smac97 Posted September 12, 2017 Author Posted September 12, 2017 38 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: "Weird" true, if the one putting up money for what you define as an (or he does) "observant Mormon". It seems like very few people would be willing to pony up millions of dollars for a movie about Joseph Smith. Such folks could be generally categorized as A) very devoted members of the LDS Church, or B) very devoted critics of the LDS Church. Mr. Koerber seems to fall into the first category. 38 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Especially in such a movie if the funds are "misappropriated or stolen funds", it would seem that he is not an "observant Mormon", by any definition. I will leave it to the courts to determine Mr. Koerber's guilt or innocence on that score. For now, I am presuming he is innocent. That still leaves the weirdness of a Mormon funding a movie about Joseph Smith by funding a separate movie featuring gore, sex, profanity, etc. 38 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Also the member who "left in a very public way", like many who leave in that way there is often, anger, resentment and a need of revenge. Those who just leave quietly, or just stop attending, do so (often) in many different ways, usually still respect the Church, even if they no longer believe. In short they don't have an axe to grind. It appears Mr. Dutcher does not have an axe to grind (in contrast with other folks who, upon leaving the Church, have become very hostile to it). Thanks, -Smac 2
bluebell Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 42 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: No weirder than a Mormon starting a Ponzi scheme. I guess I see it as a little more weird. If he had started the Ponzi scheme speficially to advance a 'righteous' goal, then I think they'd be easier to compare. Members sin all the time and justify it, so that doesn't surprise me. But when someone does the equivalent of taking up stripping to pay for a mission, that seems like a different level of irrationality. 2
jkwilliams Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 1 minute ago, bluebell said: I guess I see it as a little more weird. If he had started the Ponzi scheme speficially to advance a 'righteous' goal, then I think they'd be easier to compare. Members sin all the time and justify it, so that doesn't surprise me. But when someone does the equivalent of taking up stripping to pay for a mission, that seems like a different level of irrationality. Are you familiar with his radio show and other media? His whole premise was that he was showing a righteous way to make money and prosper, and he often talked about how if you gained wealth, you could further the mission of the church. I don't think it's any weirder to say, "Let's make an R-rated movie so we can finance a church-related project" than "Let's steal a lot of money to finance the same project."
bluebell Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Are you familiar with his radio show and other media? His whole premise was that he was showing a righteous way to make money and prosper, and he often talked about how if you gained wealth, you could further the mission of the church. I don't think it's any weirder to say, "Let's make an R-rated movie so we can finance a church-related project" than "Let's steal a lot of money to finance the same project." Yeah that's probably equally weird. Which I guess makes sense since it's the same guy doing both things. He's obviously either irrational, deluded, or just a run-of-the-mill evil guy pretending he's not.
Guest Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Things are good. The silver lining to Hurricane Harvey is that my daughter and baby granddaughter are staying with us until my daughter can get into a walking boot, at which time she can go home to Houston. In the meantime, I am loving being a grandfather. Hope you're doing well, too. You're a good man. Being a grandfather is one of life's greatest blessings. Since my son, moved back here from Utah, I have the joy of seeing all my kids and grandkids, every Sunday for supper. It is loud, and happy. The grandkids love taking walks around our land, with their Papa. Also, every weekend, two are more argue as to who gets to stay overnight on Fridays and Saturdays. We are all in the same Ward, so the kids are reunited with their parents in Church. I try to be a good man, husband, father, grandfather, but often dwell on my weaknesses that drags me down. But thank you for saying it. As far as hurricanes, Atlanta took a beating, we were without power for some time, my youngest daughter still is without power. In fact in Atlanta right now, more than 1,000,000 homes and businesses are without power due to downed trees. All we got was strong winds and rain, but for those in Florida have big problems. I used to have many skill sets, that allowed me to travel and help as I have done many times. Now, I am just a broken down old man, with a broken back. Now, I am useless and can do nothing more than pray for those whom I could have otherwised helped. But, I am glad you are well, and your daughter and grand baby. I pray God's blessings, for you all. Be well.
jkwilliams Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Being a grandfather is one of life's greatest blessings. Since my son, moved back here from Utah, I have the joy of seeing all my kids and grandkids, every Sunday for supper. It is loud, and happy. The grandkids love taking walks around our land, with their Papa. Also, every weekend, two are more argue as to who gets to stay overnight on Fridays and Saturdays. We are all in the same Ward, so the kids are reunited with their parents in Church. I try to be a good man, husband, father, grandfather, but often dwell on my weaknesses that drags me down. But thank you for saying it. As far as hurricanes, Atlanta took a beating, we were without power for some time, my youngest daughter still is without power. In fact in Atlanta right now, more than 1,000,000 homes and businesses are without power due to downed trees. All we got was strong winds and rain, but for those in Florida have big problems. I used to have many skill sets, that allowed me to travel and help as I have done many times. Now, I am just a broken down old man, with a broken back. Now, I am useless and can do nothing more than pray for those whom I could have otherwised helped. But, I am glad you are well, and your daughter and grand baby. I pray God's blessings, for you all. Be well. You'll never be useless, Bill. You'll never know how much your friendship has meant to me in tough times when I felt alone. You're a wonderful man, and I'm so glad you are OK after the storm. And I'm very jealous that you get your grandkids every weekend. 1
Guest Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: You'll never be useless, Bill. You'll never know how much your friendship has meant to me in tough times when I felt alone. You're a wonderful man, and I'm so glad you are OK after the storm. And I'm very jealous that you get your grandkids every weekend. It is indeed wonderful to see them so much. During the summer, one or two are always here. We have a very large yard and property that allows then all the room in which to play. Plus, they know Nanny and Papa, will give in and give them what they want, even if it is just more attention Right now we have two granddaughters who are middle children, so they crave more attention.
jkwilliams Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: It is indeed wonderful to see them so much. During the summer, one or two are always here. We have a very large yard and property that allows then all the room in which to play. Plus, they know Nanny and Papa, will give in and give them what they want, even if it is just more attention Right now we have two granddaughters who are middle children, so they crave more attention. I just have the one, so she is pretty spoiled when we're around. 1
stemelbow Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 5 hours ago, smac97 said: Mostly the latter. I had anticipated that Dutcher-made movie about Joseph Smith would be generally respectful (though no doubt still controversial). I suppose. But don't you see something of an incongruity here? An (apparently) observant Mormon wants to fund a movie about Joseph Smith, so he (allegedly) uses misappropriated (stolen) money to pay an ex-Mormon to make a horror movie full of gore and profanity and sex, which will hopefully make enough money to fund the Joseph Smith movie. To me, that's weird. Thanks, -Smac I guess. It almost sounds like Dutcher conned the con-man walking away with 5 million? or did he pay the guy back after the film was made? Anyway, I suppose if the guy is running a Ponzi scheme, getting rich, I doubt he cares much about a Mormon taboo of sex scenes and the like.
stemelbow Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 5 hours ago, bluebell said: Don't you think it's weird that a mormon would want to make a gory violent movie with lots of sex scenes so they could finance a movie about the founding of the church? It doesn't sound like that's what it was, was it? I thought the guy making the movie had left the Church and the guy helping to finance was running a Ponzi scheme. It doesnt' seem like the guy making the movie knew the other guy was bilking people for money. But maybe he did and tricked him out of 5 million since it appeared he was getting away with it at the time?
Calm Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) http://www.heraldextra.com/news/opinion/utah-valley/richard-dutcher-parting-words-on-mormon-movies/article_c07f4ae0-bbee-5265-89c1-bae7b12ce676.html I think the impression he was leaving because of supposedly rejection of or at least low enthusiasm for his work may have been influenced by some over the top post membership poking at the Church behaviour by him such as this: https://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/17/dear-richard-dutcher/ I am not struck by any great commitment to any specific spiritual community here: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/novemberweb-only/richarddutcher.html "I was 8 when my mother married this Mormon guy, and it was like, "Well, we're going to be Mormons now." But whenever I was with my mother's family, we'd attend Pentecostal services. And my real father's family were Baptists. So we kind of hopped all around. It's strange to be a part of different faith communities. Pentecostal preachers were trying to save me from Mormonism. And Mormon leaders thought any other religion was a waste of time. But as a kid, I didn't feel any need to really make a choice one way or the other. And I even feel less so as an adult.... My wife and kids predominantly attend the LDS church, but I'm so busy that I'm really not active in that community any more. I travel so much, and I find myself just choosing whatever service appeals to me that week. When I'm in Burbank, I attend a Catholic church. And I've recently noticed a Greek Orthodox church across the street, so I'll probably hit that too." Edited September 13, 2017 by Calm
Calm Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 "Despite its provocative handling of LDS faith, Dutcher insists "Falling" is, in effect, a Mormon movie insofar as its themes and imagery will be most meaningful to Latter-day Saints (never mind that, by default, they are embargoed from seeing an R-rated film). But then, doesn't that still make him a Mormon filmmaker? "At the beginning, I was proud to say, 'Yeah, I'm a Mormon filmmaker' because then, I was defining what a Mormon filmmaker was," Dutcher said. "It quickly got completely out of my control. Now, no one wants to call themselves a Mormon filmmaker because you're associating yourself with a genre that's fallen into disrepute. It's like having porn on your resume."" http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug/19/entertainment/et-mormon19/2
jkwilliams Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 6 hours ago, Calm said: "Despite its provocative handling of LDS faith, Dutcher insists "Falling" is, in effect, a Mormon movie insofar as its themes and imagery will be most meaningful to Latter-day Saints (never mind that, by default, they are embargoed from seeing an R-rated film). But then, doesn't that still make him a Mormon filmmaker? "At the beginning, I was proud to say, 'Yeah, I'm a Mormon filmmaker' because then, I was defining what a Mormon filmmaker was," Dutcher said. "It quickly got completely out of my control. Now, no one wants to call themselves a Mormon filmmaker because you're associating yourself with a genre that's fallen into disrepute. It's like having porn on your resume."" http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug/19/entertainment/et-mormon19/2 That doesn't sound as if being recognized or not recognized as a Mormon filmmaker was related to his leaving the church.
ALarson Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) 50 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: That doesn't sound as if being recognized or not recognized as a Mormon filmmaker was related to his leaving the church. No, I read those articles yesterday. They are interesting, but say nothing about why he left the church (from what I saw). He does address those reasons here though: http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=53940921&itype=CMSID Quote "God's Army" was an independent hit, taking in an estimated $2.6 million at the box office (according to the Internet Movie Database) and ushering in a wave of Mormon movies. Dutcher even made a cameo in one of those movies, the comedy "The Singles Ward." (He later asked the filmmakers to edit his appearance out of the DVD release.) His follow-up movie, "Brigham City" (2001), was a murder mystery/morality drama in which Dutcher played a sheriff who was also the town's LDS bishop. It had a bigger budget than "God's Army," and even a name actor in Wilford Brimley. But it wasn't as successful as "God's Army," earning just over $850,000. Dutcher pressed ahead, though, with plans to write and direct what he envisioned would be a Mormon epic: "The Prophet," a biography of LDS Church founder Joseph Smith. That's when his life changed. "The filmmaking process, up to that point, had kind of informed my spiritual life, and my spiritual life had informed my filmmaking," he said. "Then what I found was the filmmaking itself led me to an entirely new and unexpected place." In researching the life of Smith for his film, Dutcher said, "one day, I just simply asked myself the question, 'What if it simply isn't true?' " In a faith where adherents often begin their testimony with "I know this church is true," that question carries enormous weight. "My own brain, something from the deepest part of me, said, 'Of course it isn't true.' After that, the whole house of cards fell," Dutcher said. "In a very real sense, in the time span of one minute, I went from being a true believer to being a complete nonbeliever. It was actually quite terrifying." Edited September 13, 2017 by ALarson
Kenngo1969 Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 10 hours ago, Calm said: ... "At the beginning, I was proud to say, 'Yeah, I'm a Mormon filmmaker' because then, I was defining what a Mormon filmmaker was," Dutcher said. "It quickly got completely out of my control. Now, no one wants to call themselves a Mormon filmmaker because you're associating yourself with a genre that's fallen into disrepute. It's like having porn on your resume."" http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug/19/entertainment/et-mormon19/2 So, per Mr. Dutcher, it's worse to make a poor-quality movie even about worthwhile themes than it is to make a high-quality porn flick. Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.
jkwilliams Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 43 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: So, per Mr. Dutcher, it's worse to make a poor-quality movie even about worthwhile themes than it is to make a high-quality porn flick. Got it. Thanks for clearing that up. I think he's saying that being associated with the crap produced under the banner of "Mormon cinema" (Book of Mormon Movie, Part I, anyone?) is like being associated with the porn industry. Neither is a good thing to be associated with.
smac97 Posted September 13, 2017 Author Posted September 13, 2017 22 hours ago, stemelbow said: I guess. It almost sounds like Dutcher conned the con-man walking away with 5 million? I don't follow. As I understand it, Koerber put up $5M to finance Evil Angel. That move was made (though it apparently lost money). So how did Dutcher "con" Koerber? 22 hours ago, stemelbow said: or did he pay the guy back after the film was made? AFAICS, there was neither a con nor an ROI to Koerber. Financing movies is a risky business. Koerber lost his investment (unless Dutcher gets the film re-distributed and it makes a mint, though this seems like pie-in-the-sky thinking by Dutcher). 22 hours ago, stemelbow said: Anyway, I suppose if the guy is running a Ponzi scheme, getting rich, I doubt he cares much about a Mormon taboo of sex scenes and the like. But he does care about a movie about Joseph Smith? A movie that I think Koerber would want to put him (Joseph Smith) in a positive, or at least sympathetic, light? Why would he care about such a thing if "running a Ponzi scheme" and "getting rich" are enough to get him to disregard other salient aspects of Mormonism (like its taboos)? I dunno. It's armchair psychology anyway. We don't know what Koerber is thinking. To be frank, I shouldn't be speculating about such things, nor encouraging others to do so. Thanks, -Smac
jkwilliams Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 Just now, smac97 said: But he does care about a movie about Joseph Smith? A movie that I think Koerber would want to put him (Joseph Smith) in a positive, or at least sympathetic, light? Why would he care about such a thing if "running a Ponzi scheme" and "getting rich" are enough to get him to disregard other salient aspects of Mormonism (like its taboos)? Again, never underestimate the human capacity to rationalize. It's quite common for Mormons who are convicted of fraud to have tithed their ill-gotten gains. That doesn't make sense, either, but it happens. 1
smac97 Posted September 13, 2017 Author Posted September 13, 2017 6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Again, never underestimate the human capacity to rationalize. It's quite common for Mormons who are convicted of fraud to have tithed their ill-gotten gains. That doesn't make sense, either, but it happens. A very good point. -Smac 1
jkwilliams Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 Just now, smac97 said: A very good point. -Smac When I worked in the Ironton area of South Provo, I used to pass a billboard advertising Rick Koerber's radio show and financial program. He marketed himself as a sort of combination investment guru and Ezra-Taft-Benson-esque defender of faith and American values. Just out of curiosity, I checked it out. Seemed like an obvious scam to me, but then I tend to be very suspicious of those who promote their business practices by trumpeting their religious faith.
smac97 Posted September 13, 2017 Author Posted September 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: When I worked in the Ironton area of South Provo, I used to pass a billboard advertising Rick Koerber's radio show and financial program. He marketed himself as a sort of combination investment guru and Ezra-Taft-Benson-esque defender of faith and American values. Just out of curiosity, I checked it out. Seemed like an obvious scam to me, but then I tend to be very suspicious of those who promote their business practices by trumpeting their religious faith. I remember that billboard (I live in Provo). I don't remember there being a religious angle to it, though (on the billboard, anyway). But I find his "God is a capitalist" schtick to be rather yucky. By the way, Koerber's guilt is not a foregoing conclusion. There have been many, many mistakes and misconduct by the prosecutors that precipitated the tossing of the first case against him in 2014. Thanks, -Smac
jkwilliams Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, smac97 said: I remember that billboard (I live in Provo). I don't remember there being a religious angle to it, though (on the billboard, anyway). But I find his "God is a capitalist" schtick to be rather yucky. By the way, Koerber's guilt is not a foregoing conclusion. There have been many, many mistakes and misconduct by the prosecutors that precipitated the tossing of the first case against him in 2014. Thanks, -Smac I'm not assuming guilt, just saying that, when I listened to his show, it screamed "scam" to me.
Kenngo1969 Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 10 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: When I worked in the Ironton area of South Provo, I used to pass a billboard advertising Rick Koerber's radio show and financial program. He marketed himself as a sort of combination investment guru and Ezra-Taft-Benson-esque defender of faith and American values. Just out of curiosity, I checked it out. Seemed like an obvious scam to me, but then I tend to be very suspicious of those who promote their business practices by trumpeting their religious faith. I can't remember which General Authority said it, but one once said (paraphrasing), "If someone tells you to pray about an investment, make sure you have your hand on your wallet while your eyes are closed." Honestly, I have more respect for street thugs than I do for so called "white-collar" criminals who engage in affinity fraud. I don't have to guess about the intentions or about the true colors of the former, while the latter carefully craft a facade to hide those attributes.
smac97 Posted September 13, 2017 Author Posted September 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I'm not assuming guilt, just saying that, when I listened to his show, it screamed "scam" to me. Most investment gurus do that to me. Thanks, -Smac 1
jkwilliams Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 Just now, Kenngo1969 said: I can't remember which General Authority said it, but one once said (paraphrasing), "If someone tells you to pray about an investment, make sure you have your hand on your wallet while your eyes are closed." Honestly, I have more respect for street thugs than I do for so called "white-collar" criminals who engage in affinity fraud. I don't have to guess about the intentions or about the true colors of the former, while the latter carefully craft a facade to hide those attributes. My uncle was taken in by an investment scheme fronted by a General Authority back in the Seventies. They wouldn't "allow" you to invest if you didn't have a current temple recommend.
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