california boy Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 4 hours ago, Glenn101 said: Not really. But I do not assume something is untrue because I do not like how the facts have come out or how they have been portrayed. God will not do it. It will be man's actions or inactions that keep families together or rip them apart. You would have to ask God. He says that baptism is essential for forgiveness of sins and to be able to enter the Kingdom of God. Just how that ordinance effects that we have not been told. It may just be an act of obedience, or there may be more that we are not aware of or even capable of comprehending right now. As for the sealings, God bestowed the sealing power on Peter according to the Biblical scriptures. That sealing power was lost with the death of the apostles (else wise we should all be Catholic, but they do not believe in that). That power was restored in 1836. Without that no families would be together, according to the scriptures. That is great. I agree. When a family has been sealed together by one holding the authority, as directed by one holding the keys. But yet there is no scriptural condemnation for marrying young girls. That is presentism. There is scriptural evidence of prophets lying in the past to protect their own lives. (Abraham ans Isaac come to mind.) There is no scriptural evidence that God condemned them for it. And actually, Joseph Smith did not marry the wife of any other man. That is a disingenuous assertion. I get the feeling that I do not have all of the facts. Joseph Smith was put between a rock and a hard place. Joseph claimed that he procrastinated on following the commandment to take plural wives until he was threatened by and angel with a drawn sword. We do not know when Emma first learned of the commandment. We do know that several of the women who were married to Joseph said that she knew and consented, at least at one point. Whatever the case, the judgement is God's because He knows all of the facts and it is His right and duty to judge. Anyone who judges without all of the facts is in danger of coming to a wrong conclusion. We have a lot of people that have been found to be wrongly convicted from just such problems. That is something I agree with. That is why I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that he was the human instrument that God used in the restoration of the Gospel. If you feel you have received a revelation from the Holy Ghost denying this, I will not argue the point with you. I will only note that we have received contradictory revelations supposedly from the same source. God will be the judge of that also. There is nothing in the Bible that remotely talks about temple ordinances. You have to take one word to Peter and cook up a whole bag of popcorn to make that your reference. Yet Mormon put temple sealings at the very center of their entire plan of salvation. Humm. Not feeling it. When prophets lied in the Bible, I don't believe it was right either. Just because something is in the Bible doesn't maki it right. Murdering someone who is already so drunk that you can take all his armor off just to get some records also sounds a little fishy. We know for a fact that there was not just one copy of the Old Testament. Get another copy. When did the 10 commandments become 10 suggestions? I have heard the angel flaming sword story. Tell me, if it was so important that Joseph live this commandment without deceit, why not send an angel with a flaming sword to Emma. Getting her on board for marrying other mens wives and their housekeeper would have been a good idea don't you think. Rock and hard place no longer an issue. Joseph Smith could have lived the commandment without deceit and dishonesty.
california boy Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: And what would lead you to that opinion? I have little faith in the "loving God wouldn't do that" argument. It is entirely possible that God will "rip" families apart in the next life if they don't meet the laws needed for that blessing. What reason do we have for thinking otherwise? I get a "strong feeling" that Joseph was approved of by the Lord and followed his directions in all things. Therefore, if we see some of his actions as wrong, the flaw is in our understanding and perception of what happened. Perspective matters, and ours is very, very limited and our biases are hard to bypass. It must be great being a prophet. You can pretty much get away with anything you want. People will still believe everything you do is of God. You, of course are perfectly entitled to your continued faith in everything Joseph Smith did was from God. I am just a bit more skeptical about the long list of people who clalm to be prophets and the first thing they start doing is marrying 14 year olds. Joseph Smith was not the first, nor was he the last. I have to admit, marrying other men's wives seem to be original. That took guts.
Calm Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 "I have heard the angel flaming sword story. Tell me, if it was so important that Joseph live this commandment without deceit, why not send an angel with a flaming sword to Emma. Getting her on board for marrying other mens wives and their housekeeper would have been a good idea don't you think." Perhaps it wouldn't have worked for her and the Lord was being kind to not put her under that condemnation. If her chances to witness that Joseph was a prophet weren't enough for her, her own husband who she knew best in the world, why would an angel be much different?
JLHPROF Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 26 minutes ago, Calm said: Perhaps it wouldn't have worked for her and the Lord was being kind to not put her under that condemnation. If her chances to witness that Joseph was a prophet weren't enough for her, her own husband who she knew best in the world, why would an angel be much different? 1 hour ago, california boy said: I have heard the angel flaming sword story. Tell me, if it was so important that Joseph live this commandment without deceit, why not send an angel with a flaming sword to Emma. Getting her on board for marrying other mens wives and their housekeeper would have been a good idea don't you think. Rock and hard place no longer an issue. Joseph Smith could have lived the commandment without deceit and dishonesty. AKA - I Nephi 3:29 And it came to pass as they smote us with a rod, behold, an angel of the Lord came and stood before them, and he spake unto them, saying: Why do ye smite your younger brother with a rod? Know ye not that the Lord hath chosen him to be a ruler over you, and this because of your iniquities? Behold ye shall go up to Jerusalem again, and the Lord will deliver Laban into your hands. 30 And after the angel had spoken unto us, he departed. 31 And after the angel had departed, Laman and Lemuel again began to murmur, saying: How is it possible that the Lord will deliver Laban into our hands? Behold, he is a mighty man, and he can command fifty, yea, even he can slay fifty; then why not us? And of course there is another explanation, but it is one that would probably get me booted off the board, so I will keep it to myself.
JLHPROF Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 1 hour ago, california boy said: There is nothing in the Bible that remotely talks about temple ordinances. Well, now that's not even close to true. Quote You have to take one word to Peter and cook up a whole bag of popcorn to make that your reference. Yet Mormon put temple sealings at the very center of their entire plan of salvation. Humm. Not feeling it. The Bible is full of allusion to temple ordinances, not just one word to Peter. But they are scattered and never spelled out in one ordinance (not surprising since the entire endowment was originally upwards of 4 hours). But the endowment is scattered all through the Bible. 52 minutes ago, california boy said: It must be great being a prophet. You can pretty much get away with anything you want. People will still believe everything you do is of God. I think it would be better to say that perspectives change once you have directly met God. Unless we share that perspective, how can we truly say that something that came from God is wrong?
Glenn101 Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, california boy said: Murdering someone who is already so drunk that you can take all his armor off just to get some records also sounds a little fishy. We know for a fact that there was not just one copy of the Old Testament. 4 hours ago, california boy said: There is nothing in the Bible that remotely talks about temple ordinances. You have to take one word to Peter and cook up a whole bag of popcorn to make that your reference. Yet Mormon put temple sealings at the very center of their entire plan of salvation. Humm. Not feeling it. The Doctrine and Covenants does not say where any of the ordinances take place. But there is a reference in the Bible that talks about an ordinance that is performed in the temple in our day. i.e baptism for the dead. That "one word" to Peter did not define or give any limits to what he could seal. But Latter-day revelation has given us that knowledge. Your own feeling/belief that families will be together forever, no matter what has no scriptural basis or support. You may not accept the revelations, but I do. That is another thing that all of us will know for sure one day in another dispensation. I much prefer the surety of my experience with the Holy Ghost to your " Humm. Not feeling it." 4 hours ago, california boy said: When prophets lied in the Bible, I don't believe it was right either. Just because something is in the Bible doesn't maki it right. I did not say that is was right. I only pointed out that some of the prophets in the Old Testament had lied to preserve their own lives, that those actions received no condemnation from God, and that they remained prophets up to their deaths. 4 hours ago, california boy said: Murdering someone who is already so drunk that you can take all his armor off just to get some records also sounds a little fishy. We know for a fact that there was not just one copy of the Old Testament. Get another copy. When did the 10 commandments become 10 suggestions? There never was a monolithic "copy of the Old Testament." All of the different "books" were on individual scrolls. I do not know what another copy of the Old Testament would do, what it would change. All of the extant texts that we have carry the same stories, with some variations. As to your last, are you saying that Jesus/Jehovah was wrong to bring on the flood, or to kill Uzzah for steadying the ark, or to allow King David to remain King after he had acted to have Uriah the Hittite murdered? And one final thought that I had to add, remember when the Israelites were preparing to leave Egypt they were commanded by the Lord to "borrow" all kinds of jewels, silver, and gold from their Egyptian neighbors, to "spoil the Egyptians." This was with full knowledge that there was no intention of ever returning to Egypt and no intention of ever returning those things that were borrowed. This was after the Lord had commanded Moses to tell Pharaoh "The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God," when there was no intention of ever returning to Egypt. By the standards you are advocating that would make God not worthy to be God. Edited June 5, 2017 by Glenn101 Always have another thought to further muddy the waters.
california boy Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 9 hours ago, Glenn101 said: The Doctrine and Covenants does not say where any of the ordinances take place. But there is a reference in the Bible that talks about an ordinance that is performed in the temple in our day. i.e baptism for the dead. That "one word" to Peter did not define or give any limits to what he could seal. But Latter-day revelation has given us that knowledge. Your own feeling/belief that families will be together forever, no matter what has no scriptural basis or support. You may not accept the revelations, but I do. That is another thing that all of us will know for sure one day in another dispensation. I much prefer the surety of my experience with the Holy Ghost to your " Humm. Not feeling it." I did not say that is was right. I only pointed out that some of the prophets in the Old Testament had lied to preserve their own lives, that those actions received no condemnation from God, and that they remained prophets up to their deaths. There never was a monolithic "copy of the Old Testament." All of the different "books" were on individual scrolls. I do not know what another copy of the Old Testament would do, what it would change. All of the extant texts that we have carry the same stories, with some variations. As to your last, are you saying that Jesus/Jehovah was wrong to bring on the flood, or to kill Uzzah for steadying the ark, or to allow King David to remain King after he had acted to have Uriah the Hittite murdered? And one final thought that I had to add, remember when the Israelites were preparing to leave Egypt they were commanded by the Lord to "borrow" all kinds of jewels, silver, and gold from their Egyptian neighbors, to "spoil the Egyptians." This was with full knowledge that there was no intention of ever returning to Egypt and no intention of ever returning those things that were borrowed. This was after the Lord had commanded Moses to tell Pharaoh "The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God," when there was no intention of ever returning to Egypt. By the standards you are advocating that would make God not worthy to be God. I think I was pretty clear in what I believe. I believe that the Holy Ghost can guide us to truth where ever it is. I believe the Holy Ghost can help us decern what is not true. I believe that there is a LOT in the Bible written by man that never came from God. In fact, I believe that there is a lot in the Bible that directly goes against what God has given us. You have pointed out several examples. I am not alone. There is not a single religion that doesn't think that everything contained in the Bible is from God. Every religion picks and chooses what they want to believe and then uses the Bible to back up those beliefs. Since anyone can basically support any position by using some Bible scripture, you have an entire world full of what people believe is the word of God, yet none can agree what that word is. Mormons have decided that they are right about everything because they claim that their leader speaks for God unless of course he is fallable and is speaking for himself. I have no problem with you having that belief. But you can not say what I feel the Holy Ghost has told me is true or not true. That comes from personal revelation.
Glenn101 Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 6 hours ago, california boy said: But you can not say what I feel the Holy Ghost has told me is true or not true. That comes from personal revelation. I think that I have already agreed with that in another post. What I have noted is that there are some areas, actually I would say many areas where whatever spirit of revelation that you receive your information from and whatever spirit of revelation I receive my information from have produced conflicting revelations. I would say that one of us has received revelations that are not of the Holy Ghost. At some point in time, or eternity, the truth will be made plainly manifest to all of us. It seems that will be the only time you and I will agree. Thanks for an interesting and agreeable discussion, although we do not agree. Glenn 1
Teancum Posted June 12, 2017 Posted June 12, 2017 On 5/31/2017 at 11:05 PM, ksfisher said: Many who attend are not troubled because they understand that most troubling issues really have no bearing on their core testimonies. Your implication that they are not troubled out of ignorance is not true in all cases. Not in all cases but in many. Many I have talked to don't know about the more problematic issues of the LDS foundational truth claims and some don't want to know and they have said as much. On the other hand I know some who know all the issues and are quite fine. I don't get it but that is not for me to decide who and who should not be troubled by things that are at least for me problematic.
Meerkat Posted June 13, 2017 Posted June 13, 2017 On 5/26/2017 at 1:29 PM, clarkgoble said: Some of those I don't think I agree with. (Transoceanic vessels were around at Nephi's time -- the polynesians aren't recent; BoA vignettes being "wrong" presupposes their function) The rest I confess I knew from a rather young age. I have also been aware of these things for decades. It has all been available to those want to research such things. Prophets started out as ordinary people. With one notable exception, mortals are all Heavenly Father has had to work with. Joseph Smith was chastised for pride, disobedience, probably for many mistakes that he made. What prophet in any of the scriptures was perfect? King David who slew Goliath? Wait, no he pursued Bathsheba and fell from his exaltation. The prophet Noah became drunk, naked and cursed his son Ham. The prophet King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines, "and his wives turned away his heart." There were conflicts between the Apostle Paul and the Apostle Peter, who said Paul was hard to be understood. There were doctrinal differences between James and Paul regarding faith and works. I lean toward James teaching. So there is plenty of evidence that God has chosen weak mortals, prone to error, to lead His Church. The Apostle Paul said " 9" And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness . Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities , in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions , in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak , then am I strong." I'm thankful for the new openness. It adds credibility, and gives the Church the power of character and honesty. As for me, I'm more interested in those virtuous, lovely and praisworthy things that can strengthen my faith during these times that we live in. Things like reading the Book of Mormon, as our prophet encouraged us to do. Things like preparing for the Milenium by seeking out my kindred dead. There are so many things we can do. I leave the controversial to others, unless I am asked. God will work it all out in due time. The question is, what are we going to do now? Are we going to doubt what we know, or are we going to doubt our doubts? Those are probably the ultimate questions for this day and age. That's my two cents. 1
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