Popular Post Calm Posted October 2, 2017 Popular Post Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) "I think he's modeling a middle ground" Calling church leadership abusive is not middle ground. Calling the Church unhealthy is not middle ground. Edited October 2, 2017 by Calm 9
DBMormon Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Here is a sampling of your own words from this thread: No only is much of this hyperbole, but some of it is actually false -- as has been pointed out to you. I am still waiting for the exaggerated parts. we disagree
DBMormon Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Why would you want to validate unhealthiness? because people have experienced trauma and the institution while being culpable to a large degree and its manuals and lessons alway place the blame on the individual and not the institution. 2
DBMormon Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 1 hour ago, churchistrue said: My take on this thread: 1. I think Bill has been adequately faithful to the Bushman and Mason quotes, and when you some of you have argued against that, I feel like the argument against that is essentially a splitting hairs/semantics type thing. 2. I consider Bill a dear friend, even though we don't know each other that well IRL, and I deeply support his mission, which is to support and minister to those in pain over various LDS issues such as loss of faith, trust issues, marginalization, LGBT+ issues, gender equality, etc. But, there are times I wish Bill could do it in a more gentle way or be a little less negative. But, he has to be true to what he thinks his right. 3. I don't appreciate at all some here that have questioned his intelligence or motives or whatever. He's not an academic but he's obviously a smart guy and well researched. And he's consistent and honest. I hope he's not disciplined by the Church. I think he's modeling a middle ground that is extremely important not just to those in pain and marginalized right now, but for the viability and sustainability of Mormonism in general in the future. That said, I'd like to see him be a little bit more positive. Sorry, Bill. thank you. I am confident in the moral ground I hold and the space of belief I am in. Thank you for your support. 3
DBMormon Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 19 minutes ago, Calm said: "I think he's modeling a middle ground" Calling church leadership abusive is not middle ground. Calling the Church unhealthy is not middle ground. it is both. sometimes the truth of the harm an institution does is the middle ground. 1
churchistrue Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 11 minutes ago, Calm said: "I think he's modeling a middle ground" Calling church leadership abusive is not middle ground. Calling the Church unhealthy is not middle ground. I don't think he would state it broadly like that. If he did, I would probably agree with you that it is not middle ground. It's fair to say that for some people, the Church is not healthy. 1
Calm Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, churchistrue said: I don't think he would state it broadly like that. If he did, I would probably agree with you that it is not middle ground. He would have appeared to just confirmed it above. His site states: "The Church as an abusive Father"..."The Church, to me, is not comparable to a spouse but rather a parent. And not just any parent but rather an abusive father..." Not middle ground. 11 minutes ago, DBMormon said: it is both. sometimes the truth of the harm an institution does is the middle ground. If it's truth... Edited October 2, 2017 by Calm 2
DBMormon Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 6 minutes ago, churchistrue said: I don't think he would state it broadly like that. If he did, I would probably agree with you that it is not middle ground. It's fair to say that for some people, the Church is not healthy. she is referring to this blog post - http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/05/church-farther-figure/
DBMormon Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 15 minutes ago, Calm said: He would have appeared to just confirmed it above. His site states: "The Church as an abusive Father"..."The Church, to me, is not comparable to a spouse but rather a parent. And not just any parent but rather an abusive father..." Not middle ground. If it's truth... The Church can also be other things to other people. I think you over reach in assuming I think or believe or state that the Church is 100% bad to everyone. But your welcome to believe what you wish.
Calm Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, DBMormon said: The Church can also be other things to other people. I think you over reach in assuming I think or believe or state that the Church is 100% bad to everyone. But your welcome to believe what you wish. An abusive father is not 100% bad...I am not assuming you believe such about the Church. The use of the description "abusive father" for the Church is itself not "middle ground", even if you would qualify that as 'he only hit the kid once'. It is an extreme position that does not allow moderates in the faith to be part of the discussion, imo. Edited October 2, 2017 by Calm 4
Robert F. Smith Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 57 minutes ago, DBMormon said: I am still waiting for the exaggerated parts. we disagree Hyperbole is exaggeration for effect, perhaps to express a mood (a good or a bad mood), but is not accurate. You claim that your POV is "data driven," but I have yet to see the real data. In fact, you have made claims about the views of others which are blatantly false (Patrick Mason, for example). Since you have no academic training in historiography, you apparently don't see the need to actually quote people (in context). Instead, you give us what you think they meant, or what you wanted them to say, etc., which is a major problem when it comes to telling a true story about an organization or individual. By all means complain about actual problems. It will only harm your case when you spread false stories. Conveying your impressions to the rest of us may make you feel good, but I think that you'd feel a lot better if you dealt with such matters accurately. I would recommend that you begin your study of Mormonism by reading the essential works of Leonard Arrington, Armand Mauss, John Sorenson (on Mormon Culture), Jan Shipps, and Thomas F. O'Dea (The Mormons). From that solid base you could then branch out into specialized areas -- and perhaps actually understand what the culture is really all about. Thus far you just don't seem to get it. 4
Scott Lloyd Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, DBMormon said: because people have experienced trauma and the institution while being culpable to a large degree and its manuals and lessons alway place the blame on the individual and not the institution. Then your mission statement or statement of intent or whatever you choose to call it is awkwardly worded. "Validate unhealthiness" sounds like you approve of and support unhealthiness. You need a good editor. Edited October 2, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 3
Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted October 2, 2017 Popular Post Posted October 2, 2017 35 minutes ago, Calm said: An abusive father is not 100% bad...I am not assuming you believe such about the Church. The use of the description "abusive father" for the Church is itself not "middle ground", even if you would qualify that as 'he only hit the kid once'. It is an extreme position that does not allow moderates in the faith to be part of the discussion, imo. It is a scurrilous accusation. 8
readstoomuch Posted October 2, 2017 Author Posted October 2, 2017 In the podcasts I heard messy quite a bit and variations on that theme. Then unhealthiness, then the abusive parent. That may have been when I finally went to that place in my head where this isn`t a "middle ground" podcast any more. It can be a broken record also about all that the brethren do wrong. Are there refreshing and uplifting moments-yes, I can`t deny that. It`s just harder to find and if it gets hard enough it gets tiresome trying. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 47 minutes ago, Calm said: An abusive father is not 100% bad...I am not assuming you believe such about the Church. The use of the description "abusive father" for the Church is itself not "middle ground", even if you would qualify that as 'he only hit the kid once'. It is an extreme position that does not allow moderates in the faith to be part of the discussion, imo. I like this portion of Elder Holland's address at the conference: "Brothers and sisters, every one of us aspires to a more Christlike life than we often succeed in living. If we admit that honestly and are trying to improve, we are not hypocrites; we are human. May we refuse to let our own mortal follies, and the inevitable shortcomings of even the best men and women around us, make us cynical about the truths of the gospel, the truthfulness of the Church, our hope for our future or the possibility of true Godliness. "If we persevere, then somewhere in eternity our refinement will be finished and complete -- which is the New Testament meaning of perfection." 2
Kenngo1969 Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 I agree with Ann Landers, who once said that no one can hurt you, can make you feel inferior, et cetera, without your consent. Even if, granting solely arguendo (without so conceding), that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has hurt people, has inflicted genuine harm, and so on, the question then becomes, ergo, what? I might be able to suggest some sort of remedial or ameliorative course of action, but if I lack control over the institution I would like to implement that solution, then what? Very seldom do we have the degree of control we would like to have over our circumstances. About the only thing we can control is our reaction to our circumstances. 1
ALarson Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: I agree with Ann Landers, who once said that no one can hurt you, can make you feel inferior, et cetera, without your consent. She actually stated "No one can take advantage of you without your permission" (she called it "the Ann Lander's admonition"). I think that's different than stating that "no one can hurt you", "without your consent". I believe that much abuse and hurt takes place without the consent of the victim. (And, I don't really agree with the abusive Father comparison, so this isn't in defense of that....) Edited October 2, 2017 by ALarson 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 57 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: I agree with Ann Landers, who once said that no one can hurt you, can make you feel inferior, et cetera, without your consent. Even if, granting solely arguendo (without so conceding), that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has hurt people, has inflicted genuine harm, and so on, the question then becomes, ergo, what? I might be able to suggest some sort of remedial or ameliorative course of action, but if I lack control over the institution I would like to implement that solution, then what? Very seldom do we have the degree of control we would like to have over our circumstances. About the only thing we can control is our reaction to our circumstances. Ann Landers? I thought it was the queen's limo driver in "The Princess Diaries" who said that.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 54 minutes ago, ALarson said: She actually stated "No one can take advantage of you without your permission" (she called it "the Ann Lander's admonition"). I think that's different than stating that "no one can hurt you", "without your consent". I believe that much abuse and hurt takes place without the consent of the victim. (And, I don't really agree with the abusive Father comparison, so this isn't in defense of that....) The line of dialogue in "The Princess Diaries" is much closer to how Kenngo phrased it -- for what it's worth.
Kenngo1969 Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, ALarson said: She actually stated "No one can take advantage of you without your permission" (she called it "the Ann Lander's admonition"). I think that's different than stating that "no one can hurt you", "without your consent". I believe that much abuse and hurt takes place without the consent of the victim. (And, I don't really agree with the abusive Father comparison, so this isn't in defense of that....) I think, perhaps, that the "abuse" metaphor gets thrown around entirely too often. Yes, undeniably, horrible things happen: abuse, neglect, rape, murder, the list is endless. Yes, people may experience hurt in the Church of Jesus Christ or at the hands of some/one of its leaders or members. No, I don't mean to make light of any of that. Yes, criminal conduct should be dealt with by the authorities, and appropriate sanctions meted out. But even many people who have been victimized in horrible ways eventually heal. Rape is horrible, but even many (most, I daresay) rape victims heal (Elizabeth Smart-Gilmour is a terrific example of that); murder is horrible, but even many (again, most, I daresay) of those who have lost loved ones to that fate heal; and so on. If people can heal even from such undeniably horrible predations as that, then I fail to see how any putative harm inflicted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or by any of its leaders can compare. I deny that the Church of Jesus Christ as an institution, or that the vast majority of its leaders, ever set out to hurt anyone. If the "abuse" label gets attached to too wide of a variety of phenomena, then it loses its potency. And mischaracterizing or overstating a problem is, perhaps, the first step toward not solving it. Edited October 2, 2017 by Kenngo1969 2
Kenngo1969 Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Ann Landers? I thought it was the queen's limo driver in "The Princess Diaries" who said that. Could've been. I'll defer to you.
DBMormon Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Then your mission statement or statement of intent or whatever you choose to call it is awkwardly worded. "Validate unhealthiness" sounds like you approve of and support unhealthiness. You need a good editor. You need to check your stories before you print them but hey we all make mistakes.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Quote 4 hours ago, DBMormon said: because people have experienced trauma and the institution while being culpable to a large degree and its manuals and lessons alway place the blame on the individual and not the institution. Then your mission statement or statement of intent or whatever you choose to call it is awkwardly worded. "Validate unhealthiness" sounds like you approve of and support unhealthiness. You need a good editor. It might help for him to take a couple of semesters of college English composition -- just as we did when we were in college. Edited October 3, 2017 by Robert F. Smith
Robert F. Smith Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 5 minutes ago, rockpond said: I think those who find Bill's podcast to be negative ought to just ignore it. For me, listening to Bill has been an enlightening and often uplifting experience. Thank you for that @DBMormon! If we're now allowed to point out negativity, I'll say that listening to Dallin Oaks and reading posts by Scott Lloyd are key factors in making me want to distance myself from the church. Certainly not the case for what I hear and read from Bill Reel. We all prefer to listen to and read sources which buttress our strong beliefs, as well as to distance ourselves from anything which calls our apriori views into question. Not an auspicious basis for critical analysis, and certainly not scholarly.
ALarson Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: The line of dialogue in "The Princess Diaries" is much closer to how Kenngo phrased it -- for what it's worth. Actually I think the quote is originally attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt: "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” (But I was directly responding to Kennego's reference to what Ann Landers had stated.)
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