Heber J. Grant and Anxiety

[Duncan]

On the twitter for the LDS church history feed it said that Pres. Grant struggled with anxiety. I have never heard of this before and it gave no source. Does anyone know if that is true, that he struggled with anxiety?

[Ouagadougou]

Yeah, but I think it might have been George Albert Smith:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765622942/Mormon-author-talks-about-his-mental-illness-and-faith.html

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/2012/mental-illness-and-george-albert-smith/

Edited March 11, 2017 by Ouagadougou

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

On the twitter for the LDS church history feed it said that Pres. Grant struggled with anxiety. I have never heard of this before and it gave no source. Does anyone know if that is true, that he struggled with anxiety?

Yes, he did.  He also had a speech impediment iirc.  I have no clue whether or not it was at the level of mental disorder.  I would describe myself as struggling with anxiety all my life, but having my daughter to compare myself to, I would not say it was a mental illness, but simply a habit of thought picked up from my mother and attached to the tension that .I get with my neurological/movement disorder.  Perhaps that is why anxiety drugs never helped me while they help my daughter.  (Thyroid supplements help though).  So you can experience anxiety or depression even on a regular basis without it being a mental illness.

I am pretty sure it is in his bio.  I read about it years ago.

George Albert may have suffered from depression, off the top of my head.

http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/53239901-180/stapley-smith-writes-church.html.csp

According to this psych professor, people should be more careful to assume mental illness rather than just a natural response to a hard life of a caring and sensitive man:

http://www.millennialstar.org/george-albert-smith-depression-and-the-pathologization-of-compassion/

"

In the end, it is much too much of a stretch backward in psycho-historical diagnostics to ascribe Elder Smith’s problems to “clinical depression.” Just because his case may look like modern clinical depression from 30,000 feet (so to speak) and from a century after the fact, does not mean that it was the same thing at all. Indeed, the journal article itself notes: “Of course, diagnosis becomes increasingly murky and uncertain, the further back in time one goes” (p. 127).

Interestingly, the author of the Journal article on President Smith’s “breakdown” spends most of the article citing contemporary physicians opinions on the apostle’s physical ailments. This is very tricky business and must be undertaken with considerable care and plenty of caveats. When Woodger does discuss the mental dimensions of the apostle’s case, she cites first an emergency room physician (Dr. Kirk Gilmore) for the diagnosis of depression. However, even more interestingly, Woodger states that while the physician cited felt certain that George Albert experienced depression, “he leans toward seeing it as ‘secondary depression’ caused by his lengthy ‘chronic illness’ and complicated by his ‘frail constitution’ and oversensitivity to diet” (p. 128). Further, she writes that Dr. Gilmore “discounts ‘emotional or mental illness’ because George Albert ‘was not irrational, hallucinatory, nor delusional” (p. 128). Yes, you read that right! The author who Stapley cites in his blog post as providing evidence that George Albert Smith suffered from depression in fact argues exactly the opposite."...

"So, after reading Woolger’s article carefully, as well as having already studied George Albert Smith’s life and trials in some depth, I would say that what we are really looking at here is a person who was saddened and frustrated by his all-too-often inability, brought on by physical frailty and persistent illnesses, to perform the duties and responsibilities he felt he must perform. Coupled with a deep sensitivity to the needs and sufferings of others, this often left him feeling sad, inadequate, and worrisome. Such is not, however, depression as understood in psychiatric or psychological circles today. Rather than being evidence of pathology of any sort, it is wonderful evidence of normality, spiritual sensitivity, and basic goodness. It is a good thing when we do not medicate people for such things. I fear the day when compassion is reduced to pathology."

Edited March 11, 2017 by Calm

[3DOP]

Cal, hey. Nice post above. Especially the last paragraph. Anxiety is not something to be sought, but it is part of our mortal condition. It is a natural reaction to the struggles of life.

It seems to me like it would be more extraordinary to know of someone who never struggled with anxiety.

There is a prayer in the Mass that is sometimes translated as asking our God to "free us from all anxiety". The Latin asks for deliverance from "omni perburtatione" (all perturbation). This prayer immediately follows the Pater Noster (Our Father). Worry, anxiety, or perturbation occurs when we have the fears that come with forgetting or not believing that things will be okay. We need God to deliver us from an understandable and rational anxiety. I agree that apart from continual renewal of the supernatural peace of God that comes by faith, anxiety, far from being a pathology, is normal. I think it was normal of St. Peter to start fearing he was going to sink when he went out on the water. The soul should use anxiety as Peter did when it prompted a cry to be saved from sinking. I think it is normal for anyone to have anxiety about death, a universal condition.

The Good News helps us to hope to exceed normal. Anxiety, with the restlessness and disruption of peace that follows, can serve as a signal that the humble soul has perhaps become too self-reliant. We need reminded of our weakness and frailty. Anxiety can help us to see the need to slay the pride which has led to independence of spirit. Anxiety can be a gift to us poor souls who are so prone to forget that apart from grace, we are most miserable. Without anxiety struggles, maybe we would forget our good God, and that would be the worst evil. Better to be anxious than proud.

Edited March 11, 2017 by 3DOP

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Cal, hey. Nice post above. Especially the last paragraph. Anxiety is not something to be sought, but it is part of our mortal condition. It is a natural reaction to the struggles of life.

It seems to me like it would be more extraordinary to know of someone who never struggled with anxiety.

There is a prayer in the Mass that is sometimes translated as asking our God to "free us from all anxiety". The Latin asks for deliverance from "omni perburtatione" (all perturbation). This prayer immediately follows the Pater Noster (Our Father). Worry, anxiety, or perturbation occurs when we have the fears that come with forgetting or not believing that things will be okay. We need God to deliver us from an understandable and rational anxiety. I agree that apart from continual renewal of the supernatural peace of God that comes by faith, anxiety, far from being a pathology, is normal. I think it was normal of St. Peter to start fearing he was going to sink when he went out on the water. The soul should use anxiety as Peter did when it prompted a cry to be saved from sinking. I think it is normal for anyone to have anxiety about death, a universal condition.

The Good News helps us to hope to exceed normal. Anxiety, with the restlessness and disruption of peace that follows, can serve as a signal that the humble soul has perhaps become too self-reliant. We need reminded of our weakness and frailty. Anxiety can help us to see the need to slay the pride which has led to independence of spirit. Anxiety can be a gift to us poor souls who are so prone to forget that apart from grace, we are most miserable. Without anxiety struggles, maybe we would forget our good God, and that would be the worst evil. Better to be anxious than proud.

Yes, but there are also those among us for whom overwhelming anxiety becomes a debilitating and life-threatening condition. For them it is not a gift.

Edited March 11, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[3DOP]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes, but there are also those among us for whom overwhelming anxiety becomes a debilitating and life-threatening condition. For them it is not a gift.

In the way physical pain alerts us that something is wrong in the body, so anxiety serves as an alert that something requiring our attention is happening in the soul. If the pain becomes acute or the anxiety becomes overwhelming, relief is going to be sought out. In that sense, anxiety gives the soul important information about itself. There are good reasons for folks to have intense anxieties.  

Nobody believes that there is anxiety in heaven. Anxiety would be most unreasonable for inhabitants of heaven. But here on earth? Besides all the things that we can be afraid of that might happen without our consent, there are those things that we do that we are ashamed of, that make for confusion and anxiety rather than peace of mind.

Overwhelming anxiety can happen more readily to a soul that is on the path of perfection and who cares more deeply about the state of their own souls and of their neighbors. 

Getting back to Pres. Grant, I would be more concerned about someone in such a high position who never faced anxiety. 

Christ kept telling the Apostles to fear not, to be at peace, while giving them a mission that would scare most of us to death.

Jesus says sufficient for the day is the evil thereof and warns us that our imaginations tend to take us too far into the future. That can be a false anxiety (meaning that it is based on an unknowable future). The undisciplined imagination is almost sure to suffer from this. Most of us know this by experience. I am confident that most of us have worried about things that never even happened. We had false anxiety as defined above. Then we see that we are safe from that fear and move on to the next fear. Assuredly that is a debilitating pattern that must be broken. As a first class melancholic brooder, I am convinced that it is a commendable and rewarding exercise to learn how to command our imagination and to not let the imagination run free. A victory, even a very small one, wherein the problem is diagnosed and the remedy taken can be very motivating. The imagination is supposed to belong to us, not the other way around. I am for imagination control and if it takes medication to quiet a disobedient imagination, I am for medication. (This, even though it might mean difficulty in following our Lord to the Garden of Agony)  

We have the record of one well-ordered soul that was extremely troubled about imminent terrors that were certain to occur. "Then he saith to them: My soul is sorrowful even unto death..." (Mt. 26:38) Jesus Christ Himself was "sorrowful even unto death" during His Agony in the Garden. In the Garden we see overwhelming "true anxiety" that is most reasonable. How can we be His followers, taking up our own crosses, without any anxiety at all? Intense anxiety is unavoidable. Jesus didn't try to avoid it, but for the joy that was set before Him, He endured. (Heb. 12:2) It is notable that Christ disciplined Himself to wait until His death was less than 24 hours away to give full vent to the very human and understandable anxiety that would accompany the suffering and death that He knew was certain.

Both "gifts" are unpleasant, but without physical pain and mental anxiety which has the potential for extreme intensity, I hold that we would behave in ways that are more harmful for our bodies and souls. Both gifts force us to take better care of ourselves than we would in their absence.

Thanks for the reply Bernard. Hopefully I have explained better in what way I think anxiety is a gift from the God who made us to flee anxiety at almost any cost, especially if it means that we think about the possible benefits of religion. Without pain and anxiety in our lives, I think we would make ourselves even unhappier than we are with "gifts" that make us suffer.

Rory

Edited March 11, 2017 by 3DOP

[Bernard Gui]

43 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

In the way physical pain alerts us that something is wrong in the body, so anxiety serves as an alert that something requiring our attention is happening in the soul. If the pain becomes acute or the anxiety becomes overwhelming, relief is going to be sought out. In that sense, anxiety gives the soul important information about itself. There are good reasons for folks to have intense anxieties.  

Nobody believes that there is anxiety in heaven. Anxiety would be most unreasonable for inhabitants of heaven. But here on earth? Besides all the things that we can be afraid of that might happen without our consent, there are those things that we do that we are ashamed of, that make for confusion and anxiety rather than peace of mind.

Overwhelming anxiety can happen more readily to a soul that is on the path of perfection and who cares more deeply about the state of their own souls and of their neighbors. 

Getting back to Pres. Grant, I would be more concerned about someone in such a high position who never faced anxiety. 

Christ kept telling the Apostles to fear not, to be at peace, while giving them a mission that would scare most of us to death.

Jesus says sufficient for the day is the evil thereof and warns us that our imaginations tend to take us too far into the future. That can be a false anxiety (meaning that it is based on an unknowable future). The undisciplined imagination is almost sure to suffer from this. Most of us know this by experience. I am confident that most of us have worried about things that never even happened. We had false anxiety as defined above. Then we see that we are safe from that fear and move on to the next fear. Assuredly that is a debilitating pattern that must be broken. As a first class melancholic brooder, I am convinced that it is a commendable and rewarding exercise to learn how to command our imagination and to not let the imagination run free. A victory, even a very small one, wherein the problem is diagnosed and the remedy taken can be very motivating. The imagination is supposed to belong to us, not the other way around. I am for imagination control and if it takes medication to quiet a disobedient imagination, I am for medication. (This, even though it might mean difficulty in following our Lord to the Garden of Agony)  

We have the record of one well-ordered soul that was extremely troubled about imminent terrors that were certain to occur. "Then he saith to them: My soul is sorrowful even unto death..." (Mt. 26:38) Jesus Christ Himself was "sorrowful even unto death" during His Agony in the Garden. In the Garden we see overwhelming "true anxiety" that is most reasonable. How can we be His followers, taking up our own crosses, without any anxiety at all? Intense anxiety is unavoidable. Jesus didn't try to avoid it, but for the joy that was set before Him, He endured. (Heb. 12:2) It is notable that Christ disciplined Himself to wait until His death was less than 24 hours away to give full vent to the very human and understandable anxiety that would accompany the suffering and death that He knew was certain.

Both "gifts" are unpleasant, but without physical pain and mental anxiety which has the potential for extreme intensity, I hold that we would behave in ways that are more harmful for our bodies and souls. Both gifts force us to take better care of ourselves than we would in their absence.

Thanks for the reply Bernard. Hopefully I have explained better in what way I think anxiety is a gift from the God who made us to flee anxiety at almost any cost, especially if it means that we think about the possible benefits of religion. Without pain and anxiety in our lives, I think we would make ourselves even unhappier than we are with "gifts" that make us suffer.

Rory

And I agree. However, the anxiety disorder from which my son suffers which appears to be at the present time untreatable after two years of counseling and medication is not a gift. It prevents him from living any kind of normal life such as getting on a bus, holding down a job, attending a family reunion, making new friends, walking out of his apartment on some days, staying in a college class more than a week, and many other things. 

[Duncan]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

And I agree. However, the anxiety disorder from which my son suffers which appears to be at the present time untreatable after two years of counseling and medication is not a gift. It prevents him from living any kind of normal life such as getting on a bus, holding down a job, attending a family reunion, making new friends, walking out of his apartment on some days, staying in a college class more than a week, and many other things. 

I struggle with anxiety as well and at one point I was in that situation as well. I had a non epileptic seizure in 2013 and that adds a layer of funk on it as well. I too couldn't even leave my place in total fear, let alone do other things It was pure.....I had panic attacks for 5 years and I wouldn't wish a PA on my worst enemy. In my situation I think the Lord slowly led me out of it. Last year I went to this Anxiety Support group and did the program. Best decision ever. As I say I still deal with it but they gave me the knowledge necessary to handle these situations whereby I am able to function in society. I am not where I want to be but I am better than I was and I hope your son's situation gets better! I don't know if you read the latest Ensign but they have an article on anxiety.

[juliann]

20 hours ago, Calm said:

 

"So, after reading Woolger’s article carefully, as well as having already studied George Albert Smith’s life and trials in some depth, I would say that what we are really looking at here is a person who was saddened and frustrated by his all-too-often inability, brought on by physical frailty and persistent illnesses, to perform the duties and responsibilities he felt he must perform. Coupled with a deep sensitivity to the needs and sufferings of others, this often left him feeling sad, inadequate, and worrisome. Such is not, however, depression as understood in psychiatric or psychological circles today. Rather than being evidence of pathology of any sort, it is wonderful evidence of normality, spiritual sensitivity, and basic goodness. It is a good thing when we do not medicate people for such things. I fear the day when compassion is reduced to pathology."

Hmmmm.  Why is this person working so hard to prove chronic sadness, worry and feelings of inadequacy is not depression? One doesn't disappear for extended periods out of "normality, sensitivity and goodness." 

I taught this first lesson on Smith and spent some time on this because I thought it was the best message that those who are suffering from depression could ever hear. 

[Calm]

 Bernard...three years ago my daughter finally decided she wanted some control over her life and we started therapy and drug exploration.  Therapy has gone well, but it is obvious a huge part of it is biochemical.  After six months of a great reaction to one drug (she was driving and serious about getting her license, I was dreaming of her taking a college class!!), she started dropping again and it has been hell for most of the last two years.  Especially the 4-5 month cold she got each winter.

Finally seeing some light again.  Hoping we will have a good summer to put the house in order so we can easily care for ourselves when the drops come.  We need to build her immune system to beat the virus.  Just got a hefty air purifier.  Now I get to teach her about keeping her room dust free...yeah, right.

I am sorry no joy yet for your son.  She takes anxiety, depression, and sleep meds and Vitamin D as that got real low.  I can pass on the info privately.  If you are interested, there is a new one that might be helpful, it is for sleep, but affected her mood so much we talked the insurance into letting her have it twice a day.  It is a more bioavailabile form of a very common drug, for ten days I thought it was going to give me my life of cuddling grandkids and sitting watching the sun set on the back porch swing back, but as all drugs so far, it reverses and aggravates the problem.  So grateful it works for her, sleeps at semireasonable time and happy when she wakes up.  Never lasts for the full 12 hours, none actually do that I know of.  Heard of some class action suits over painkillers...I wake up old woman every morning because that one...

Anyway, we could share ideas if you like.  Maybe they might even want to write each other.

Cal

[Bernard Gui]

11 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I struggle with anxiety as well and at one point I was in that situation as well. I had a non epileptic seizure in 2013 and that adds a layer of funk on it as well. I too couldn't even leave my place in total fear, let alone do other things It was pure.....I had panic attacks for 5 years and I wouldn't wish a PA on my worst enemy. In my situation I think the Lord slowly led me out of it. Last year I went to this Anxiety Support group and did the program. Best decision ever. As I say I still deal with it but they gave me the knowledge necessary to handle these situations whereby I am able to function in society. I am not where I want to be but I am better than I was and I hope your son's situation gets better! I don't know if you read the latest Ensign but they have an article on anxiety.

I understand what you are talking about. I hope you are better and better every day. Could you give me details about the support group? 

Edited March 11, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

 Bernard...three years ago my daughter finally decided she wanted some control over her life and we started therapy and drug exploration.  Therapy has gone well, but it is obvious a huge part of it is biochemical.  After six months of a great reaction to one drug (she was driving and serious about getting her license, I was dreaming of her taking a college class!!), she started dropping again and it has been hell for most of the last two years.  Especially the 4-5 month cold she got each winter.

Finally seeing some light again.  Hoping we will have a good summer to put the house in order so we can easily care for ourselves when the drops come.  We need to build her immune system to beat the virus.  Just got a hefty air purifier.  Now I get to teach her about keeping her room dust free...yeah, right.

I am sorry no joy yet for your son.  She takes anxiety, depression, and sleep meds and Vitamin D as that got real low.  I can pass on the info privately.  If you are interested, there is a new one that might be helpful, it is for sleep, but affected her mood so much we talked the insurance into letting her have it twice a day.  It is a more bioavailabile form of a very common drug, for ten days I thought it was going to give me my life of cuddling grandkids and sitting watching the sun set on the back porch swing back, but as all drugs so far, it reverses and aggravates the problem.  So grateful it works for her, sleeps at semireasonable time and happy when she wakes up.  Never lasts for the full 12 hours, none actually do that I know of.  Heard of some class action suits over painkillers...I wake up old woman every morning because that one...

Anyway, we could share ideas if you like.  Maybe they might even want to write each other.

Cal

Thanks. Yes, I am interested in more information! He has been able to move out of our home and is living with a friend in another city. Anxiety, depression and sleep meds, vitamins, counseling, done that. We have no idea what to do other than wait. He has so many talents....music, writing, art, languages and more but cannot capitalize on them. We have no idea what to do other than wait. 

[Calm]

Just now, juliann said:

Hmmmm.  Why is this person working so hard to prove chronic sadness, worry and feelings of inadequacy is not depression? One doesn't disappear for extended periods out of "normality, sensitivity and goodness." 

I taught this first lesson on Smith and spent some time on this because I thought it was the best message that those who are suffering from depression could ever hear. 

I think he is concerned that society is going too much to mental illness, which means 'just pop the wonder drug', when coping skills and just being realistic about the stresses of life and giving one time to heal works best for most rather than try to skip the pain with a pill.  There are so many side effects with drugs that cause the same thing they mean to help with and thus can end up adding more and more if not careful.

Like I said before, living with someone who has anxiety as an illness, I no longer view my anxiety as one.  Imbalance of thyroid and bad habits from family and confusion with another disorder is all it is, lol. It is important not to go there too soon, as meds can sedate the pain away, but doesn't deal with the cause if it isn't purely biochemical.

I think it is very important to teach that anyone can get depressed, have anxiety.  Some of us may even become burdened with mental or emotional illness.  In those cases there primarily is a physical cause.  Too often though, if you view it that way, it is too easy to slip into learned helpless when drugs don't give enough relief to feel normal and you may ignore the stuff that helps.

---

He may have been wrong in the case, but if that was his reasoning and not just mine, I think his caution is very wise.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I understand what you are talking about. I hope you are better and better every day. Could you give me details about the support group? 

I want the details as well, please.

[Tacenda]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I want the details as well, please.

Me too, I'm assuming they might be in every town. I have anxiety, but it's mild, except for my ability to drive on the freeway going over 65 mph. But for two days I haven't wanted to leave the house or even shower. My poor husband.

Sorry to have popped in like this. I hope life will get better for many of us, especially the youth.

[notHagoth7]

On 3/11/2017 at 4:19 PM, Calm said:

I want the details as well, please.

Could be referring to NAMI ... ?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, notHagoth7 said:

Could be referring to NAMI ... ?

No, he is not.   He gave me the info.  Unfortunately nothing in Utah, though there may be similar groups.  I may ask my therapist if I see her again (not as angsty over my mom, so haven't seen her for awhile....probably should check in just to see if anything gets unburied in my usual gush).

Edited March 13, 2017 by Calm

[Duncan]

Just now, Calm said:

No, he is not.   He gave me the info.  Unfortunately nothing in Utah, though there may be similar groups.  I may ask my therapist if I see her again (not as angsty over my mom, so haven't seen her for awhile....probably should check in just to see if anything gets unburied in my usual gush).

http://www.highlandridgehospital.com/anxiety

I don't know but maybe this will help?

[Calm]

Too far for me to drive.  Both anxiety and my movement/neurological/call it whatever you want it drives me crazy disorder make driving farther than 20 minutes more cost than benefit.  There is undoubtedly something down here though.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Calm