Guidelines Responses to Common Questions- Leak

[CV75]

59 minutes ago, cinepro said:

What do you mean "you"?  You're pretending like this is something random that I cooked up, or HappyJackWagon is "overplaying."

What you're actually saying is:

"[Apostle John A. Widtsoe] and [Brigham Young] and [Joseph Fielding Smith, early Church members in Missouri, and BYU Professors of Church History as published in official Church Publications] and [Apostle Alvin R. Dyer in General Conference] were all "overplaying" earlier prophets' accounts of what they heard or understood Joseph to say, but I know better."

This isn't a study in how LDS members "overplay" certain teachings.  It's a study in how the Church and certain members deal with embarrassing teachings from the past that were widely (but not frequently) taught by Apostles in books, Church publications and General Conference.  If your best strategy to deal with these teachings is to try and blame the members whose only mistake was to believe what they were being taught by the men they considered Prophets, Seers and Revelators, then it only shows the sad state of modern LDS apologetics and public relations.

Happy used the term “overplay” so those comments are primarily for him. As far as your post goes, you used the term “belabor” which is close, and I lumped the two notions together.

I responded to your post about Eden without a reply in earlier in the thread Posted March 22 , and now you re-post more of the same. I do not see that you are cooking anything up, just that you are not current at the expense of transferring embarrassment to others (so in that sense there is some “cooking up”). You do not seem to attending to the more current scholarship, reasons for the more current take on the subject, or reasons for the difference, sticking with a strategy of posting more of the same older references.

I think these understandings and beliefs were harmless, and in context, understandable. But if we have better information today (and actually, all along considering the D&C, and then at least since the 1992 publications--so some have known better for a long time!), let’s use it and not accuse the Brethren of waffling when they do.

Edited March 28, 2017 by CV75

[HappyJackWagon]

17 hours ago, CV75 said:

Happy used the term “overplay” so those comments are primarily for him. As far as your post goes, you used the term “belabor” which is close, and I lumped the two notions together.

I responded to your post about Eden without a reply in earlier in the thread Posted March 22 , and now you re-post more of the same. I do not see that you are cooking anything up, just that you are not current at the expense of transferring embarrassment to others (so in that sense there is some “cooking up”). You do not seem to attending to the more current scholarship, reasons for the more current take on the subject, or reasons for the difference, sticking with a strategy of posting more of the same older references.

I think these understandings and beliefs were harmless, and in context, understandable. But if we have better information today (and actually, all along considering the D&C, and then at least since the 1992 publications--so some have known better for a long time!), let’s use it and not accuse the Brethren of waffling when they do.

What is the "better source" of information today? Prophets and apostles from earlier days specifically stated it was a revealed truth that the garden was in Jackson County. Do we have any kind of similar revelation changing that or correcting the misstated claim? Or are modern apostles and prophets making assumptions? What is the source of their claim that the past prophets and apostles were in error? 

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

What is the "better source" of information today? Prophets and apostles from earlier days specifically stated it was a revealed truth that the garden was in Jackson County. Do we have any kind of similar revelation changing that or correcting the misstated claim? 

Was the last Prophet, Ezra Taft Benson to state that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, do you know?

I'd like to know too if other Prophets have corrected him or clarified if they believe he was wrong.

Edited March 29, 2017 by JulieM

[HappyJackWagon]

36 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Was the last Prophet, Ezra Taft Benson to state that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, do you know?

Have others corrected him or clarified if they believe he was wrong? 

Great question. I didn't find anything from Benson that stated the garden was in Jackson County, only America.

Maybe there is a more recent quote but this one from Joseph Fielding Smith is fairly current. He was the 10th prophet of the church and died in 1972 though the book where this is quoted is from 1954.

Quote

Joseph Fielding Smith- “In accord with the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, we teach that the Garden of Eden was on the American continent located where the city of Zion, or the New Jerusalem will be built. When Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden, they eventually dwelt at a place called Adam-ondi-Ahman, situated in what is now Daviess County, Missouri” (Doctrines of Salvation 3:74).

The location of the city of Zion or the New Jerusalem is Jackson County, Independence Missouri.

I'm not aware of any more recent prophet denouncing this teaching or teaching something different. I'd love to see some more recent quotes.

When Alvin R Dyer was in the First Presidency, he gave a conference report (1968) where he said this...

Quote

In the course of time from the creation, in the days of Peleg (Gen. 10:16 (JST)), or about the year 2200 B.C., Just prior to the confusion of the languages, the single continent of land that had continued from creation was divided to produce the hemispheres as we now know them. But notwithstanding this, the geographic location of the Garden of Eden was made known to the Prophet Joseph Smith by revelation as here in the land of America, in Jackson County, Missouri, with Independence as the center place.

http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1658

 

Edited March 29, 2017 by HappyJackWagon

[JulieM]

11 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Great question. I didn't find anything from Benson that stated the garden was in Jackson County, only America.

Here's Pres. Benson's statement (you're right that he doesn't specifically state Missouri):

"Consider how very fortunate we are to be living in this land of America…Many great events have transpired in this land of destiny. This was the place where Adam dwelt; this was the place where the Garden of Eden was; it was here that Adam met with a body of high priests at Adam-ondi-Ahman shortly before his death and gave them his final blessing, and the place to which he will return to meet with the leaders of his people (D&C 107:53-57). This was the place of three former civilizations: that of Adam, that of the Jaredites, and that of the Nephites."

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 587-588

Do the leaders still teach there will be gathering at Adam-ondi-Ahman where Adam will return in the last days?  If so, why still teach that but reject this was the location of the Garden of Eden?

Edited March 29, 2017 by JulieM

[Ahab]

FYI, folks, there is no need to capitalize the g in garden of Eden.  The place was called Eden and there was simply a garden in it, referred to as the garden of Eden.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Ahab

[cinepro]

10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

FYI, folks, there is no need to capitalize the g in garden of Eden.  The place was called Eden and there was simply a garden in it, referred to as the garden of Eden.

It's "standard practice" to capitalize the G, at least for LDS. 

[cinepro]

20 hours ago, CV75 said:

 

I think these understandings and beliefs were harmless, and in context, understandable. But if we have better information today (and actually, all along considering the D&C, and then at least since the 1992 publications--so some have known better for a long time!), let’s use it and not accuse the Brethren of waffling when they do.

 

The thing is, the Church can actually be pretty good about correcting the mistakes of the past.  For example, by the late 1970s the Church leaders were tired enough of all the "myths" about going back to Missouri that this article was published:

Missouri Myths

If the teachings about the Garden of Eden being in Missouri were incorrect, it would be simple to clearly and widely correct them.  But we have the opposite, where the teachings were reiterated as recently as 1994.

As I've already pointed out, the real problem is the scriptural claims regarding Adam-ondi-Ahman. This pretty well locks in the location to being really close to Missiouri, if not exactly there.  It also has the far more disturbing ancillary implication of a post-Noah break-up of Pangea (which was taught twice recently in General Conference: in 1968 by a member of the FP, and in 1976 by a future Apostle).

Quote

In the course of time from the creation, in the days of Peleg (Gen. 10:16 (JST)), or about the year 2200 B.C., Just prior to the confusion of the languages, the single continent of land that had continued from creation was divided to produce the hemispheres as we now know them. But notwithstanding this, the geographic location of the Garden of Eden was made known to the Prophet Joseph Smith by revelation as here in the land of America, in Jackson County, Missouri, with Independence as the center place.

-Alvin R. Dyer, 1968

 

 

Quote

Holy scripture records that “after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof.” (Ether 13:2.) Such a special place needed now to be kept apart from other regions, free from the indiscriminate traveler as well as the soldier of fortune. To guarantee such sanctity the very surface of the earth was rent. In response to God’s decree, the great continents separated and the ocean rushed in to surround them. The promised place was set apart. Without habitation it waited for the fulfillment of God’s special purposes.

-Jeffrey R. Holland, 1976

 

So it's not just about the Garden of Eden being in Missouri.  The entire LDS narrative of the history of the planet involves Eden in Missouri, a Global Flood carrying Noah to the mountains of the middle east, and the breakup of the continents preserving the New World for it's first settlement by the Jaredites.  This is what has been (and continues to be) officially taught by the Prophets and Apostles and Church publications to this day, even if apologists and the "Newsroom" wish to pretend otherwise.

Edited March 29, 2017 by cinepro

[Ahab]

22 minutes ago, cinepro said:

It's "standard practice" to capitalize the G, at least for LDS. 

Okay, but still not necessary.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

What is the "better source" of information today? Prophets and apostles from earlier days specifically stated it was a revealed truth that the garden was in Jackson County. Do we have any kind of similar revelation changing that or correcting the misstated claim? Or are modern apostles and prophets making assumptions? What is the source of their claim that the past prophets and apostles were in error? 

I didn’t say there is a “better source” – we still have pretty much the same accounts as we’ve had all along. The scriptures have always served as the best source, but I also suggested “we have better information today,” by which I mean “more current scholarship, reasons for the more current take on the subject [and] reasons for the difference [between older messages and the leaked material].”

Please show where “modern apostles and prophets claim that the past prophets and apostles were in error” on this subject.

I don’t think they are making assumptions as I have come to the same conclusion that we do not know the original location of Eden, so much as where Adam dwelt after he left. Posted March 22

35 minutes ago, cinepro said:

The thing is, the Church can actually be pretty good about correcting the mistakes of the past.  For example, by the late 1970s the Church leaders were tired enough of all the "myths" about going back to Missouri that this article was published:

Missouri Myths

If the teachings about the Garden of Eden being in Missouri were incorrect, it would be simple to clearly and widely correct them.  But we have the opposite, where the teachings were reiterated as recently as 1994.

As I've already pointed out, the real problem is the scriptural claims regarding Adam-ondi-Ahman. This pretty well locks in the location to being really close to Missiouri, if not exactly there.  It also has the far more disturbing ancillary implication of a post-Noah break-up of Pangea (which was taught twice recently in General Conference: in 1968 by a member of the FP, and in 1976 by a future Apostle).

So it's not just about the Garden of Eden being in Missouri.  The entire LDS narrative of the history of the planet involves Eden in Missouri, a Global Flood carrying Noah to the mountains of the middle east, and the breakup of the continents preserving the New World for it's first settlement by the Jaredites.  This is what has been (and continues to be) officially taught by the Prophets and Apostles and Church publications to this day, even if apologists and the "Newsroom" wish to pretend otherwise.

It is certainly good to correct the mistakes of the past. I don’t see that being done with the Garden of Eden answer in the leaked document.

Publications still exist from the 19^th century, but that is not all the information we have to go by, nor the only valid source for what we teach today, which is not 1994.

From that article: “the Prophet Joseph apparently instructed his close associates, and perhaps even a general Church gathering, that the ancient Garden of Eden was also located in Jackson County.” That is a good way to teach it.

“Unfortunately, we do not have primary source documentation for all of Joseph Smith’s revelations or doctrinally related declarations.” That teaches a great principle.

“…we teach that the Garden of Eden was on the American continent located where the City of Zion, or the New Jerusalem, will be built. When Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden, they eventually dwelt at a place called Adam-ondi-Ahman, situated in what is now Daviess County, Missouri. … We are committed to the fact that Adam dwelt on [the] American continent.” Eden in Jackson County? That is not what Elder Smith said we are committed to.

These are examples as to why I linked to the same article to prove my points.

And if people really wanted to know and listened to the answers, I think they would be just as amazed that we believe these other details.

[HappyJackWagon]

25 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Okay, but still not necessary.

You crack me up. Sometimes we just need to admit we were wrong  

I didn't realize the G was standard capitalization either, but I guess it makes sense since Garden of Eden is a proper name.

 

38 minutes ago, cinepro said:

As I've already pointed out, the real problem is the scriptural claims regarding Adam-ondi-Ahman. This pretty well locks in the location to being really close to Missiouri, if not exactly there.  It also has the far more disturbing ancillary implication of a post-Noah break-up of Pangea (which was taught twice recently in General Conference: in 1968 by a member of the FP, and in 1976 by a future Apostle).

So it's not just about the Garden of Eden being in Missouri.  The entire LDS narrative of the history of the planet involves Eden in Missouri, a Global Flood carrying Noah to the mountains of the middle east, and the breakup of the continents preserving the New World for it's first settlement by the Jaredites.  This is what has been (and continues to be) officially taught by the Prophets and Apostles and Church publications to this day, even if apologists and the "Newsroom" wish to pretend otherwise.

Cinepro- great stuff. Really interesting. When I saw that 1994 Ensign "answer" earlier I too was a bit surprised by the new earth creationism that has persisted into recent decades. Elder Holland's quote was very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[cinepro]

And just so we're all clear, the CES manual used in the Church colleges and institutes to this day still teaches this.  This means that any young adult (or adult) that takes a college-level religion course on the Old Testament in 2017 is still taught this:

Quote

(2-17) Genesis 2:8. Where Was the Garden of Eden?

“In accord with the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, we teach that the Garden of Eden was on the American continent located where the City Zion, or the New Jerusalem, will be built [see D&C 116; History of the Church, 3:35–36; Dyer, The Refiner’s Fire, pp. 17–18]. When Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden, they eventually dwelt at a place called Adam-ondi-Ahman, situated in what is now Daviess County, Missouri. Three years before the death of Adam he called the righteous of his posterity at this place and blessed them, and it is at this place where Adam, or Michael, will sit as we read in the 7th chapter of Daniel. [Daniel 7:9–14, 21–22, 26–27.]” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:74.)

The Flood and subsequent cataclysms drastically changed the topography and geography of the earth. The descendants of Noah evidently named some rivers, and perhaps other landmarks, after places they had known before the Flood. This theory would explain why rivers in Mesopotamia now bear the names of rivers originally on the American continent. It is also possible that some present river systems are remnants of the antediluvian river systems on the one great continent that existed then.

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/genesis-1-2-the-creation?lang=eng

 

[HappyJackWagon]

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

And if people really wanted to know and listened to the answers, I think they would be just as amazed that we believe these other details.

"We" believe these other details? Like Pangea separating 4200 years ago? Or are you referring to something else? You say we have better information today which informs our understanding. I agree. But wouldn't part of that be that there is no way that Pangea separated 4200 years ago? And why 4200 years ago? The only reason I can think that they would make that specific claim is in order to stick with a new earth creation philosophy. Again, don't "we" know better than that today?

And just to be clear, when you are stating that we have "better information" are you privileging scholarship over prophetic teachings?

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

You crack me up. Sometimes we just need to admit we were wrong  

I didn't realize the G was standard capitalization either, but I guess it makes sense since Garden of Eden is a proper name.

...or treated as such.

The place was called Eden. There was a garden in it, which was eastward in Eden. There was also an area westward of Eden, too.  And a north and a south part oF Eden.

If it makes you feel better you can capitalize any letter or even ALL letters in any place.  But it still isn't necessary.

[HappyJackWagon]

5 minutes ago, cinepro said:

And just so we're all clear, the CES manual used in the Church colleges and institutes to this day still teaches this.  This means that any young adult (or adult) that takes a college-level religion course on the Old Testament in 2017 is still taught this:

 

This is kind of the nail in the coffin for disputing the church teaching of the Garden of Eden being in Independence (Jackson County). It was taught and it still is.

So to the OP... the guideline answer about knowing the precise location of the Garden of Eden is factually incorrect. There has never been a disavowal of that teaching by prophets and apostles (as illustrated in a number of quotes), in the Ensign in 1994, and even in the current CES Institute manual.

So either the brethren aren't aware of this past and present teaching, or they are trying to downplay it. Like I said  

Edited March 29, 2017 by HappyJackWagon

[Ahab]

15 minutes ago, cinepro said:

“In accord with the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, we teach that the Garden of Eden was on the American continent located where the City Zion, or the New Jerusalem, will be built [see D&C 116; History of the Church, 3:35–36; Dyer, The Refiner’s Fire, pp. 17–18].

So "we" teach that the "City Zion", or "the New Jerusalem" will be built on the American continent where the "Garden of Eden" once was. 

Now all we need to know is when, I guess.

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, cinepro said:

And just so we're all clear, the CES manual used in the Church colleges and institutes to this day still teaches this.  This means that any young adult (or adult) that takes a college-level religion course on the Old Testament in 2017 is still taught this:

 

 I wonder how much is assumption and how much is revelation.  This reminds me of Moroni.  There are those who assume he stayed nearby Comoran and reburied the plates there, though not in the same place as the collection of Nephite records.  Others assume that since he lived for decades after his people were functionally destroyed and either defected to the Lamanites or hunted as he was, he put a lot of distance between himself and those out for his blood.  Thus he could not simply place the plates within the record cave, but created a small, but effective hiding place in a nondescript hill in the area of the future teenager, Joseph Smith.

It would appear, imo,  that revelation placed Adam-ondi-Ahman in Missouri.  Some people assume apparently that Eve and Adam settled in the shadow of the Garden and thus Eden is required to be in Missouri. (Taking the story literally here as is usual, but I see it as a temple drama myself so don't feel the need to lock it in usually as tightly) I wonder though, if one was given hundreds of years to live/a long life of many decades, how comfortable it would be to live so close to what was likely a magnificent view of what had been, especially as one's children grew and started asking questions about why they were living in such a lonely and wild place when just a day or two' effort could bring them to a place of bounty and apparent ease (more questions would be pouring out if Mom and Dad told them stories, including "why can't we go there, we didn't eat the fruit, why would God keep us out?)  Just think of the harassment to at least let them try and perhaps the kids started having expeditions to try their luck at sneaking in.  

I can think of a lot of reasons that if Eden was an actual place, whether or not under guard of an angel or just taboos, why Adam and Eve would want to put extensive distance between themselves and the Garden to begin with.  Less heartache and moments of regret or at least wistfulness (gee, it would have been nice if we could have it all).  Even if the Garden was eventually removed or simply reverted to the wilderness without its caretakers, knowing where it had been and was there no longer seems like a lot of avoidable pain.  Making a break with the old way of life, whatever that was, seems to me to be likely a primary motivator and depending on how quickly the kids came and how soon they settled down to farming rather than a nomadic or seminomadic life, they could have gone quite a distance.

So even taking the story quite literally, I don't see a need for Eden itself to be next door to AoA, could be a state or two over. Maybe it was even California, which to me is about as close to Eden in certain areas as one can get these days. (Not serious here)

[Ahab]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

So even taking the story quite literally, I don't see a need for Eden itself to be next door to AoA, could be a state or two over. Maybe it was even California, which to me is about as close to Eden in certain areas as one can get these days. (Not serious here)

I wish I knew how to paste images into a post.

When reading more of the story of Adam and Eve after they left the garden of Eden I sometimes get the idea that God and Adam are still neighbors and sometimes talk across the hedges to each other.

I wouldn't want to move further away from God.  Having him as a next door neighbor would still seem pretty good to me.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Ahab

[HappyJackWagon]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

 I wonder how much is assumption and how much is revelation.  This reminds me of Moroni.  There are those who assume he stayed nearby Comoran and reburied the plates there, though not in the same place as the collection of Nephite records.  Others assume that since he lived for decades after his people were functionally destroyed and either defected to the Lamanites or hunted as he was, he put a lot of distance between himself and those out for his blood.  Thus he could not simply place the plates within the record cave, but created a small, but effective hiding place in a nondescript hill in the area of the future teenager, Joseph Smith.

It would appear, imo,  that revelation placed Adam-ondi-Ahman in Missouri.  Some people assume apparently that Eve and Adam settled in the shadow of the Garden and thus Eden is required to be in Missouri. (Taking the story literally here as is usual, but I see it as a temple drama myself so don't feel the need to lock it in usually as tightly) I wonder though, if one was given hundreds of years to live/a long life of many decades, how comfortable it would be to live so close to what was likely a magnificent view of what had been, especially as one's children grew and started asking questions about why they were living in such a lonely and wild place when just a day or two' effort could bring them to a place of bounty and apparent ease (more questions would be pouring out if Mom and Dad told them stories, including "why can't we go there, we didn't eat the fruit, why would God keep us out?)  Just think of the harassment to at least let them try and perhaps the kids started having expeditions to try their luck at sneaking in.  

I can think of a lot of reasons that if Eden was an actual place, whether or not under guard of an angel or just taboos, why Adam and Eve would want to put extensive distance between themselves and the Garden to begin with.  Less heartache and moments of regret or at least wistfulness (gee, it would have been nice if we could have it all).  Even if the Garden was eventually removed or simply reverted to the wilderness without its caretakers, knowing where it had been and was there no longer seems like a lot of avoidable pain.  Making a break with the old way of life, whatever that was, seems to me to be likely a primary motivator and depending on how quickly the kids came and how soon they settled down to farming rather than a nomadic or seminomadic life, they could have gone quite a distance.

So even taking the story quite literally, I don't see a need for Eden itself to be next door to AoA, could be a state or two over. Maybe it was even California, which to me is about as close to Eden in certain areas as one can get these days. (Not serious here)

I've heard this a lot but Joseph Smith's contemporaries attribute the teaching to him. There are multiple men who were apostles (later prophets) who make the claim, and it fits his other teachings of the time so I'm not sure why it wouldn't be considered a revelation. I understand there is no contemporary writing of a "revelation" but that's not really unusual for times when Joseph didn't have a scribe. But there are enough consistent, and presumably reliable, sources making the claim that it seems fairly strong.

I see your point about putting distance between a painful memory but I just read today (already forgot where) about how the fall affected the garden just as it affected Adam and Eve so it that's the case there wouldn't have even been a garden to look longingly upon. AoA is a good 75 miles north of Independence which is a good distance, especially in days where walking is the primary mode of transport. I live in a small town and I'm often amazed by how many old people were born and have lived in the same 10 mile radius their entire lives. I don't think it that strange that people in antiquity would also stay pretty close to home as travel would be arduous as would creating new shelters etc. I can see them sticking pretty close...assuming this is literal of course.

 

[cinepro]

27 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I wish I knew how to paste images into a post.

When reading more of the story of Adam and Eve after they left the garden of Eden I sometimes get the idea that God and Adam are still neighbors and sometimes talk across the hedges to each other.

I wouldn't want to move further away from God.  Having him as a next door neighbor would still seem pretty good to me.

It would have to have looked something like this...

[rongo]

12 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I've heard this a lot but Joseph Smith's contemporaries attribute the teaching to him.

cinepro: 

And just so we're all clear, the CES manual used in the Church colleges and institutes to this day still teaches this.  This means that any young adult (or adult) that takes a college-level religion course on the Old Testament in 2017 is still taught this:

I'm saddened by the resistance of online active Mormons to this, exhibited here. It very clearly was taught that the Garden of Eden was where Independence is, and that Adam-ondi-Ahman was in modern Daviess County. It is only now being spun because some people find it to be embarrassing to the secular world. 

The only reason people think that the Garden of Eden was in Iraq is because the river Euphrates is mentioned, and they assume that it is the same one in modern Iraq. And because Iraq is fairly close to Arrarat. Of course, a global flood would make identifying the Euphrates a moot point.  

I'm active, well-read, and have a couple of science teaching certifications (high school biology and middle school general science), and I believe that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri and that there was a global flood. That makes me an embarrassment to a segment of the apologist set, but I'm in good company. The Church has yet to throw these under the bus with essays . . .  

[cinepro]

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

 I wonder how much is assumption and how much is revelation.  This reminds me of Moroni.  There are those who assume he stayed nearby Comoran and reburied the plates there, though not in the same place as the collection of Nephite records.  Others assume that since he lived for decades after his people were functionally destroyed and either defected to the Lamanites or hunted as he was, he put a lot of distance between himself and those out for his blood.  Thus he could not simply place the plates within the record cave, but created a small, but effective hiding place in a nondescript hill in the area of the future teenager, Joseph Smith.

It would appear, imo,  that revelation placed Adam-ondi-Ahman in Missouri.  Some people assume apparently that Eve and Adam settled in the shadow of the Garden and thus Eden is required to be in Missouri. (Taking the story literally here as is usual, but I see it as a temple drama myself so don't feel the need to lock it in usually as tightly) I wonder though, if one was given hundreds of years to live/a long life of many decades, how comfortable it would be to live so close to what was likely a magnificent view of what had been, especially as one's children grew and started asking questions about why they were living in such a lonely and wild place when just a day or two' effort could bring them to a place of bounty and apparent ease (more questions would be pouring out if Mom and Dad told them stories, including "why can't we go there, we didn't eat the fruit, why would God keep us out?)  Just think of the harassment to at least let them try and perhaps the kids started having expeditions to try their luck at sneaking in.  

I can think of a lot of reasons that if Eden was an actual place, whether or not under guard of an angel or just taboos, why Adam and Eve would want to put extensive distance between themselves and the Garden to begin with.  Less heartache and moments of regret or at least wistfulness (gee, it would have been nice if we could have it all).  Even if the Garden was eventually removed or simply reverted to the wilderness without its caretakers, knowing where it had been and was there no longer seems like a lot of avoidable pain.  Making a break with the old way of life, whatever that was, seems to me to be likely a primary motivator and depending on how quickly the kids came and how soon they settled down to farming rather than a nomadic or seminomadic life, they could have gone quite a distance.

So even taking the story quite literally, I don't see a need for Eden itself to be next door to AoA, could be a state or two over. Maybe it was even California, which to me is about as close to Eden in certain areas as one can get these days. (Not serious here)

That's fine.  But I think there is a huge difference between saying "The Church leaders and publications teach XYZ, but they're mistaken and I don't believe it"  and "The Church leaders and publications don't really teach XYZ."

Understandably, it can be extremely difficult for many LDS to even consider the former, so in such cases they automatically assume the latter, no matter how demonstrably false it is.   I'm willing to grant a lot of leeway in situations where the Church has changed direction or otherwise abandoned or corrected past teachings, but there are too many cases where Internet Mormons argue that the Church doesn't really teach something only because they so badly want it to be so.

[HappyJackWagon]

3 minutes ago, rongo said:

 

 

I'm saddened by the resistance of online active Mormons to this, exhibited here. It very clearly was taught that the Garden of Eden was where Independence is, and that Adam-ondi-Ahman was in modern Daviess County. It is only now being spun because some people find it to be embarrassing to the secular world. 

The only reason people think that the Garden of Eden was in Iraq is because the river Euphrates is mentioned, and they assume that it is the same one in modern Iraq. And because Iraq is fairly close to Arrarat. Of course, a global flood would make identifying the Euphrates a moot point.  

I'm active, well-read, and have a couple of science teaching certifications (high school biology and middle school general science), and I believe that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri and that there was a global flood. That makes me an embarrassment to a segment of the apologist set, but I'm in good company. The Church has yet to throw these under the bus with essays . . .  

But as a science teacher do you believe that Pangea only separated 4200 years ago and that the earth is literally 6000 years old? I agree with Cinepro that these claims in the above quotes are more problematic that where Eden was. No one can prove Eden's location but there is ample evidence the earth isn't 6000 years old and that the continents separated more than 4200 years ago.

I am curious about your explanation for why there isn't any sedimentary evidence of a great flood 5000 years ago.

[Ahab]

22 minutes ago, cinepro said:

It would have to have looked something like this...

Exactly what I was thinking of. But with more color.

[Ahab]

17 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

But as a science teacher do you believe that Pangea only separated 4200 years ago and that the earth is literally 6000 years old? I agree with Cinepro that these claims in the above quotes are more problematic that where Eden was. No one can prove Eden's location but there is ample evidence the earth isn't 6000 years old and that the continents separated more than 4200 years ago.

I am curious about your explanation for why there isn't any sedimentary evidence of a great flood 5000 years ago.

Easy to understand when you understand what is being dated in carbon dating.

God never said all of the carbon or other elements he used to create were brand spanking new when he created this planet, or even the universe.