Death penalty

[MormonVideoGame]

1 hour ago, Sleeper Cell said:

The worst punishment is life in prison?  That, no doubt, explains why very few on death row appeal their death sentences.  It also explains why very few accused murderers accept plea bargains to avoid the death penalty.

CFR. Is death the worst punishment? Tell that to the families of the victims. You think the victims received the worst punishment too? 

Many Muslim extremists want to be martyred. Many mass shooters shoot themselves, how is the death penalty the worst punishment for them? Just like Bane said, "You don't fear death... You welcome it. Your punishment must be more severe." You have any idea how horrible prison is? prisoner brutally get beaten up by other prisoners,  even the prisoners that are there for non-violent. Life in prison is just horrible, and no one cares about you there. 

There may be no life after death. When Bin laden was killed he didn't suffer a bit. If there is no life after death who is going to punish him? Some of the 9/11 victims had a slow death. No justice in my opinion.  

1 hour ago, Sleeper Cell said:

The death penalty is extremely expensive?   As compared to the price paid by murder victims and their families?   Do you really believe that seeking justice should primarily be a matter of dollars and cents?   BTW, isn’t most of the expense due to the constant appeals made by those on death row -- appeals that presumably they would not be making had they been given the “harsher” sentence of  “life without parole?” 

Listen, it is only my opinion that life in prison is the worst punishment.  What about "4% of defendants sentenced to die are innocent" The death penalty is the worst punishment for the innocent because it is an action that can't be fixed. 

1 hour ago, Sleeper Cell said:

 Are you serious?  Do you have any idea how deeply offensive this is to those whose loved ones have given their lives in defense of our country?  

Let me clarify. I am grateful to all the US soldiers for serving my country. My point is that death can't be seen as the worst punishment. You think our soldiers get the worst punishment when they die? No death is not the worst punishment, and that is exactly what I am saying. 

Edited March 8, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[MormonVideoGame]

So can someone explain how death is the worst punishment? 

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

So can someone explain how death is the worst punishment? 

Someone who believes it is, and also believes there is no life after death, could believe death is the worst because (they believe) there is nothing left to lose after that.

I'm not one of those people who still believes that death is the worst; however, there are still people who do.

[Calm]

"Do you really believe that seeking justice should primarily be a matter of dollars and cents?   BTW, isn’t most of the expense due to the constant appeals made by those on death row"

Like medical costs, it is a matter of resources available.  If the sky is the limit for a few, it means that justice is less likely for many.

Remove the appeals by removing the death sentence, money can be saved and put towards getting justice for other victims, most of whom are still living.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Calm

[bcuzbcuz]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

Get real.  What do you think I could do to show you the world(s) that exist where people live after they die.

Oh, wait a sec, this world is an example.

That was easy.

A clever? turn of phrase. You mean the walking dead.....? My daughter had a boyfriend who seemd to be among the walking d... but I digress. 

I was hoping you would give something concrete. Oh, well. (sigh)

[bcuzbcuz]

29 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

So can someone explain how death is the worst punishment? 

An excellent question. I would think that those who do not believe in an existence after death would not fear death, as some imagine. There is no final tally, no paying the ferryman. Life, for such a person, is not a bridge to a future damnation, but merely an end to a continuation of life. Maybe even a relief, an inevitable reward, for some. 

Edited March 8, 2017 by bcuzbcuz

[Ahab]

17 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

A clever? turn of phrase. You mean the walking dead.....? My daughter had a boyfriend who seemd to be among the walking d... but I digress. 

I was hoping you would give something concrete. Oh, well. (sigh)

This world has concrete on it. And it is a valid example of a world with dead people living on it.

I don't think that what you want to see is an example of such a world, though.  I think what you want to see is some of the dead people living on it. And you will, someday, but right now I can't make you see that.

P.s. Well, I suppose I could make you see that, but then I would have to kill you.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Ahab

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said:

So can someone explain how death is the worst punishment? 

It is the worst punishment as they get torment in the spirit world without any lawyers appealing that the punishment is too extreme. While in prison, they get free meals, bed, healthcare, can socialize with fellow inmates.  Some occasionally get a vacation by escape.

Edited March 8, 2017 by carbon dioxide

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

It is the worst punishment as they get torment in the spirit world without any lawyers appealing that the punishment is too extreme. While in prison, they get free meals, bed, healthcare, can socialize with fellow inmates.  Some occasionally get a vacation by escape.

Death doesn't automatically result in spiritual torment.  Many righteous saved souls have been put to death and they did not suffer on the other side.

And have you ever tasted prison food?  Much of it leaves a lot to be desired.

[carbon dioxide]

31 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Death doesn't automatically result in spiritual torment.  Many righteous saved souls have been put to death and they did not suffer on the other side.

And have you ever tasted prison food?  Much of it leaves a lot to be desired.

I was not speaking of the righteous but people getting the death penalty or life in prison for an action.   I imagine that they get used to prison food.

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I was not speaking of the righteous but people getting the death penalty or life in prison for an action.   I imagine that they get used to prison food.

You were talking about suffering after death too, though, and not all who die in prison by the death penalty will continue to suffer in the next life. For many reasons.

But, yeah, being put to death is probably a lot worse than having to eat poor quality food for a long time.  Probably.  I guess. At least as long as I didn't have to eat a whole lot of it.

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

You were talking about suffering after death too, though, and not all who die in prison by the death penalty will continue to suffer in the next life. For many reasons.

But, yeah, being put to death is probably a lot worse than having to eat poor quality food for a long time.  Probably.  I guess. At least as long as I didn't have to eat a whole lot of it.

I think its an easily provable thing.  I think if one was to go into a prison and offer those with life sentences the choice of taking a cyanide pill to continue serving their sentence, very few would take the pill.  As bad as prison is, there is still something worse and they will still choose life over death.   The wicked do suffer after death.  The righteous do not.  The suffering of the wicked will stop at some point but it will not stopped by lawyers or a need to address an overcrowded prison.

[Ahab]

29 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I think its an easily provable thing.  I think if one was to go into a prison and offer those with life sentences the choice of taking a cyanide pill to continue serving their sentence, very few would take the pill.  As bad as prison is, there is still something worse and they will still choose life over death.   The wicked do suffer after death.  The righteous do not.  The suffering of the wicked will stop at some point but it will not stopped by lawyers or a need to address an overcrowded prison.

Really bad prison conditions aside, I think we're close enough to agreement with each other now that we can agree to agree, and I am doing that now.

[CA Steve]

Rongo,

How did the debate go?

[rongo]

It was a lot of fun. The crowd exceeded their expectations, and they had to make extra copies of the audience ballots. I would estimate around 200 in the audience in the Performing Arts Center.

The undercard debates were between students. The first one was about mandatory vaccination, and the second one was about U.S. immigration policy. 

I "lost" the debate in the audience vote (48%-39%-13%), but I think people are generally not swayed in the course of a half hour on most things --- especially things like the death penalty (I suspect that most of the 13% abstaining didn't want to admit publicly to supporting it). And, while I did my best, I am not a hardcore proponent of the death penalty. I did lean pro-death penalty prior, and am a little more so after research and debate. But not adamantly so. 

The question was awkwardly-worded, in that the Pro side was actually against it, and the Con side (me) was actually for it. I think it would have been less confusing to have the Pro side be "for," and the Con side be "against," but I think the word choice shows implicit bias on the part of those choosing the topic (Pro got opening and closing statements). This caused some confusion among the audience while voting, and I simplified it by saying, "This one would be for Burkett" so people knew whom they were voting for. 

Pro's main points (based on my rebuttal notes) were:

1. Immoral

2. Racist results

3. U.S. is the only civilized country that still has it; other countries are reprehensible --- do we want to be in the same company?

4. Unconstitutional

5. Inadequate legal counsel biased against poor minorities

6. No deterrent at all

7. Death penalty costs much more than life in prison

8. Does not provide closure for victim families

9. Cannot ensure that innocent people aren't executed

My two cross-exam questions before my opening statement were:

1. Are there any people at all who deserve to die? Specifically, where there is no doubt in anyone's mind (including the accused) about guilt, and involving terrorism, mass murderers, rapist-murderers, contract killers, torture-murderers, vulnerable victim murderers, etc.? (Answer was "No one deserves to die; killing even worst-case scenarios makes us just as bad as they are"). 

2. Hypothetically, if your above objections could be fixed, would that change your stance at all (Answer was "No, because it would still be immoral").

Con's main points:

1. Basic justice --- not vengeance or revenge. 

2. Incapacitation: ensures that they will not kill again. Claimed 4.1% of "innocent" capital punishment victims matches percentage of life w/o parole prisoners who manage to kill again.

3. Deterrence: Actually does deter. All of the Pro side is based on social science, which is a "soft" science and not a "hard" science. This means that mathematical and statistical models are used in their arguments, and the numbers can be used to argue whatever one wants. Interviews with death row inmates themselves indicate that the threat and specter of death penalty has prevented them from committing other murders. One can use "soft" science math arguments to argue a deterrent effect.

4. "Racism" isn't borne out upon examination. 

5. Cost: Most of the exorbitant cost of death row is due to obstructions to death penalty, not the death penalty itself. Exorbitant cost of health care for death row and life w/o parole inmates is not included in the cost analysis by anti-death penalty advocates (now why would that be?). There is no question of guilt for the vast majority of death row inmates, yet they average 26 years on death row. This could be lowered to 6 years in cases where there is absolute certainty about guilt. 

6. Innocence: "Acquittal," "re-sentencing," or "simply let go" are better terms than "innocence" in all but a minute number of cases (exoneration). Advances in forensics have made it a near certainty that "gross miscarriage of justice" convictions will be minimized, if not outright eliminated. "The Myth of Innocents" (Northwestern Law School paper) shows that the vast majority of the 19 alleged "innocents" were actually changed from death to life (i.e., a re-sentencing, not being found "innocent"). These are due to technicalities, procedural problems, etc. --- not exoneration or "innocence."

7. Ironically, the truly innocent benefit from being on death row because of the scrutiny and appeals. This is where innocence will come out, if there is any, but life w/o parole does not have this scrutiny.

8. A common argument is "Life w/o parole is much worse than mere death. Let them suffer in prison!" But, what does life in prison look like in practice? The reality is that lifers get a clean slate in prison. The system doesn't care what they did --- all they care about is safety of the guards, safety of the inmates, and safety of the public. Those who behave themselves get perks and privileges, and lifers take advantage of this and build a new life for themselves. Softball, volleyball, first-release movies, and other recreation and comforts make life w/o parole a mockery for society and their victims.

Pro cross-exam:

"Are you saying there is an acceptable margin of error or risk? Isn't the possibility of even one error enough to get rid of the death penalty" (We accept acceptable risk all the time in life. We can't guarantee with certainty that this roof won't cave in on us, yet here we are. Our children might die in a car crash, yet we drive them in cars. None of us live our lives in a bubble because we can't guarantee safety or 100% success. The benefits accruing to society outweigh forgoing these benefits because of very small hypothetical chances of error."

"What if it were one of your children wrongly accused?" (I would still accept the consequences as necessary acceptable risk of living in civilized society)

A lot of the rebuttal material is included above. One point I brought up was that Europe (held up as an exemplar we should emulate) has horrifically unjust examples, such as the Norwegian who murdered 77 people, but could only get the maximum of 21 years. He will walk free, and has won a human rights judgment because his video game selection is substandard (he also has a TV, DVD player, and exercise equipment). 

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/04/21/475106186/norwegian-mass-killer-wins-human-rights-case-over-prison-conditions

All in all, it was a lot of fun, and a good event and experience for all involved.

[strappinglad]

" isn't the possibility of one error enough to get rid of the death penalty ?"   is a flawed argument as you pointed out . We take risks all the time. In the US about 80,000 people die every year due to errors in hospitals. By the argument presented, we should close all hospitals and stop all surgeries.

Any society that can find no justice in the legal system will soon seek justice from their own hands and chaos will prevail.

[MormonVideoGame]

On 3/9/2017 at 9:01 AM, rongo said:

All in all, it was a lot of fun, and a good event and experience for all involved.

How is death the worst punishment? If death is the worst punishment does that mean war heroes, victims, and others received the worst punishment too? Death penalty makes no sense. Life in prison is the true justice, 

[The Nehor]

On 3/9/2017 at 0:13 PM, strappinglad said:

" isn't the possibility of one error enough to get rid of the death penalty ?"   is a flawed argument as you pointed out . We take risks all the time. In the US about 80,000 people die every year due to errors in hospitals. By the argument presented, we should close all hospitals and stop all surgeries.

Any society that can find no justice in the legal system will soon seek justice from their own hands and chaos will prevail.

It also ignores reality a bit. We act like death is the only irreversible punishment. If I am unjustly imprisoned for 20 years and then released there is no way to restore those twenty years of freedom either. 

On 3/8/2017 at 1:32 PM, carbon dioxide said:

It is the worst punishment as they get torment in the spirit world without any lawyers appealing that the punishment is too extreme. While in prison, they get free meals, bed, healthcare, can socialize with fellow inmates.  Some occasionally get a vacation by escape.

By the logic of maximizing torment if you want to maximize their punishment you should keep them in prison so they suffer some and then when they die they still go to hell for, most likely, the same duration,

I also laughed at the idea that free meals, a bed, and the rest somehow make prison pleasant. It does make it more tolerable but I do not see a lot of people actively seeking it out. Even the destitute homeless do not actively seek out these 'luxuries' we supposedly coddle inmates with.

[carbon dioxide]

21 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I also laughed at the idea that free meals, a bed, and the rest somehow make prison pleasant. It does make it more tolerable but I do not see a lot of people actively seeking it out. Even the destitute homeless do not actively seek out these 'luxuries' we supposedly coddle inmates with.

Of course its not a 4 or 5 star hotel or even a 1 star but if you were to pass out cyanide pills to those who are sentenced to life in prison I bet very few would swallow it.  They rather be alive in prison than dead.

Edited March 11, 2017 by carbon dioxide

[Calm]

Depends if you gave them before or after being raped or beaten.

Edited March 11, 2017 by Calm

[MormonVideoGame]

On 3/11/2017 at 2:10 PM, carbon dioxide said:

  They rather be alive in prison than dead.

All prisoners? Some prisoners want death because prison is a nightmare, even for non-violent prisoners. 

Some prisoners don't want the death penalty because they are afraid of death or hell, that doesn't mean death is the worst punishment, it's nonsense. The victims received the worst punishment? War heroes that die receive the worst punishment?   

Edited March 13, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[MormonVideoGame]

To all those that think death is the worst thing. 

There is a Headache known as the Suicide Headache. 

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/844217 

[MormonVideoGame]

If there is an afterlife and a God of justice and mercy, the death penalty can help a violent criminal receive forgiveness in the afterlife. A God can tell him "You already paid for your crime". Do we really want the death penalty in the system?  

Edited March 13, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Calm]

6 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

If there is an afterlife and a God of justice and mercy, the death penalty can help a violent criminal receive forgiveness in the afterlife. A God can tell him "You already paid for your crime". Do we really want the death penalty in the system?  

Are you saying it is good or bad that they receive forgiveness.

[MormonVideoGame]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are you saying it is good or bad that they receive forgiveness.

some murderers only spend some years in prison before getting executed, I think they deserve more punishment than that. Not eternally, not even Hitler deserves eternal punishment.