Atlantic magazine article "The Ignorance of Mocking Mormonism"

[bsjkki]

Interesting article about Mormon's in the Atlantic. A few quotes:

"Writing in The Atlantic this week, Kurt Andersen praises members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Mormons for their “sincere commitment to leading virtuous lives” while simultaneously snickering at their “extreme and strange” beliefs." ...

"Criticism about another’s beliefs is hard to separate from judgments about a person’s worth or intellectual capacities. But, ironically, it is often the very beliefs that Andersen and others criticize that have produced the pro-social Mormon behaviors so often praised. As The Atlantic’s McKay Coppins observed in partial reaction to Andersen’s piece, “I’m not so sure those ‘ridiculous supernatural beliefs’ can be so easily separated from the values/principles/‘righteousness’ showcased in Mormon life."...

"This isn’t to suggest that beliefs or truth claims are off-limits from scrutiny or rigorous debate. Rather, it means that the link between behavior and belief should prompt greater engagement with actual religious teachings, instead of straw man caricatures. It means trying to understand why a belief that seems implausible on its face is believed and lived by otherwise rational individuals. It means seeking to understand what it is about that given belief that tends to produce virtuous behavioral outcomes."...

"As much as South Park or Andersen desire to decouple behavior from belief, the reality is that, in the words of the columnist David Brooks, “Vague, uplifting, nondoctrinal religiosity doesn't actually last. The religions that grow, succor and motivate people to perform heroic acts of service are usually theologically rigorous, arduous in practice, and definite in their convictions about what is True and False.”If Andersen honestly wants more politicians like Flake and Romney, it might help to be a bit less dismissive of religious belief, and a bit more curious in understanding why it seems to work."

I've included the links to the original article and to direct links to articles linked to in the Atlantic article.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/the-ignorance-of-mocking-mormonism/545975/  https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/one-blasphemers-new-admiration-for-mormons/545735/  https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-28/how-utah-keeps-the-american-dream-alive

This is a quote from Kurt Andersen, "But Latter-day Saints were the brave, virtuous avant garde, and as ridiculous as I find their supernatural beliefs, they are in this instance an outpost of true, real-world righteousness in a party in the grip of a terrible Faustian bargain."

 

[Avatar4321]

I saw it. I liked it but I didn't think it was likely to change hearts or minds

[cinepro]

18 hours ago, bsjkki said:

 

"As much as South Park or Andersen desire to decouple behavior from belief, the reality is that, in the words of the columnist David Brooks, “Vague, uplifting, nondoctrinal religiosity doesn't actually last. The religions that grow, succor and motivate people to perform heroic acts of service are usually theologically rigorous, arduous in practice, and definite in their convictions about what is True and False.”If Andersen honestly wants more politicians like Flake and Romney, it might help to be a bit less dismissive of religious belief, and a bit more curious in understanding why it seems to work."

 

 

 

 

Only time will tell if that approach to religion (inexorably linking the good behavior to the unusual beliefs and truth claims) will survive the internet age.

 

As for what South Park's attitude towards Mormonism, I think in the future many LDS will find themselves resorting to this attitude as the last defense against the attacks on Mormon claims (and Joseph Smith in particular), as expressed in this statement made by the LDS boy in the episode (after his friends threaten to reject him for his unusual beliefs):

 

Quote

Look, maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up, but I have a great life. and a great family, and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don't care if Joseph Smith made it all up, because what the church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people in this town might think that's stupid, I still choose to believe in it. All I ever did was try to be your friend, Stan, but you're so high and mighty you couldn't look past my religion and just be my friend back. You've got a lot of growing up to do, buddy. [turns around and walks off. All four boys just look at him in wonder.]

 

[smac97]

Hal Boyd, the editor of The Deseret News, has published a response to Mr. Andersen's article: 

Deseret News editor Hal Boyd's response to Mormon mocking published by The Atlantic

The Ignorance of Mocking Mormonism

He makes some good points.  My favorite (emphasis added):

Quote

Not unlike The Book of Mormon musical, Andersen’s musings aim to initiate rather than alienate, to praise rather than punish. But what Andersen fails to appreciate is that it’s precisely the pro-social beliefs of Mormons—the eternal nature of families, obligations to the poor and oppressed, accountability to God, the importance of clean living, and the value of self-reliance and personal agency—that result in specific shared behaviors and actions by the likes of Flake and Romney.

The British public intellectual Alain de Botton’s book Religion for Atheists: A Non-Believer’s Guide to the Uses of Religion similarly seeks to appreciate the good of religion without accepting what he believes are unpalatable theological claims. But as Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks eloquently observed in a conversation with de Botton: “Matters of the spirit live on the basis of obligation or ... [divine] command. Unless you hear a command [or] an obligation that comes from beyond you … you will not be able to generate sustainable [behavior].” For the religious, behavior is an extension of belief, of divine command—it’s a system of obligations rooted in metaphysical truth claims about the world and universe.

As much as South Park or Andersen desire to decouple behavior from belief, the reality is that, in the words of the columnist David Brooks, “Vague, uplifting, nondoctrinal religiosity doesn't actually last. The religions that grow, succor and motivate people to perform heroic acts of service are usually theologically rigorous, arduous in practice, and definite in their convictions about what is True and False.”

If Andersen honestly wants more politicians like Flake and Romney, it might help to be a bit less dismissive of religious belief, and a bit more curious in understanding why it seems to work.

The best parts of me are Mormon.  The choices I have made which have brought me the most happiness, security, optimism, reassurance, comfort and hope have been those which comport with the teachings of the Church.  The choices I most regret have pretty much all been contrary to the teachings of the Church.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 17, 2017 by smac97

[clarkgoble]

The best part of South Park was when they announced who's view of heaven was right.

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

The best parts of me are Mormon.  The choices I have made which have brought me the most happiness, security, optimism, reassurance, comfort and hope have been those which comport with the teachings of the Church.  The choices I most regret have pretty much all been contrary to the teachings of the Church.

Same here. I've had friends who've tried to tell me I'd somehow be the same person without my beliefs. They're wrong. I am who I am because of what I believe.

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Same here. I've had friends who've tried to tell me I'd somehow be the same person without my beliefs. They're wrong. I am who I am because of what I believe.

I agree. I'd be a miserable eccentric angry single man.

Now im a happy eccentric laid back married man

[mfbukowski]

On 11/16/2017 at 3:08 PM, bsjkki said:

"As much as South Park or Andersen desire to decouple behavior from belief, the reality is that, in the words of the columnist David Brooks, “Vague, uplifting, nondoctrinal religiosity doesn't actually last. The religions that grow, succor and motivate people to perform heroic acts of service are usually theologically rigorous, arduous in practice, and definite in their convictions about what is True and False.”If Andersen honestly wants more politicians like Flake and Romney, it might help to be a bit less dismissive of religious belief, and a bit more curious in understanding why it seems to work."

I like that they are judging us by how our beliefs "work"

On the other hand, our doctrine is vague and we are not that definite about what is "true and false".  The debates on this board show that pretty clearly.    But I think that's a good thing when it talks about pretending to know the mind of God perfectly while still being a mortal.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 11/17/2017 at 10:42 AM, smac97 said:

Hal Boyd, the editor of The Deseret News, has published a response to Mr. Andersen's article: 

Deseret News editor Hal Boyd's response to Mormon mocking published by The Atlantic

The Ignorance of Mocking Mormonism

He makes some good points.  My favorite (emphasis added):

The best parts of me are Mormon.  The choices I have made which have brought me the most happiness, security, optimism, reassurance, comfort and hope have been those which comport with the teachings of the Church.  The choices I most regret have pretty much all been contrary to the teachings of the Church.

Thanks,

-Smac

That was a fine article. I saw Hal Boyd in the newsroom and told him so as I was leaving work on Friday. 

But Hal is not the editor of the Deseret News. He is the editorial page editor (I think; positions change so frequently there these days that it’s hard for me to keep track). 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Scott Lloyd