Third Jerusalem Temple - Blueprint - Ezekiel or Temple Scroll?

[MDalby]

I can't recall the reference but I seem to remember Hugh Nibley had the opinion that the third Jerusalem Temple would be built according to the blueprint in the Dead Sea Scrolls Temple Scroll vs the blueprint in Ezekiel.

Does anyone have any source that references the Temple Scroll vs Ezekiel?  Does anyone have any reference for this Nibley position?

 

Thank you

 

[cipriano]

Don't know, but I'm interested in the answer.

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by cipriano

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, MDalby said:

I can't recall the reference but I seem to remember Hugh Nibley had the opinion that the third Jerusalem Temple would be built according to the blueprint in the Dead Sea Scrolls Temple Scroll vs the blueprint in Ezekiel.

Does anyone have any source that references the Temple Scroll vs Ezekiel?  Does anyone have any reference for this Nibley position?

The Temple Institute of Jerusalem says this....

Quote

According to the great sages of Israel, it is a positive commandment for the people of Israel to rebuild the Holy Temple conforming to the dimensions, characteristics and attributes of the Second Temple. Thus, although there were differences between the First and Second Temples, and vast differences between both of these and the vision of Ezekiel - it is the details of the Second Temple that are binding upon Israel for all time. This is why the majority of the Temple Institute's work and research, both in artistic representation as well as actual Temple restoration, centers on the aspects of the Second Temple....

All of those details from Ezekiel's prophecy that were not explained in the Second Temple era, remain sealed until that time when "the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of G-d, as the waters that cover the sea" (Isaiah 11:9). In the future, we shall be enlightened with a higher level of spiritual awareness and consciousness, and at that time we will have the ability to perceive the deeper meaning of all those portions of Ezekiel's vision that had heretofore been inaccessible. Until that time, it is the Second Temple's attributes that must be upheld when rebuilding the Temple. Most importantly, Israel's Divine obligation to rebuild the Holy Temple remains a constant and unchanging factor in the nation's life, throughout every generation.

https://www.templeinstitute.org/future_temple.htm

[Robert F. Smith]

16 hours ago, MDalby said:

I can't recall the reference but I seem to remember Hugh Nibley had the opinion that the third Jerusalem Temple would be built according to the blueprint in the Dead Sea Scrolls Temple Scroll vs the blueprint in Ezekiel.

Does anyone have any source that references the Temple Scroll vs Ezekiel?  Does anyone have any reference for this Nibley position?

........

The basic information is available in the following:

http://virtualreligion.net/iho/11QT.html .

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/temple-antiquity-ancient-records-and-modern-perspectives/new-temple-festivals-temple-scroll .

Maier, Johann, The Temple Scroll: An Introduction, Translation & Commentary, JSOT Suppl. Series 34 (Sheffield: Univ. of Sheffield/Trowbridge, 1985); translation of Die Tempelrolle vom Toten Meer (Munich, 1978). 

Wise, Michael O., A Critical Study of the Temple Scroll from Qumran Cave 11, SAOC 49 (Oriental Institute, Univ. of Chicago, 1990), online at https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/saoc49.pdf .

The plan for that eschatological (Qumran) temple was interpreted by Y. Yadin as follows:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiD-oatldrWAhVMz1QKHZmJC4UQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmuseum.imj.org.il%2Fshrine_center%2FTemple_article.html&psig=AOvVaw3CqJxbbKXITlO88xmFMtPi&ust=1507316413937804 .

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj_teiCltrWAhWri1QKHenpAtgQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishmag.com%2F111mag%2Ftemple%2Ftemple.htm&psig=AOvVaw3CqJxbbKXITlO88xmFMtPi&ust=1507316413937804 .

[Robert F. Smith]

Here is Ezekiel's temple plan:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjkrLm7l9rWAhUE02MKHVBHDGYQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcafn.us%2Ftag%2Fezekiels-temple%2F&psig=AOvVaw0QVeAfA224wn_MhhiqpaVF&ust=1507316880313183 .

 

[RevTestament]

17 hours ago, MDalby said:

I can't recall the reference but I seem to remember Hugh Nibley had the opinion that the third Jerusalem Temple would be built according to the blueprint in the Dead Sea Scrolls Temple Scroll vs the blueprint in Ezekiel.

Does anyone have any source that references the Temple Scroll vs Ezekiel?  Does anyone have any reference for this Nibley position?

Here is the temple of Ezekiel:
Zech 6:

12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

[Bobbieaware]

17 hours ago, MDalby said:

I can't recall the reference but I seem to remember Hugh Nibley had the opinion that the third Jerusalem Temple would be built according to the blueprint in the Dead Sea Scrolls Temple Scroll vs the blueprint in Ezekiel.

Does anyone have any source that references the Temple Scroll vs Ezekiel?  Does anyone have any reference for this Nibley position?

 

Thank you

 

For what it's worth, the following, quotations indicate the temple in Jerusalem will be a temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and will be built, at least in part, by Jews who have been converted to Christ and his Restored Gospel:

"When the Jews receive the fulness of the everlasting gospel…they will return to Jerusalem as the Lord’s true legal administrators to build up Jerusalem as a Zion and to place again on the ancient site the temple of the new kingdom.” (John Taylor, The Gospel Kingdom, p. 293)

” The temple in Jerusalem will not be built by Jews who have assembled there for political purposes as at present… But it will be built by Jews who have come unto Christ, who once again are in the true fold of their ancient Shepherd, and who have learned anew about temples because they know that Elijah did come… (Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah, pp. 279-280.)

"The building of the temple in Jerusalem …will be directly related to the Gospel as restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith and to the glorious Second Coming of the Lord. It will not be part of any form of sectarianism… and will never be clouded by any uncertainties as to its purpose. Any  temple of the Lord…will be His abiding place, His sanctuary, His designated dwelling wherein ordinances of salvation will be performed. All of this requires His revealed direction and the services of His…authorized priesthood.” (Church News, August 7, 1971, p. 16)

[MDalby]

As far as the temple being built by the Church, I don't believe that will be the case.

I see the sequence of events as the following:

1. Preparatory gathering of the Jews to Israel - That is currently underway.  This gathering will primarily be unbelieving Jews but they will begin to believe in the Messiah and they will begin to gather.
2. Building up of Jerusalem and the Third Temple
3. The Armageddon events including the Savior appearing at the Mount of Olives, the converting of the Jews as a people, Water coming out from under the temple and healing the Dead Sea.
4. After the Jews are converted, there will be the primary gathering of the Jews to Jerusalem, their land of inheritance.

We know that the Jews as a people will not believe until the Savior appears at the Mount of Olives.  There are Messianic Jews today and the Jewish people are starting to believe.

7 And it shall come to pass that the Jews which are scattered also shall begin to believe in Christ; and they shall begin to gather in upon the face of the land; and as many as shall believe in Christ shall also become a delightsome people.
(2 Nephi 30:7)

As I have been reading to you today, the Jews have got to gather to their own land in unbelief. They will go and rebuild Jerusalem and their temple. They will take their gold and silver from the nations and will gather to the Holy Land, and when they have done this and rebuilt their city, the Gentiles, in fulfillment of the words of Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and other prophets, will go up against Jerusalem to battle and to take a spoil and a prey; and then, when they have taken one-half of Jerusalem captive and distressed the Jews for the last time on the earth, their Great Deliverer, Shiloh, will come.
(W Woodruff, JD, 15:35

But the Jews will largely not recognize Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah until His appearance to the Jews at the Mount of Olives to save the Jews from Gog and Magog at Armageddon.

47 Then shall the arm of the Lord fall upon the nations.
48 And then shall the Lord set his foot upon this mount, and it shall cleave in twain, and the earth shall tremble, and reel to and fro, and the heavens also shall shake.
49 And the Lord shall utter his voice, and all the ends of the earth shall hear it; and the nations of the earth shall mourn, and they that have laughed shall see their folly.
50 And calamity shall cover the mocker, and the scorner shall be consumed; and they that have watched for iniquity shall be hewn down and cast into the fire.
51 And then shall the Jews look upon me and say: What are these wounds in thine hands and in thy feet?
52 Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God.
53 And then shall they weep because of their iniquities; then shall they lament because they persecuted their king.
(D&C 45:47-53)

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
(Zech 14:4-8)

So the Savior appears at the Mount of Olives and IN THAT DAY there will be another sign similar to his birth where there is a day/night/day without it being dark.  Also IN THAT DAY, water will go out from Jerusalem and heal the Dead Sea.

Joseph Smith tells us that the water that goes out from Jerusalem to heal the Dead Sea is water that will come out from under the temple.

Judah must return, Jerusalem must be rebuilt, and the temple, and water come out from under the temple … and all this must be done before the Son of Man will make His appearance (referencing the Savior's coming in glory).”
(Joseph Smith, Documentary History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 337.)

But, we know that the major gathering of the Jews to Jerusalem will not occur until they believe.  The Savior's appearance at the Battle of Armageddon converts the Jewish people and the people will gather to their land of inheritance.

29 And I will remember the covenant which I have made with my people; and I have covenanted with them that I would gather them together in mine own due time, that I would give unto them again the land of their fathers for their inheritance, which is the land of Jerusalem, which is the promised land unto them forever, saith the Father.
30 And it shall come to pass that the time cometh, when the fulness of my gospel shall be preached unto them;
31 And they shall believe in me, that I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and shall pray unto the Father in my name.
32 Then shall their watchmen lift up their voice, and with the voice together shall they sing; for they shall see eye to eye.
33 Then will the Father gather them together again, and give unto them Jerusalem for the land of their inheritance.
34 Then shall they break forth into joy—Sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Father hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
35 The Father hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; (referencing the Savior's appearance on the Mount of Olives at the Battle of Armageddon - D&C 45:47) and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of the Father; and the Father and I are one.
36 And then shall be brought to pass that which is written: Awake, awake again, and put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city, for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
(3 Nephi 20:29-36)

We do know that at some point, the Jerusalem temple will conduct baptisms for the dead so there will be restored ordinances performed in the Jerusalem Temple.

36 For it is ordained that in Zion, and in her stakes, and in Jerusalem, those places which I have appointed for refuge, shall be the places for your baptisms for your dead.
(D&C 124:36)

 

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by MDalby

[ksfisher]

6 minutes ago, MDalby said:

As far as the temple being built by the Church, I don't believe that will be the case.

I see the sequence of events as the following:

1. Preparatory gathering of the Jews to Israel - That is currently underway.  This gathering will primarily be unbelieving Jews but they will begin to believe in the Messiah and they will begin to gather.
2. Building up of Jerusalem and the Third Temple
3. The Armageddon events including the Savior appearing at the Mount of Olives, the converting of the Jews as a people, Water coming out from under the temple and healing the Dead Sea.
4. After the Jews are converted, there will be the primary gathering of the Jews to Jerusalem, their land of inheritance.

 

 

If the third temple is not built by the Church then it would seem that the priesthood authority necessary for it to function as a temple of the Lord would not be present.  It would then be just the equivalent of a cathedral, mosque, or synagogue. 

[clarkgoble]

11 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

If the third temple is not built by the Church then it would seem that the priesthood authority necessary for it to function as a temple of the Lord would not be present.  It would then be just the equivalent of a cathedral, mosque, or synagogue. 

Not necessarily. That's been interpreted in various ways. There's a strong reason to think that the levitical priesthood authority was never taken away. With that reading the sons of Levi would offer sacrifice in terms of that priesthood prior to accepting Christ. Others think that this would only happen after accepting Christ. In my opinion the revelations are ambiguous or to a degree contradictory.

[MDalby]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

If the third temple is not built by the Church then it would seem that the priesthood authority necessary for it to function as a temple of the Lord would not be present.  It would then be just the equivalent of a cathedral, mosque, or synagogue. 

I think that is the case.  We of course know that Herod did not have the Priesthood for the building of the second temple.

[ksfisher]

41 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Not necessarily. That's been interpreted in various ways. There's a strong reason to think that the levitical priesthood authority was never taken away. With that reading the sons of Levi would offer sacrifice in terms of that priesthood prior to accepting Christ. Others think that this would only happen after accepting Christ. In my opinion the revelations are ambiguous or to a degree contradictory.

How does that work with our belief that all the keys of the priesthood present on earth at this time are held by the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  It would seem then that those sacrifices would need to be carried out under the prophets authority as he is the presiding high priest.

[ksfisher]

42 minutes ago, MDalby said:

I think that is the case.  We of course know that Herod did not have the Priesthood for the building of the second temple.

Perhaps Herod was just the sub contractor. 

[clarkgoble]

7 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

How does that work with our belief that all the keys of the priesthood present on earth at this time are held by the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  It would seem then that those sacrifices would need to be carried out under the prophets authority as he is the presiding high priest.

The President would in theory be able to remove the authority but presumably wouldn't due to God directing him.

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

The President would in theory be able to remove the authority but presumably wouldn't due to God directing him.

But the building of the temple and any work performed therein would need to be carried out by his authority and under his direction, wouldn't it?

And for sacrifices, carried out by proper priesthood authority, to be performed there those rites and ordinances would need to be restored.  And it would seem that this restoration would need to come through the prophet.

I just don't see how a temple, not built by the church, fits in with restored pattern of priesthood organization.  It would seem to require a priesthood authority existing on the earth that was not under the direction of the Lord's prophets and apostles.

 

[strappinglad]

The temple could be built by Jews and or others and then be dedicated to the saving ordinances under the authority of the Prophet at some time in the future, kind of like the Provo Tabernacle was re- assigned as a temple ( after extensive renovations ) . If Christ directs the building of the third temple we might just have to add a few more rooms etc.

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

But the building of the temple and any work performed therein would need to be carried out by his authority and under his direction, wouldn't it?

Not necessarily. Who held the keys in say 70 AD? Were the Nephites acting under his authority?

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

..........................................

” The temple in Jerusalem will not be built by Jews who have assembled there for political purposes as at present… But it will be built by Jews who have come unto Christ, who once again are in the true fold of their ancient Shepherd, and who have learned anew about temples because they know that Elijah did come… (Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah, pp. 279-280.)

Elder McConkie's case would be more convincing if he hadn't completely ignored the Orson Hyde 1841 dedication of Palestine to the Gathering of the Jews and to their rebuilding of their temple in Jerusalem.  He also ignored any associated prophecies in Zechariah and the D&C which indicate that the Jews will not be converted before they gather.  This is blind supercessionism.

Quote

"The building of the temple in Jerusalem …will be directly related to the Gospel as restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith and to the glorious Second Coming of the Lord. It will not be part of any form of sectarianism… and will never be clouded by any uncertainties as to its purpose. Any  temple of the Lord…will be His abiding place, His sanctuary, His designated dwelling wherein ordinances of salvation will be performed. All of this requires His revealed direction and the services of His…authorized priesthood.” (Church News, August 7, 1971, p. 16)

Canonical sources are normative here:  The D&C accepts the lineal descent of the priesthood of Aaron among the Jews (D&C 68:16, 107:16).  Read Romans 11.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[MDalby]

On 10/5/2017 at 7:35 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Elder McConkie's case would be more convincing if he hadn't completely ignored the Orson Hyde 1841 dedication of Palestine to the Gathering of the Jews and to their rebuilding of their temple in Jerusalem.  He also ignored any associated prophecies in Zechariah and the D&C which indicate that the Jews will not be converted before they gather.  This is blind supercessionism.

Canonical sources are normative here:  The D&C accepts the lineal descent of the priesthood of Aaron among the Jews (D&C 68:16, 107:16).  Read Romans 11.

Robert..  I am in agreement with you that I think the unbelieving Jews will build the temple, but I am unsure how your references support that they would have priesthood authority.  Not sure how we can determine that the D&C references give the literal descendants of Aaron authority that is not under the direction of the First Presidency.  I thought the verses you reference in D&C had to do with the right to bishopric.

• By revelation, the Lord has designated these "literal descendants" as individuals who "have a legal right to the bishopric, if they are the firstborn among the sons of Aaron" (D&C 68:16-18; 107:16). The "bishopric" mentioned "has no reference whatever to bishops of wards," said President Joseph Fielding Smith, but instead refers to one who has been designated to preside over the Aaronic Priesthood by the First Presidency of the Church. 
  (DS 3:92; D&C 68:21).

Help me understand how you see the D&C references relate to Romans 11.

Thank you!

 

MD

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, MDalby said:

Robert..  I am in agreement with you that I think the unbelieving Jews will build the temple, but I am unsure how your references support that they would have priesthood authority.

The D&C references basically make the point that the Aaronic priesthood among the Jews is a permanent lineal right.  Thus, if an Aaronide joins the LDS Church he can claim that right - - and thus be vetted by the First Presidency.  Otherwise, within the LDS tradition, non-Aaronides must be ordained to perform that function -- in place of Aaronides.  That is, the descendants of Aaron hold that right in perpetuity (D&C 84:18, Exodus 40:15), and are currently recognized as such in all Jewish synagogues.  That priesthood is currently planning the rebuilding of their temple in Jerusalem, and they plan to serve in it.  They would laugh out loud if someone suggested that they will do so under Mormon control.  Certainly Orson Hyde's apostolic dedication (ordered by Joseph Smith) suggested no such thing.

2 hours ago, MDalby said:

  Not sure how we can determine that the D&C references give the literal descendants of Aaron authority that is not under the direction of the First Presidency.  I thought the verses you reference in D&C had to do with the right to bishopric.

• By revelation, the Lord has designated these "literal descendants" as individuals who "have a legal right to the bishopric, if they are the firstborn among the sons of Aaron" (D&C 68:16-18; 107:16). The "bishopric" mentioned "has no reference whatever to bishops of wards," said President Joseph Fielding Smith, but instead refers to one who has been designated to preside over the Aaronic Priesthood by the First Presidency of the Church. 
  (DS 3:92; D&C 68:21).

Help me understand how you see the D&C references relate to Romans 11.  ...............................

Romans 11 is anti-supercession, making the point that the Gentiles have not replaced Israel (Jews), which is also the  point made in Jacob 5 -6 in the Book of Mormon (see also Article of Faith #10).  The D&C references likewise make the point that the Aaronic priesthood continues within Judaism.  Many who do not understand this imagine that the LDS Church will be controlling the Jews at some point.  That is not the message of Zechariah (12:10, 13:6, 14:4) or the D&C (45:48-53) -- the Savior comes directly to the Jews at the Mount of Olives in their moment of desperation, showing them the marks of his crucifixion.  Only then will they recognize him as their Messiah.  One may then find Isaiah 2:1-5 (2 Nephi 12:1-5) taking full effect as the eschaton comes in.  We are, after all, Saints of the Last Days.

Needless to say, I disagree with Elder Joseph Fielding Smith's interpretation, which was in any case made before he was LDS President.