagreement!

 

Well, clearly, whoever doesn't agree with MY interpretation or the interpretation of MY favorite exegetes is obviously not led by the Holy Spirit.

[mfbukowski]

5 minutes ago, Spammer said:

Well, clearly, whoever doesn't agree with MY interpretation or the interpretation of MY favorite exegetes is obviously not led by the Holy Spirit.

Clearly. And they are also worthy of scorn.

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by mfbukowski

[Five Solas]

On 12/28/2017 at 5:47 AM, Spammer said:

I'll extend the same offer to you if you're ever on the East Coast, DC metro to be exact. There are some fine Virginia breweries. 

in the meanwhile, God reveals Himself through scripture to human minds and human minds do the interpreting. For a given passage, how do you determine which of the many interpretations is aligned with God's mind?

I was there for a conference last summer, its an exciting place to be.  Got to tour the new Smithsonian museum of African American History, can't recommend it highly enough.  Thank you for the offer!

Regarding the second part, most of us recognize there's some ambiguity in Scripture.  An easy illustration where we Protestants disagree is infant vs. believer baptism.  I'm in the latter camp, but I recognize the Bible doesn't rule out the former, and indeed there's a reasonable argument to be made in favor of it from Scripture.  I think in such cases (which aren't as common as some might wish to think) we need to follow conscience and we need to be comfortable with others following theirs.  There are things that we should be open-handed about and there are things we should hold tightly with a closed hand (i.e., the doctrines that aren't ambiguous) and be willing to divide over those, if it comes to that (e.g., the Christian doctrinal distinctives I referred to in the previous post).  

How does that sound?

--Erik

[Five Solas]

On 12/28/2017 at 12:28 AM, mfbukowski said:

The serious question you bring up here is whether or not a 914 Porsche has a hypostatic union of Nature's between Volkswagens and Porsches.

Clearly it has one nature and that is that of a 914 Porsche, which is what it is.

Dogs have dog natures people have people natures and 914 Porsches have 914 Porsche natures.

Now THAT would be a serious discussion.

I have a Ghia-man Kar myself. That is my nature even if it is unnatural.

But I must admit I have trouble counting natures. I think I have about 6.

To be sure, the 914 analogy has its limits.  The point being the corporate marketing department (then responsible for the jointly-owned companies) can put whatever they want on the label.  They can label a Volkswagen a Porsche if they think the benefit of increased sales will offset the cost of brand dilution in the long run.  Not dissimilarly, we hear quite a few LDS adamantly insist that because "Jesus" is in the name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, their Church must be Christian.  Like the 914 must be a Porsche because, well, because someone in corporate marketing said so and that's what they printed on the back.  I'm not disparaging the 914 in any way, they are a ton of fun to drive and I nearly bought one myself (and not because I was confused about what it really was).  I'm just saying we should appreciate things for what they really are and not get defensive and upset when the label doesn't square with the contents. 

Now on to the important bit of your post.  You own a Karmann Ghia!  Those things are the same sort of fun as the 914, albeit with a much classier look and without the pretense (and also not quite as much power as the Type IV could deliver).  I've owned several VW Beetles, including a '67, a '62 and a '56 with a sliding canvas sunroof that I had restored to factory condition (complete with period-correct Blaupunkt tube radio that charmingly took a few seconds to warm up before you'd get sound).  I won a couple of awards for that last one.  My brother had a 21-window 1967 bus.  But they're all gone now, traded for modern convenience (I'll use having a family as my excuse & see if that convinces anyone).  But you've kept the air-cooled faith!

I knew you were cool.  And I love it when posters share things about themselves that makes them multidimensional.

:0)

--Erik

[Jane_Doe]

3 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

To be sure, the 914 analogy has its limits.  The point being the corporate marketing department (then responsible for the jointly-owned companies) can put whatever they want on the label.  They can label a Volkswagen a Porsche if they think the benefit of increased sales will offset the cost of brand dilution in the long run.  Not dissimilarly, we hear quite a few LDS adamantly insist that because "Jesus" is in the name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, their Church must be Christian.  Like the 914 must be a Porsche because, well, because someone in corporate marketing said so and that's what they printed on the back.  I'm not disparaging the 914 in any way, they are a ton of fun to drive and I nearly bought one myself (and not because I was confused about what it really was).  I'm just saying we should appreciate things for what they really are and not get defensive and upset when the label doesn't square with the contents. 

Now on to the important bit of your post.  You own a Karmann Ghia!  Those things are the same sort of fun as the 914, albeit with a much classier look and without the pretense (and also not quite as much power as the Type IV could deliver).  I've owned several VW Beetles, including a '67, a '62 and a '56 with a sliding canvas sunroof that I had restored to factory condition (complete with period-correct Blaupunkt tube radio that charmingly took a few seconds to warm up before you'd get sound).  I won a couple of awards for that last one.  My brother had a 21-window 1967 bus.  But they're all gone now, traded for modern convenience (I'll use having a family as my excuse & see if that convinces anyone).  But you've kept the air-cooled faith!

I knew you were cool.  And I love it when posters share things about themselves that makes them multidimensional.

:0)

--Erik

Again, being a Christian is about being the a disciple of Christ and having a relationship with Him.  It's not about marketing, labels, or a creedal theology test.  And every time you walk up to someone and say "you're not a Christian", you're downright denying any relationship they might have with Christ.