Institute = the BYU

[Benk]

Hi friends,

Longtime lurker, finally taking the plunge in search of information.

I read an article a while back which included therein the surprising piece of information that graduation from Institute had an equivalent effect on YSA retention activity rates as did graduation from the BYU. I can't know find said article. Has anyone else come across it and do they know where to find it?

Since the topic is open, an additional question -- why do you think that might be so? It's not something I would have predicted.

Thanks in advance!

[bsjkki]

9 minutes ago, Benk said:

Hi friends,

Longtime lurker, finally taking the plunge in search of information.

I read an article a while back which included therein the surprising piece of information that graduation from Institute had an equivalent effect on YSA retention activity rates as did graduation from the BYU. I can't know find said article. Has anyone else come across it and do they know where to find it?

Since the topic is open, an additional question -- why do you think that might be so? It's not something I would have predicted.

Thanks in advance!

I think it is because most YSA that attend institute faithfully are already very committed. It is logical they would remain active.

[rpn]

Wasn't it in the BYU magazine several months ago?

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, Benk said:

I read an article a while back which included therein the surprising piece of information that graduation from Institute had an equivalent effect on YSA retention activity rates as did graduation from the BYU.

I'm surprised it's only equivalent.

I did my master's study at a very large public university in the American Midwest. At the  beginning of my second year there, we got an influx of about 5 or 6 BYU graduates who had come to begin their postgraduate studies, and that year I was also sharing a flat with two others who'd started their PHDs at the uni before I'd arrived. One Sunday less than a month later, a recent-ish convert whom I picked up for church each week asked me, 'So why is everyone who attends BYU so cynical about the Church?'

'You've already realised that?' I asked.

'Yep. How can you miss it?' she asked. 'It's like they're all trying to prove something'.

To me, both of my flatmates seemed starved for worldly approbation. One of them  left the Church before the year was out, and the other one confessed that he was just going to fake it until he was safely married in the temple (he was already engaged) in order to please both sets of parents. Living with them was to experience a constant stream of mockery and negativity. So often one of them would  begin a conversation by saying, 'You know how...?' and then go off on some Mormon-bashing rant. They seemed genuinely surprised when I not only didn't join in but often told them that no, I didn't know what they were talking about, that it didn't sound at all familiar to me, and their experiences actually suggested to me that we belonged to completely different faiths.

No doubt BYU works for some students. It hasn't been my privilege to really meet any yet. I've often said that the shortest route to apostasy lies through a BYU degree ... though maybe it's actually a BYU degree plus a postgraduate qualification somewhere else? We have a lovely American sister in our ward whose husband has completely gone off the rails this year. He's stopped attending Church and stopped believing, from what I've heard. (He's never said anything to me personally.) BYU grad doing a PhD at the uni here.

My occasional forays into the ex-Mormon Reddit often leave me feeling like I've just crashed a BYU class reunion.

So yeah, I'm genuinely as surprised as you are, though apparently for different reasons.

[clarkgoble]

7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

No doubt BYU works for some students. It hasn't been my privilege to really meet any yet. I've often said that the shortest route to apostasy lies through a BYU degree ... though maybe it's actually a BYU degree plus a postgraduate qualification somewhere else? We have a lovely American sister in our ward whose husband has completely gone off the rails this year. He's stopped attending Church and stopped believing, from what I've heard. (He's never said anything to me personally.) BYU grad doing a PhD at the uni here.

Most of my friends from BYU are faithful. A few even teach at BYU now. There's a few from the old Student Review days who left the Church but surprisingly not that many.

Typically you could pick out the people you knew had a good chance of leaving the Church. I'm not saying others didn't have struggles and occasional bouts with inactivity or sin. But by and large I think BYU was a positive thing. The people who were cynical at BYU likely would have left even sooner had they gone to a secular college. It seems wrong to blame BYU for this.

That said, I'm not sure the CES religion instruction was worthwhile. When I was there it seemed liked warmed over seminary with the associated "make work" of fill in the blank or multiple choice tests with a focus on regurgitation rather than comprehension. The best classes were always taught in the honor's department. Although now that's gone who knows how things are.

Edited November 15, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm surprised it's only equivalent.

I did my master's study at a very large public university in the American Midwest. At the  beginning of my second year there, we got an influx of about 5 or 6 BYU graduates who had come to begin their postgraduate studies, and that year I was also sharing a flat with two others who'd started their PHDs at the uni before I'd arrived. One Sunday less than a month later, a recent-ish convert whom I picked up for church each week asked me, 'So why is everyone who attends BYU so cynical about the Church?'

'You've already realised that?' I asked.

'Yep. How can you miss it?' she asked. 'It's like they're all trying to prove something'.

To me, both of my flatmates seemed starved for worldly approbation. One of them  left the Church before the year was out, and the other one confessed that he was just going to fake it until he was safely married in the temple (he was already engaged) in order to please both sets of parents. Living with them was to experience a constant stream of mockery and negativity. So often one of them would  begin a conversation by saying, 'You know how...?' and then go off on some Mormon-bashing rant. They seemed genuinely surprised when I not only didn't join in but often told them that no, I didn't know what they were talking about, that it didn't sound at all familiar to me, and their experiences actually suggested to me that we belonged to completely different faiths.

No doubt BYU works for some students. It hasn't been my privilege to really meet any yet. I've often said that the shortest route to apostasy lies through a BYU degree ... though maybe it's actually a BYU degree plus a postgraduate qualification somewhere else? We have a lovely American sister in our ward whose husband has completely gone off the rails this year. He's stopped attending Church and stopped believing, from what I've heard. (He's never said anything to me personally.) BYU grad doing a PhD at the uni here.

My occasional forays into the ex-Mormon Reddit often leave me feeling like I've just crashed a BYU class reunion.

So yeah, I'm genuinely as surprised as you are, though apparently for different reasons.

Sorry your experience with BYU graduates has been so disappointing, but as one who did not stray off into apostasy or Mormon bashing, allow me to offer myself as a counter-example. 

[rchorse]

BYU is a huge university, so of course you will get all sorts of results from the people who graduated from BYU. My experience from 6 years at BYU was that the majority are very faithful and committed, but a sizable minority (I would guess 20%) are just going through the motions with the church so they can stay at BYU. Why they want to stay there when they're not committed to the church is a complete mystery to me.

I have a hard time believing the church would put the resources it does into BYU if it were a net negative in terms of the faithfulness of the students, faculty, and alumni.

[Benk]

bsjkki, I think that's a bit too reductionist.

For a bit of context, I'm in Scotland, our Stake is running at over 90% YSA inactivity. I think, like rchorse wrote, that considering the resources the church pumps into BYU, it must be -- and continue to be -- a considerable net gain. When one considers everything that surrounds the BYU experience, compared to the experience here, where over 90% of your peers at church don't go, and your university experience is entirely secular, that graduating institute produces the same net gain is astounding, particularly because the institute experience is not great, especially in terms of the teaching and learning experience. 

It may be that the ones who go are already more committed, but reading a statement like that, the question becomes, if graduating institute has such an effect, how do we get more folk there?

If anyone runs across the link, please stick it here.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

12 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm surprised it's only equivalent.

I did my master's study at a very large public university in the American Midwest. At the  beginning of my second year there, we got an influx of about 5 or 6 BYU graduates who had come to begin their postgraduate studies, and that year I was also sharing a flat with two others who'd started their PHDs at the uni before I'd arrived. One Sunday less than a month later, a recent-ish convert whom I picked up for church each week asked me, 'So why is everyone who attends BYU so cynical about the Church?'

'You've already realised that?' I asked.

'Yep. How can you miss it?' she asked. 'It's like they're all trying to prove something'.

To me, both of my flatmates seemed starved for worldly approbation. One of them  left the Church before the year was out, and the other one confessed that he was just going to fake it until he was safely married in the temple (he was already engaged) in order to please both sets of parents. Living with them was to experience a constant stream of mockery and negativity. So often one of them would  begin a conversation by saying, 'You know how...?' and then go off on some Mormon-bashing rant. They seemed genuinely surprised when I not only didn't join in but often told them that no, I didn't know what they were talking about, that it didn't sound at all familiar to me, and their experiences actually suggested to me that we belonged to completely different faiths.

No doubt BYU works for some students. It hasn't been my privilege to really meet any yet. I've often said that the shortest route to apostasy lies through a BYU degree ... though maybe it's actually a BYU degree plus a postgraduate qualification somewhere else? We have a lovely American sister in our ward whose husband has completely gone off the rails this year. He's stopped attending Church and stopped believing, from what I've heard. (He's never said anything to me personally.) BYU grad doing a PhD at the uni here.

My occasional forays into the ex-Mormon Reddit often leave me feeling like I've just crashed a BYU class reunion.

So yeah, I'm genuinely as surprised as you are, though apparently for different reasons.

Do you think it might be the constant church influence that pushes some away?  The church seems to over-program at times. I understand that the church really wants to guide the youth so much that it may over-do it and create backlash.  In my case, I was really burnt out after my mission and that led me to not immediately go on a study abroad with my friends to Jerusalem.  I couldn't deal with having church every day again for another 6 months, so I thought, after just having completed 2 years of it.  Maybe this has something to do with the Utah/Mission Field dichotomy my mother always told us about while growing up?  She went to BYU but was from California and that is where we lived until I was 5.  She didn't want to go to SLC to live because she thought SLC mormons maybe took it for granted being surrounded by like minded people.  However, maybe the constant influence of a dominant culture is what pushes some away?

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Do you think it might be the constant church influence that pushes some away?  The church seems to over-program at times. I understand that the church really wants to guide the youth so much that it may over-do it and create backlash.  In my case, I was really burnt out after my mission and that led me to not immediately go on a study abroad with my friends to Jerusalem.  I couldn't deal with having church every day again for another 6 months, so I thought, after just having completed 2 years of it.  Maybe this has something to do with the Utah/Mission Field dichotomy my mother always told us about while growing up?  She went to BYU but was from California and that is where we lived until I was 5.  She didn't want to go to SLC to live because she thought SLC mormons maybe took it for granted being surrounded by like minded people.  However, maybe the constant influence of a dominant culture is what pushes some away?

The over-programming you mention is real, and it makes a lot of people feel claustrophobic. In an effort to keep people engaged by keeping them in church activities almost 24/7, I think many people are pushed away.

 

[clarkgoble]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

The over-programming you mention is real, and it makes a lot of people feel claustrophobic. In an effort to keep people engaged by keeping them in church activities almost 24/7, I think many people are pushed away.

It seems that this has gotten better over time. When I was young you went to church Sunday morning for Priesthood (VERY early) then Sunday School -- Junior Sunday School which included sacrament. Then you came back at 6:00 for an hour and a half sacrament meeting. Primary was on Tuesday night for an hour and a half. Then there was Relief Society meeting. Add in the various activities and you'd contributed a pretty huge amount. The merging of most of those meetings to the three hour block was huge. Since then they've been trying to shorten or eliminate all the other meetings people had for callings. 

For singles I think the situation is different since you tend to have a lot more free time when single and are often looking for socialization. In a certain way the complain for singles - especially the over 25 crowd - is that there's not enough socialization. (Part of that is of course the existing services often aren't terribly satisfying for what one wants)

For married people ones time is often so short at the best of times that just going on a date with your spouse can be hard. Eliminating meetings helps a lot. But it's hard to say the problem is Church so much as family. (Not that family is trying - but with all the home work, PTA meetings, athletics and dance classes, school projects, then the occasional fun family home evening and suddenly there's little time left)

[RevTestament]

On 11/14/2017 at 4:26 PM, Benk said:

Hi friends,

Longtime lurker, finally taking the plunge in search of information.

I read an article a while back which included therein the surprising piece of information that graduation from Institute had an equivalent effect on YSA retention activity rates as did graduation from the BYU. I can't know find said article. Has anyone else come across it and do they know where to find it?

Since the topic is open, an additional question -- why do you think that might be so? It's not something I would have predicted.

Thanks in advance!

Question 1: no idea.

Question 2: I might even think the Institute grads would have a better track record in the Church. Being a grad of BYU doesn't automatically lend any greater education in the scriptures or the Church. Institute is specifically a religious, scripture class. It studies why the Church believes and does what it does according to scripture. When you understand that, how can you leave? I found the NT very compellingly in favor of the Church. BYU may not lend this understanding at all. It depends what classes you take, your experience, etc.

[Gray]

7 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

It seems that this has gotten better over time. When I was young you went to church Sunday morning for Priesthood (VERY early) then Sunday School -- Junior Sunday School which included sacrament. Then you came back at 6:00 for an hour and a half sacrament meeting. Primary was on Tuesday night for an hour and a half. Then there was Relief Society meeting. Add in the various activities and you'd contributed a pretty huge amount. The merging of most of those meetings to the three hour block was huge. Since then they've been trying to shorten or eliminate all the other meetings people had for callings. 

For singles I think the situation is different since you tend to have a lot more free time when single and are often looking for socialization. In a certain way the complain for singles - especially the over 25 crowd - is that there's not enough socialization. (Part of that is of course the existing services often aren't terribly satisfying for what one wants)

For married people ones time is often so short at the best of times that just going on a date with your spouse can be hard. Eliminating meetings helps a lot. But it's hard to say the problem is Church so much as family. (Not that family is trying - but with all the home work, PTA meetings, athletics and dance classes, school projects, then the occasional fun family home evening and suddenly there's little time left)

I guess it depends, but I've heard about contracts that some SPs have newly returned missionaries sign, and they're supposed to commit to all these meetings and meet regularly for PPIs and check ins and all kinds of nonsense. That would have driven me to inactivity in a month!

[clarkgoble]

11 hours ago, Gray said:

I guess it depends, but I've heard about contracts that some SPs have newly returned missionaries sign, and they're supposed to commit to all these meetings and meet regularly for PPIs and check ins and all kinds of nonsense. That would have driven me to inactivity in a month!

Really? I've never heard of that. PPIs usually are just a brief visit or more often talk during church. At least that's how we always did them. What meetings beyond regular Sunday services are they supposed to commit to?

[Jeanne]

I don't know if this has any bearing on the OP..but I found it quite interesting.  My son moved out almost 8 months ago..he now living in a huge house with 4 other guys.  Two of these guys are BYU alumni..continuing education at USU...and both are return missionaries.  They left BYU very unattached to the church after missions.  They don't say anything bad or derisive about mormonism..but they just quit.  One RM told my son that he had a companion that would say just dumb words when people answered the door to prove that they were not interested or even listening...but there are a lot of my daughters friends who are active at USU...who are simply walking away..not quitting..but just totally apathetic about the church and attending religious classes on campus.

[thesometimesaint]

You can get anything you want at BYU, as well as somethings you don't want. Including a loss of testimony.

[Benk]

Jeanne, that is interesting. Do you have any sense of why that might be?

 

However you look at it, its clear the church has a long way to go to meet the needs of its young folk. I wish we could do better from the unit level, right the way up. If it's true that institute has a positive effect, another interesting discussion would be what else does. I know Jana Reiss has been doing some work on this, but the more ideas that are out there the better. If anyone has any, feel free to chime in.

[clarkgoble]

On 11/16/2017 at 10:25 AM, Jeanne said:

I don't know if this has any bearing on the OP..but I found it quite interesting.  My son moved out almost 8 months ago..he now living in a huge house with 4 other guys.  Two of these guys are BYU alumni..continuing education at USU...and both are return missionaries.  They left BYU very unattached to the church after missions.  They don't say anything bad or derisive about mormonism..but they just quit.  One RM told my son that he had a companion that would say just dumb words when people answered the door to prove that they were not interested or even listening...but there are a lot of my daughters friends who are active at USU...who are simply walking away..not quitting..but just totally apathetic about the church and attending religious classes on campus.

That was true 25 years ago when I was at BYU too. I'm not sure that's new.

[Jeanne]

38 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

That was true 25 years ago when I was at BYU too. I'm not sure that's new.

Perhaps not new...I just didn't know a lot of people at BYU back in the day.