People leave the church because of a "trust gap"

[William Jones]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

The pictures were not shown on any of the reports I saw.  They could easily have been taken by a member as there were many milling around watching the flames.  How many would be speculation as there were likely neighborhood people as well, but they had some talk in the interviews I saw.  No one referenced the picture story that I recall.

It would appear you are making a decision about how they interacted with the media without even looking at the interaction with the media.

More laziness in research.  Not impressed.

CFR for any actual evidence, not speculation based on something that has nothing to do with the media as far as there is evidence.

CFR on your "faithful" speculation as to motives as well. We are both in need of more evidence as to the motives of this rather small incident. Putting the picture of Jesus in the fire truck when the media is present is plenty to surmise that PR was part of the motive. Obviously the commander let it be known or caused it to be known to the small gathering of onlookers and media. Or do you think he hid his light under a bushell?

Is every disagreement "anti-mormon" in your opinion? Is there room for contrary speculation? Isn't church cheerleading a cause of the trust-gap? I know you want to defend at all costs, but you must also allow yourself to question the narrative from time to time. The leaders and everyone else are human, fallible, and prone to error.

[Tacenda]

18 minutes ago, William Jones said:

CFR on your "faithful" speculation as to motives as well. We are both in need of more evidence as to the motives of this rather small incident. Putting the picture of Jesus in the fire truck when the media is present is plenty to surmise that PR was part of the motive. Obviously the commander let it be known or caused it to be known to the small gathering of onlookers and media. Or do you think he hid his light under a bushell?

Is every disagreement "anti-mormon" in your opinion? Is there room for contrary speculation? Isn't church cheerleading a cause of the trust-gap? I know you want to defend at all costs, but you must also allow yourself to question the narrative from time to time. The leaders and everyone else are human, fallible, and prone to error.

I believe this of some LDS, maybe more than some, but if you discuss on here longer you'll see that Calm is more after the truth even if it doesn't bode well on the church.

[William Jones]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I believe this of some LDS, maybe more than some, but if you discuss on here longer you'll see that Calm is more after the truth even if it doesn't bode well on the church.

Great. That's all anyone can hope for.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, William Jones said:

CFR on your "faithful" speculation as to motives as well. We are both in need of more evidence as to the motives of this rather small incident. Putting the picture of Jesus in the fire truck when the media is present is plenty to surmise that PR was part of the motive. Obviously the commander let it be known or caused it to be known to the small gathering of onlookers and media. Or do you think he hid his light under a bushell?

Is every disagreement "anti-mormon" in your opinion? Is there room for contrary speculation? Isn't church cheerleading a cause of the trust-gap? I know you want to defend at all costs, but you must also allow yourself to question the narrative from time to time. The leaders and everyone else are human, fallible, and prone to error.

Again CFR that any media was even aware of these actions or any action was taken by the fire chief to alert them to it. 

There is no indication he was the one to place the picture in one of the trucks.  There were almost 200 firefighters there who could have done that.

I don't Church cheerlead.  My criticism of your comments have nothing to do with the Church.

I am defending the Fire Deputy Chief from undocumented criticism.  I am basing my comments on what was said without adding to it as well as action demonstrated.

The fire chief did not ask a local member standing by the fire in the presence of news media what he should save.  He called up a personal friend...which implies an expectation of privacy.

There is no reason to add details of speculation of motivation instead of taking it at face value.  It adds no actual information to the discussion.  And it is irritating when it comes from someone who can't be bothered to do research for himself, but still feels free to speculate.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Calm

[Rain]

32 minutes ago, William Jones said:

CFR on your "faithful" speculation as to motives as well. We are both in need of more evidence as to the motives of this rather small incident. Putting the picture of Jesus in the fire truck when the media is present is plenty to surmise that PR was part of the motive. Obviously the commander let it be known or caused it to be known to the small gathering of onlookers and media. Or do you think he hid his light under a bushell?

Is every disagreement "anti-mormon" in your opinion? Is there room for contrary speculation? Isn't church cheerleading a cause of the trust-gap? I know you want to defend at all costs, but you must also allow yourself to question the narrative from time to time. The leaders and everyone else are human, fallible, and prone to error.

We get used to disagreements about our policies, doctrine, leaders etc. That’s old hat. It is just so odd to me that we feel we need to defend the postitive assumption of a good motivation of a non member fire commander. It is just bizarre to me. 

And given the topic and discussion of this thread about motivations, it is ironic. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

One picture shows the Bishop carrying art out but I think it's the morning after the fire (it was a Spanish speaking ward or branch I think).  I'll try to find it again (may have just been a member too, but I think it stated a Bishop).  There were firemen with him so it's confusing.

Here's one link but there was another one where he was lining pictures up outside the church (stating the Bishop):

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/on-wednesday-morning-members-visit-church-of-jesus-christ-news-photo/479944738?esource=SEO_GIS_CDN_Redirect#on-wednesday-morning-members-visit-church-of-jesus-christ-of-saints-picture-id479944738

They mention that they let people in afterwards with escort to retrieve valuables, papers, etc.

That appears to be taken by the LATimes photographer.

PS:  I am not looking for evidence media was aware valuables were saved including pictures, that is there in a number of the reports...but rather the focus on saving pictures of Christ.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

I think this is the church that burned:

http://www.foxla.com/news/2085834-story

This is all it mentions about the art:

"A few paintings were rescued from the fire, members saying its a sign God is with them."

I searched a bit for more stories on it (Glassell Park Mormon church building fire) and didn't see any of those pictures used as PR, etc.  I didn't do an extensive search though.

Thanks.  I can't remember if that is one I read, the 6 or so are blurring together by now, it is probably the most detailed of all I have seen so good to have it put up.

[William Jones]

58 minutes ago, Calm said:

Again CFR that any media was even aware of these actions or any action was taken by the fire chief to alert them to it. 

There is no indication he was the one to place the picture in one of the trucks.  There were almost 200 firefighters there who could have done that.

I don't Church cheerlead.  My criticism of your comments have nothing to do with the Church.

I am defending the Fire Deputy Chief from undocumented criticism.  I am basing my comments on what was said without adding to it as well as action demonstrated.

The fire chief did not ask a local member standing by the fire in the presence of news media what he should save.  He called up a personal friend...which implies an expectation of privacy.

There is no reason to add details of speculation of motivation instead of taking it at face value.  It adds no actual information to the discussion.  And it is irritating when it comes from someone who can't be bothered to do research for himself, but still feels free to speculate.

Here again, you don't know that the media wasn't alerted to the Jesus picture in the fire truck and passed on reporting it because it only plays to a certain type of people that think it makes one bit of difference. 

But of course we must blindly accept everything our leaders say at conference at "face value" because they never let their desire to believe get in the way of reality. Or they are above perpetuating an obvious religious exaggeration to score conference points. Also, of course the commander and the fire fighters would never play on religious feeling to gain points with the religious community, either. That never happens.

[Calm]

So you are claiming a guy who is aware of PR and who as Deputy Chief probably has had countless times to interact with media was too clueless about PR to make sure it was a PR attention grabbing move?

Do you believe someone lied about it being a private call to a friend?

You apparently continue to speculate based on your own assumptions of how people act without evidence.

No attempt to fill the CFR.  

You have  not even apparently watched any of the reports themselves since you have not referenced them or answered my question on watching them, but are solely addressing the conference talk as if that is the only relevant documentation of the Fire Deputy Chief's behaviour.

Not impressed by your analysis skills.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Calm

[William Jones]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

So you are claiming a guy who is aware of PR and who as Deputy Chief probably has had countless times to interact with media was too clueless about PR to make sure it was a PR attention grabbing move?

Do you believe someone lied about it being a private call to a friend?

You apparently continue to speculate based on your own assumptions of how people act without evidence.

No attempt to fill the CFR.  

You have  not even apparently watched any of the reports themselves since you have not referenced them or answered my question on watching them, but are solely addressing the conference talk as if that is the only relevant documentation of the Fire Deputy Chief's behaviour.

Not impressed by your analysis skills.

You conveniently didn't alert me to your snide response. Was it planned? Anyway, I have seen and read the news stories and they don't talk about any of the conference talk details. So maybe the conference talk details didn't happen? CFR on the conference talk details. My guess is that if you did a little work, you would find that the religious effect is greatly diminished. Not impressed with your emotional thinking (see, I can resort to this level like you can when challenged. However, I would prefer to take the high road, if you would join me).

Anyway, so I think the question becomes do we trust the conference talk or not since the news reports vaguely talk about going in to secure papers, etc. I think, given human nature and how the commander wanted to do something more and "FELT" he needed to, even though his mormon friend told him it wasn't necessary, we can assume that the commander's motivation was to show the religious crowd that he was doing his job, right? Isn't that public relations? Also, I still think the media knew of the story and passed on it because they mention the fire fighters going back in to retrieve items but stop short of telling the religiously biased part of the story. Maybe the media is a little wiser than the "dare to believe 70 cheerleader"?

 

[Calm]

"You conveniently didn't alert me to your snide response."

What are you talking about?

Good for you for researching more.  Too bad you then just warp the results as the media being too wise to get sucked in by PR moves...which seems strange to me because I saw two separate feel good, Religious obvious reports.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2015/07/12/congregants-keep-the-faith-after-losing-glassell-park-church-to-fire/

The other one was where they were interviewing members, including a missionary.  I think I linked that yesterday.

You appear to go to deception or manipulation automatically.  At least you are consistent.

The high road is accusing others of deception and ulterior motives rather than just allowing that someone did something because they cared, end of story?

Wont be continuing the conversation.

 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Calm

[Gray]

Came here to see what people were saying about the trust gap. Pages and pages of arguing about fire fighters.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Gray

[William Jones]

On 4/23/2017 at 3:11 PM, Calm said:

"You conveniently didn't alert me to your snide response."

What are you talking about?

Good for you for researching more.  Too bad you then just warp the results as the media being too wise to get sucked in by PR moves...which seems strange to me because I saw too separate feel good, Religious obvious reports.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2015/07/12/congregants-keep-the-faith-after-losing-glassell-park-church-to-fire/

The other one was where they were interviewing members, including a missionary.  I think I linked that yesterday.

You appear to go to deception or manipulation automatically.  At least you are consistent.

The high road is accusing others of deception and ulterior motives rather than just allowing that someone did something because they cared, end of story?

Wont be continuing the conversation.

 

Ok. Thanks for playing I guess.

That is going to be your tune if you continue to be aggressive and rude to Mormon posters. If you can't be civil this is not a good board for you. Consider this your first and last warning. 

[Kenngo1969]

Elder Bragg has roots in Southern California.  I wonder if he is the battalion commander's "LDS friend"?

[Tacenda]

Saw this while reading about the fire, it was to the side. The plot thickens? http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-compton-fire-chief-20150707-story.html

I saw it right below the picture on this link. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-freeway-fire-20150707-story.html

Edited April 24, 2017 by Tacenda

[Rain]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Saw this while reading about the fire, it was to the side. The plot thickens? http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-compton-fire-chief-20150707-story.html

I saw it right below the picture on this link. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-freeway-fire-20150707-story.html

Why would the plot thicken with that story?  What bearing does it have in this one? 

[Tacenda]

14 minutes ago, Rain said:

Why would the plot thicken with that story?  What bearing does it have in this one? 

I thought it was the fire chief, do we have the name of the fire chief, this one in the story has the last name of Johnson that was disciplined, wondering if it was the same guy. Was there a couple of them? Or is it totally unrelated?

[Rain]

I don't know about the names, but even if it is the same guy then what does it matter?

ETA - too tired to answer this. Should have waited till morning to check on names etc. Sorry about that. Still believe it wouldn't matter if the same guy.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Rain

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I thought it was the fire chief, do we have the name of the fire chief, this one in the story has the last name of Johnson that was disciplined, wondering if it was the same guy. Was there a couple of them? Or is it totally unrelated?

Not the same guy.  His name was Phillip or something close.  I think I mentioned it in aprevious post.  At the time of the fire he was battalion chief and is now a deputy chief.  Compton is 20-25 miles from Glassell Park, they may not be in the same fire districts.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Calm

[Mormons Talk]

I do think that people leave because of loss of trust in the leaders. I also think that people place too much trust in their leaders, and that it's misdirected. We should be focused more on Christ as a church and as individuals.

[Kenngo1969]

If something needs thickening, I've found that equal parts of cornstarch and water added to what one is trying to thicken usually works fairly well.  "The plot thickens" only for rabid conspiracy theorists who are incapable of separating one story from another, of getting their facts straight, are looking for an excuse to excoriate first responders (and/or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) ... and when one is looking to do that, one club works as well as any other ... and so on.  Separate agencies: http://www.comptoncity.org/depts/fire/.

The way these things usually work is that if, for reasons of economics, economies of scale, convenience, and so on, a municipality wishes to contract with the county in which it sits for police, fire, and/or for other emergency services, it may do so. However, if it wishes to maintain local control by establishing its own agencies, it may do that, instead.  Apparently, Compton does not contract with Los Angeles County for fire services; rather, it has its own agency.  In any event, the Glassell Park fire occurred in July of 2015, so even if we were talking about the same agency, that would be an awfully long timeline for connecting two allegedly-related events.

You're free to thicken your plots elsewhere, thankyouverymuch fer playin'!

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

If something needs thickening, I've found that equal parts of cornstarch and water added to what one is trying to thicken usually works fairly well.  "The plot thickens" only for rabid conspiracy theorists who are incapable of separating one story from another, of getting their facts straight, are looking for an excuse to excoriate first responders (and/or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) ... and when one is looking to do that, one club works as well as any other ... and so on.  Separate agencies: http://www.comptoncity.org/depts/fire/.

The way these things usually work is that if, for reasons of economics, economies of scale, convenience, and so on, a municipality wishes to contract with the county in which it sits for police, fire, and/or for other emergency services, it may do so. However, if it wishes to maintain local control by establishing its own agencies, it may do that, instead.  Apparently, Compton does not contract with Los Angeles County for fire services; rather, it has its own agency.  In any event, the Glassell Park fire occurred in July of 2015, so even if we were talking about the same agency, that would be an awfully long timeline for connecting two allegedly-related events.

You're free to thicken your plots elsewhere, thankyouverymuch fer playin'!

I'm done.

BTW, I have nothing against firefighters, they are heros. This Compton fire chief was cited for not protecting the firemen and others by not supplying the fire trucks with the proper equipment and having under trained firemen.

But as always, I jump to some conclusions, for some reason I thought at first that it was the same department.

A rabid conspiracy theorist? I don't think I'm that. You say I criticized the church too in my comment? How did I do that?

Also, I'm terrible at using idioms, but "the plot thickens" means when something becomes more complicated. In my mind that's what it did. When I saw the article linked. 

I truly regret bringing it up now, everything I say on this board is blown up and how I'm such a terrible person. It's getting difficult to get on this board more and more without feeling like the child that gets caught in the cookie jar. Wow, or I'm truly losing it. 

Back to the trust issue, I don't trust a lot of establishments, even our government. They've certainly disappointed me time and time again. 

Maybe I am a conspiracy theorist, but rabid?

The bold: this happened at nearly the same time. In the article it happened in July of 2015. It mentions the date 2007 here: "Smith, 65, served as Compton's fire chief for four years, leaving the office in 2007, he said. In an interview, he vowed to restore the city's certifications and get defibrillators back on fire apparatus." ETA: Smith replaced Johnson, 2007 is when Smith served. 

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Tacenda

[rockpond]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm done.

BTW, I have nothing against firefighters, they are heros. This Compton fire chief was cited for not protecting the firemen and others by not supplying the fire trucks with the proper equipment and having under trained firemen.

But as always, I jump to some conclusions, for some reason I thought at first that it was the same department.

A rabid conspiracy theorist? I don't think I'm that. You say I criticized the church too in my comment? How did I do that?

Also, I'm terrible at using idioms, but "the plot thickens" means when something becomes more complicated. In my mind that's what it did. When I saw the article linked. 

I truly regret bringing it up now, everything I say on this board is blown up and how I'm such a terrible person. It's getting difficult to get on this board more and more without feeling like the child that gets caught in the cookie jar. Wow, or I'm truly losing it. 

Back to the trust issue, I don't trust a lot of establishments, even our government. They've certainly disappointed me time and time again. 

Maybe I am a conspiracy theorist, but rabid?

The bold: this happened at nearly the same time. In the article it happened in July of 2015. It mentions the date 2007 here: "Smith, 65, served as Compton's fire chief for four years, leaving the office in 2007, he said. In an interview, he vowed to restore the city's certifications and get defibrillators back on fire apparatus."

 

Tacenda -- You aren't a "rabid" anything.  I'm sorry for the way you've been treated on this thread.

[JulieM]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

You're free to thicken your plots elsewhere, thankyouverymuch fer playin'!

From what I've seen, Tacenda has always treated you with kindness even when she disagrees with you.  Why would you treat her like this?

I'm not sure what's going on around here lately, but how Tacenda and Jeanne have been attacked here for having a different view of things has been pretty horrible, IMO.   And you just jump on the band wagon?

Is there a purging attempt going on here from a couple or more who want to rid this board of some members?  That's how it seems to me and I don't understand ever the need to treat others with such criticism and unkindness as I've seen here  on this thread.

 

[MiserereNobis]

I think it is time for love and unity -- the hostility between posters over a story about a firefighter is truly disheartening.  The appearance is that people are wanting to fight for the sake of fighting and not for what the actual subject is.  Perhaps the arguing is over something deeper and the firefighter story is just the "proxy war," so to speak?

"Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are." John 17:11

+PAX+