Could Joseph Smith have known about NHM?

[Rivers]

Is it possible that Joseph had access to a map that showed NHM?  

If so, does this diminish NHM as Book of Mormon evidence?

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Is it possible that Joseph had access to a map that showed NHM?  

If so, does this diminish NHM as Book of Mormon evidence?

Jeff Lindsay addressed this issue at some length here:

Quote

The Arabian Peninsula now provides a surprisingly rich body of evidence in support of the plausibility of Nephi’s account of the journey that Lehi’s family took on their way from Jerusalem to a coastal site they called Bountiful. This body of evidence, reviewed briefly later in this paper, has often been ignored or treated superficially by our critics. However, recently a seemingly thorough contrarian view has been offered by an anonymous but well educated writer, “RT,” on the Faith Promoting Rumor blog at Patheos.com. RT agrees with and builds on a critical assessment in a recent post from a professor of history, Philip Jenkins, in his blog The Anxious Bench also at Patheos.com. These authors raise significant arguments that merit a response. They suggest that Nephi’s account has elements that raise suspicion and point to fabrication by Joseph Smith, with the assured assistance of a detailed map that could have guided him, for example, in placing Nahom in what LDS apologists see as exactly the right place. While there is no evidence that Joseph had such a map or access to one, the critics are certain that he must have seen and studied one to guide him in describing the journey through the Arabian Peninsula.

...

In Section 1, we will summarize the numerous arguments that have been recently launched against Lehi’s Trail, with brief responses. Then in Section 2 we’ll review highlights of the Arabian evidence for Lehi’s Trail before dealing later in more detail with the two issues I consider most weighty: the alleged use of a map of Arabia by Joseph Smith, covered in Section 3, and the impact of biblical scholarship regarding the Pentateuch on Nephi’s writings, treated in Section 4.
In Section 3, while examining the possibility of maps having guided Joseph, I will argue that attempts to explain the evidence from Arabia with the aid of a map requires something of a dream map with far more information than Joseph possibly could have gleaned from any known source in his day.

These "He must've had a map because . . . he must've!"-style, evidence-free speculations are, I think, evidence that "NHM" is pretty good evidence.

The entire article (which is Part 1 - here is a link to Part 2) is definitely worth a read.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[Glenn101]

Yes, Joseph could have known about NHM. There were several maps that showed Nehhm, or Nehem that were available in Joseph's day. If it could be shown that had access to them it would diminish the NHM as Book of Mormon evidence. To the skeptics that is almost a given, i.e. that Joseph saw a map with Nehem or Nehhm on it.

Glenn

[Rivers]

3 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

Yes, Joseph could have known about NHM. There were several maps that showed Nehhm, or Nehem that were available in Joseph's day. If it could be shown that had access to them it would diminish the NHM as Book of Mormon evidence. To the skeptics that is almost a given, i.e. that Joseph saw a map with Nehem or Nehhm on it.

Glenn

So let’s say Joseph did see Nehem on a map.  This would be before he started studying Hebrew in which vowels weren’t used.  Why would he change it from “Nehem” to “Nahom?”

[Glenn101]

9 minutes ago, Rivers said:

So let’s say Joseph did see Nehem on a map.  This would be before he started studying Hebrew in which vowels weren’t used.  Why would he change it from “Nehem” to “Nahom?”

I am not saying that he did. I don't believe that he did. It is just a possibility. As Jeff Lindsay noted in his article, efforts to connect Joseph with any of the maps so far have been unsuccessful. 

Glenn

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

Is it possible that Joseph had access to a map that showed NHM?  

Yes, it is, but no one has shown that Dartmouth or any nearby library had any such map at the time, so I feel the likelihood is very remote. One argument I have not seen raised is that years later it seems attention was drawn to the route in an effort to understand or verify the BoM by some Church members. IIRC Brother Williams made mention of the 19th parallel as a possible point at which the Lehi clan turned east. This shows possible discussion of the issue with Joseph Smith in one of the priesthood meetings. The 19th parallel is a good 200 miles or so north of the NHM region of Yemen, and there is no mention of the NHM region. It seems if it was known by Joseph Smith, it probably would have come up, and gotten attention - yet, there is no evidence of this. So if Joseph Smith had looked it up somehow before writing the BoM, he was mysteriously quiet about the region when the issue was discussed. This would seem quite uncharacteristic of a fraudster or plagiarizer who would do things for attention, so I feel this becomes another strong argument for the authenticity of the BoM. 

Quote

If so, does this diminish NHM as Book of Mormon evidence?

Not very much for the reasons stated above.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

...........................................

These "He must've had a map because . . . he must've!"-style, evidence-free speculations are, I think, evidence that "NHM" is pretty good evidence.

.........................................................

You're right, Spencer.  It is noteworthy that they are so quick to pooh, pooh the value of Nahom as evidence of authenticity, but at the same time so intent on claiming that Joseph saw a map of Arabia.  They want to have it both ways, no matter how self-contradictory their twin claims.

[Stargazer]

If an unearthed city in Mesoamerica were to be discovered to have a "Welcome to Zarahemla" road sign, I think we'd see exactly what we're seeing with NHM: vigorous and desperate attempts to spin it any other way than as evidence for the Book of Mormon.

[Calm]

The Interpreter article probably has this material, but I haven't read it yet so just in case:

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Did_Joseph_Smith_have_access_to_materials_related_to_Nahom_at_Allegheny_College%3F

[Calm]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Yes, it is, but no one has shown that Dartmouth or any nearby library had any such map at the time, so I feel the likelihood is very remote. One argument I have not seen raised is that years later it seems attention was drawn to the route in an effort to understand or verify the BoM by some Church members. IIRC Brother Williams made mention of the 19th parallel as a possible point at which the Lehi clan turned east. This shows possible discussion of the issue with Joseph Smith in one of the priesthood meetings. The 19th parallel is a good 200 miles or so north of the NHM region of Yemen, and there is no mention of the NHM region. It seems if it was known by Joseph Smith, it probably would have come up, and gotten attention - yet, there is no evidence of this. So if Joseph Smith had looked it up somehow before writing the BoM, he was mysteriously quiet about the region when the issue was discussed. This would seem quite uncharacteristic of a fraudster or plagiarizer who would do things for attention, so I feel this becomes another strong argument for the authenticity of the BoM. 

Not very much for the reasons stated above.

It would be strange if he went to the effort to make it authentic in appearance, but then never drew attention to the 'authentic' tidbit he included.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

3 hours ago, Rivers said:

Is it possible that Joseph had access to a map that showed NHM?  

As a student (1811 to 1812) Hyrum Smith had access to the Dartmouth library.  Defenders argue that Darmouth acquired a copy of the 1792 Nehem book map in 1937, more than 100 years later.  However, the 1792 Nehem book map was available in US libraries when Hyrum was a student, it is possible that Darmouth had a copy in 1811. According to Darmouth website "many volumes had been lost" before 1825, so we may never know for sure. 

But I don't believe Joseph or his brother looked at the 1792 map, it is a theory that I find completely unnecessary. In the other thread I explain why I think coincidence is a more reasonable possibility. 

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

These "He must've had a map because . . . he must've!"-style, evidence-free speculations are, I think, evidence that "NHM" is pretty good evidence.

We all speculate. Both defenders and anti-mormons do a lot of speculation. I am not very impressed with NHM, and I don't believe in the map theory. 

40 minutes ago, Calm said:

The Interpreter article probably has this material, but I haven't read it yet so just in case:

Does it address the possibility that Darmouth may have had a copy before 1825? 

Edited October 18, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Glenn101]

54 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

But I don't believe Joseph or his brother looked at the 1792 map, it is a theory that I find completely unnecessary. In the other thread I explain why I think coincidence is a more reasonable possibility. 

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

You have tried to explain. So far it has not gone very well.

 

[thesometimesaint]

7 hours ago, Rivers said:

Is it possible that Joseph had access to a map that showed NHM?  

If so, does this diminish NHM as Book of Mormon evidence?

Possible, but highly unlikely.

No. The letters  MHM bear no relationship to the claims of  the Book of Mormon.

[Ntrw]

Even if he had a map, it wouldn't have helped.

 

https://averroes2.blogspot.jp/2016/04/failed-19th-century-attempts-at.html?m=1