carbon dioxide Posted March 5, 2017 Posted March 5, 2017 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: I disagree strongly with this. The victim or family of the victim are incredibly biased. Punishment should be based on justice, not bias. The ideal is objective, impartial justice. The reasons why people who have any connection to the alleged crime aren't allowed to be on the jury are the same reasons why people who have any connections to the crime shouldn't be involved in punishment, either. I would agree not to have any relatives on the jury in deciding guilt or innocence. One would not want bias in that. But the family should have a say in punishment IF the person is found guilty. I am not saying they should have the entire say. People would ask for punishments that are extreme but their views should be taken in account.
Okrahomer Posted March 5, 2017 Posted March 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Five Solas said: Lemme guess, you didn't vote for President Trump... ;0) --Erik PS. If so, please know that Utah isn't on your side (and most of the LDS posters on this forum live therein). PPS. Something tells me this may be my last post on this thread (and it won't be my choice). But this observation is worth making! :0) What exactly are you claiming here, Erik? if you are claiming that Utah is some sort of bastion of Trump support, please note that unlike heavily evangelical areas of the US, he did not win a majority in Utah (45.5%.) If voting for Trump somehow indicates folks don't believe in justice, then what are we to conclude about evangelicals who gave him 80% of their votes? 1
The Nehor Posted March 5, 2017 Posted March 5, 2017 52 minutes ago, Okrahomer said: If voting for Trump somehow indicates folks don't believe in justice, then what are we to conclude about evangelicals who gave him 80% of their votes? I would answer this question but: 3
bcuzbcuz Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 On 3/3/2017 at 4:36 PM, Bobbieaware said: For what it's worth, the following verses on this subject are from the Topical Guide. Whoso sheds man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed:Gen. 9:6; ( JST, Gen. 9:12–13; ) The murderer shall surely be put to death:Num. 35:16; Murderers who deliberately kill shall die:2 Ne. 9:35; Thou art condemned to die according to the law:Alma 1:13–14; He that murdered was punished unto death:Alma 1:18; The law requires the life of him who has murdered:Alma 34:12; He that kills shall die:D&C 42:19; Yeah, yeah. I've seen that before. Bumper sticker wisdom. "Kill them all, Let God sort them out." You can find scriptures that give the death penalty for breaking the sabbath, Exodus 31:14,Exodus 35:2, Numbers 15:32-36 . Or how about death to a "foreigner who gets close to the tabernacle, Numbers 1:51, Numbers 3:10 or Numbers 3:38. Blasphemy rates right up there as well. Do you also advocate death for Loss of virginity by a woman prior to marriage, to someone other than her husband while falsely representing herself as a virgin before the marriage ceremony, Deuteronomy 22:13-21?
Bobbieaware Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said: Yeah, yeah. I've seen that before. Bumper sticker wisdom. "Kill them all, Let God sort them out." You can find scriptures that give the death penalty for breaking the sabbath, Exodus 31:14,Exodus 35:2, Numbers 15:32-36 . Or how about death to a "foreigner who gets close to the tabernacle, Numbers 1:51, Numbers 3:10 or Numbers 3:38. Blasphemy rates right up there as well. Do you also advocate death for Loss of virginity by a woman prior to marriage, to someone other than her husband while falsely representing herself as a virgin before the marriage ceremony, Deuteronomy 22:13-21? Prior to my post, this thread had all sorts of personal opinions focusing on whether or not the death penalty is a moral form of punishment, but, as far as I could tell, not a single poster attempted to broaden the discussion by referring to what the scriptures have to say on the subject. This is a discussion board that focuses on all things Mormon, and, as you surely know, we Mormons are very big on searching the Standard Works as a divinely-approved means to gain insight into God's will on many important subjects. So to broaden the discussion from an LDS perspective, I inserted the opinions of the Lord and his prophets on the subject of capital punishment. The death penalties associated with the law of Moses were given because the rebellious children of Israel rejected the law of the Gospel and proved to be utterly incapable of choosing the right without there being very harsh penalties for sin that would keep them in constant remembrance of the destructiveness and great seriousness of sin. Nevertheless, in our dispensation the Lord endorsed the death penalty for murder in Doctrine & Covenants 42. Edited March 6, 2017 by Bobbieaware 2
Storm Rider Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 On 3/2/2017 at 5:41 PM, rongo said: I was just asked by our high school's JSA club to debate a really sharp faculty member next Wednesday night in the lecture hall, with $3-$5 tickets sold. Knowing the colleague, I'm probably going to have my head handed to me (he's really sharp). I am supposed to take the negative side of the question "Should the death penalty be abolished?" (In other words, I'm supposed to argue in favor of it). I actually don't have strong feelings on this subject. I think my views on this subject have become a little more liberal over the years, but I'm not rabidly anti-death penalty. Off the top of my head, the arguments in favor of it are: 1) Deterrent effect (questionable, in my opinion) 2) Satisfaction and retribution for victim families (what I suspect is the main reason for it, whether people want to admit it or not) Arguments opposed would be: 1) Morally wrong 2) Ineffective I'm sure some here have given this a lot more thought (or feel much more strongly about it). What are the strongest points on both sides of the question? Good studies or resources? Since they're charging admission, I think they want this to be something better than amateur night at the high school. I'm flattered and honored that they asked me to go up against this colleague. Any expertise or opinions from anyone here are very welcome! No, I'm not going to get into blood atonement, but what is everyone's sense of where most LDS come down on this? I would think that a majority of U.S. LDS support it, but not fervently. I would think that LDS outside of the U.S. oppose it, as much of the world thinks it is barbaric. Just curious. Thanks in advance! Rongo, Interesting question or topic for debate. Let us know the results of the evening, please. Just curious, the deterrent effect is, imho, difficult to define based on analysis. For example, have you seen any work on the deterrent effect when the death penalty is implemented quickly? I would like to see the effect of such versus the implementation of the death penalty in the US where it takes years before it is actually implemented. I wonder what the impact of the death penalty based on those communites governed by Isis, or Saudi Arabia or other nations/govenments (I am not equating ISIS with SA) versus other nations that may have a death penalty but the process is so drawn out that the impact is determined to be zero. I have not seen such an analysis, but would really think it would be revealing. Morality is subjective and leads to different answers based on different societies. If morality is relative what is the value? Blood atonement? I don't see an application here; certainly not for LDS of the last one hundred years. 1
MormonVideoGame Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 On 3/2/2017 at 11:37 PM, carbon dioxide said: What if the evidence is not disputed by anyone that they are guilty? In these cases and they do exist, no innocent life is being taken. but the worst punishment is life in prison, not the death penalty. The death penalty only ends the suffering. Many mass-shooters end up shooting themselves, so how can death be the worst punishment? Many muslim extremists want to be martyrs, how is the death penalty a punishment for them? US soldiers die in war, how is death by capital punishment different? The Death Penalty is also extremely expensive. there are thousands of other problems with the Death Penalty. The Death Penalty makes no sense at all.
The Nehor Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 14 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: Prior to my post, this thread had all sorts of personal opinions focusing on whether or not the death penalty is a moral form of punishment, but, as far as I could tell, not a single poster attempted to broaden the discussion by referring to what the scriptures have to say on the subject. This is a discussion board that focuses on all things Mormon, and, as you surely know, we Mormons are very big on searching the Standard Works as a divinely-approved means to gain insight into God's will on many important subjects. So to broaden the discussion from an LDS perspective, I inserted the opinions of the Lord and his prophets on the subject of capital punishment. The death penalties associated with the law of Moses were given because the rebellious children of Israel rejected the law of the Gospel and proved to be utterly incapable of choosing the right without there being very harsh penalties for sin that would keep them in constant remembrance of the destructiveness and great seriousness of sin. Nevertheless, in our dispensation the Lord endorsed the death penalty for murder in Doctrine & Covenants 42. Scriptures like this are why I have no moral objection to the death penalty. However the Church is neutral on laws allowing or forbidding capital punishment and when deciding whether it should be used I think we need to look as to whether it is applied justly and evenly to offenders and whether it is used with restraint and deference to how serious a matter it is. Here is a governor being questioned about having overseen more executions then any other governor in modern history: The crowd cheers as if executions are a laudable goal worthy of praise. There is something sick about that and people who cheer on record execution numbers should (in my not so humble opinion) not be trusted with this power or to select leaders who may want to increase executions to win votes. The fact that we elect many of our judges and that elected judges are shown to be harsher during election years is horrifying enough without selecting our leaders for their execution counts on top of that. 1
Bobbieaware Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, The Nehor said: Scriptures like this are why I have no moral objection to the death penalty. However the Church is neutral on laws allowing or forbidding capital punishment and when deciding whether it should be used I think we need to look as to whether it is applied justly and evenly to offenders and whether it is used with restraint and deference to how serious a matter it is. Here is a governor being questioned about having overseen more executions then any other governor in modern history: The crowd cheers as if executions are a laudable goal worthy of praise. There is something sick about that and people who cheer on record execution numbers should (in my not so humble opinion) not be trusted with this power or to select leaders who may want to increase executions to win votes. The fact that we elect many of our judges and that elected judges are shown to be harsher during election years is horrifying enough without selecting our leaders for their execution counts on top of that. If you have no moral objection to capital punishment, why are you horrified when convicted first-degree murderers are executed and some people make it known they approve of the executions the guilty? The audience in the video was represented by a large number of the kind of people who value the sacredness of human life -- whether born or unborn -- and are pleased when those who don't value sacred human life (cold-blooded, premeditated murderers) are punished in a manner that acknowledges that sacred value and the reasonable demands of God's justice. The applause was given primarily in appreciation for a state government that acknowledges the eternal value of innocent human life and the need to acknowledge, uphold and defend it; the applause was not given because the vast majority of those who cheered take sadistic delight in administering death. Edited March 7, 2017 by Bobbieaware
The Nehor Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: If you have no moral objection to capital punishment, why are you horrified when convicted first-degree murderers are executed and some people make it known they approve of the executions the guilty? The audience in the video was represented by a large number of the kind of people who value the sacredness of human life -- whether born or unborn -- and are pleased when those who don't value sacred human life (cold-blooded, premeditated murderers) are punished in a manner that acknowledges that sacred value and the reasonable demands of God's justice. The applause was given primarily in appreciation for a state government that acknowledges the eternal value of innocent human life and the need to acknowledge, uphold and defend it; the applause was not given because the vast majority of those who cheered take sadistic delight in administering death. Because even if you approve of capital punishment cheering and applause for its use is wrong. They were not just applauding because there was capital punishment but because he won and executed more than anyone else. Also wrong. People do not applaud at tools they dislike using like capital punishment but that might be necessary. If I was trapped on a mountain and ended up eating a dead companion it might have been necessary and not wrong but anyone who applauded my cannibalism is one sick puppy. That room was full of sick puppies. 1
Ahab Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 59 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Because even if you approve of capital punishment cheering and applause for its use is wrong. They were not just applauding because there was capital punishment but because he won and executed more than anyone else. Also wrong. People do not applaud at tools they dislike using like capital punishment but that might be necessary. If I was trapped on a mountain and ended up eating a dead companion it might have been necessary and not wrong but anyone who applauded my cannibalism is one sick puppy. That room was full of sick puppies. I object to you calling them sick "puppies". You are slandering puppies. Cute little dogs that can't even bite very well yet. Sick people, though. Yes, definitely. There are too many sick people in this world.
Bobbieaware Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Because even if you approve of capital punishment cheering and applause for its use is wrong. They were not just applauding because there was capital punishment but because he won and executed more than anyone else. Also wrong. People do not applaud at tools they dislike using like capital punishment but that might be necessary. If I was trapped on a mountain and ended up eating a dead companion it might have been necessary and not wrong but anyone who applauded my cannibalism is one sick puppy. That room was full of sick puppies. What do you think when liberal politicians receive thunderous applause when they proudly proclaim their support unlimited abortion rights? Edited March 7, 2017 by Bobbieaware
thesometimesaint Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 22 minutes ago, Ahab said: I object to you calling them sick "puppies". You are slandering puppies. Cute little dogs that can't even bite very well yet. Sick people, though. Yes, definitely. There are too many sick people in this world. There are plenty of people who cheer on the killing of "sick" people. “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien,
Ahab Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: There are plenty of people who cheer on the killing of "sick" people. “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The guy who wrote the Hobbit was against the idea of putting people to death in some cases? I don't think so. I think maybe he didn't mean what you think he meant. Maybe he just meant not to be too eager to do it.
thesometimesaint Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 As I get older and perhaps not as wise. I see the wisdom in not cheering on death
Ahab Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: As I get older and perhaps not as wise. I see the wisdom in not cheering on death I like to look forward to it for myself, though. Death is like going through a door and the other side is a better place than it is here for most, if not all, people. 1
thesometimesaint Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 ears ago I was giove 3 1 minute ago, Ahab said: I like to look forward to it for myself, though. Death is like going through a door and the other side is a better place than it is here for most, if not all, people. Death comes to us all. There is no need to cheer it on. Five years ago I was given three years to live. I accepted it, but I am thankful for the extra time I've been given.
Ahab Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 1 minute ago, thesometimesaint said: ears ago I was giove 3 Death comes to us all. There is no need to cheer it on. Five years ago I was given three years to live. I accepted it, but I am thankful for the extra time I've been given. I will be sad when you go and I can't talk to you as much as I can now. But on the other hand I will be looking forward to joining you and cheering when I see you.
thesometimesaint Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 1 minute ago, Ahab said: I will be sad when you go and I can't talk to you as much as I can now. But on the other hand I will be looking forward to joining you and cheering when I see you. A glorious reunion is what keeps me going.
The Nehor Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: What do you think when liberal politicians receive thunderous applause when they proudly proclaim their support unlimited abortion rights? If someone announced how many abortions were performed last year and they applauded that number as something to be proud of that would make me equally sick. I dislike your scenario but I am not unequivocally opposed to abortion. Edited March 7, 2017 by The Nehor 2
Rivers Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 I'm in favor of the death penalty in principle. I believe that it demonstrates intolerance of evil.
bcuzbcuz Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 15 hours ago, Ahab said: I like to look forward to it for myself, though. Death is like going through a door and the other side is a better place than it is here for most, if not all, people. That's obviously your opinion, but apart from quoting scripture do you have any tangible proof that your imagined world after death has any validity?
bcuzbcuz Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 20 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: If you have no moral objection to capital punishment, why are you horrified when convicted first-degree murderers are executed and some people make it known they approve of the executions the guilty? The audience in the video was represented by a large number of the kind of people who value the sacredness of human life -- whether born or unborn -- and are pleased when those who don't value sacred human life (cold-blooded, premeditated murderers) are punished in a manner that acknowledges that sacred value and the reasonable demands of God's justice. The applause was given primarily in appreciation for a state government that acknowledges the eternal value of innocent human life and the need to acknowledge, uphold and defend it; the applause was not given because the vast majority of those who cheered take sadistic delight in administering death. Do you have an opinion about capital punishment being administered by an inert gas? An asphyxiant gas, such as pure nitrogen, helium, neon, argon, sulfur hexafluoride, methane, or any other physiologically inert gas(es), will cause death within a few breaths, without the victim being aware or in pain. These gases replace the oxygen and the body does not react, such as through carbon dioxide asphyxiation.
Ahab Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 5 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said: That's obviously your opinion, but apart from quoting scripture do you have any tangible proof that your imagined world after death has any validity? Get real. What do you think I could do to show you the world(s) that exist where people live after they die. Oh, wait a sec, this world is an example. That was easy.
Sleeper Cell Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 On Monday, March 06, 2017 at 1:32 PM, MormonVideoGame said: but the worst punishment is life in prison, not the death penalty. The death penalty only ends the suffering. Many mass-shooters end up shooting themselves, so how can death be the worst punishment? Many muslim extremists want to be martyrs, how is the death penalty a punishment for them? US soldiers die in war, how is death by capital punishment different? The Death Penalty is also extremely expensive. there are thousands of other problems with the Death Penalty. The Death Penalty makes no sense at all. The worst punishment is life in prison? That, no doubt, explains why very few on death row appeal their death sentences. It also explains why very few accused murderers accept plea bargains to avoid the death penalty. Oh, wait … The death penalty is extremely expensive? As compared to the price paid by murder victims and their families? Do you really believe that seeking justice should primarily be a matter of dollars and cents? BTW, isn’t most of the expense due to the constant appeals made by those on death row -- appeals that presumably they would not be making had they been given the “harsher” sentence of “life without parole?” US soldiers die in war, how is death by capital punishment different? Are you serious? Do you have any idea how deeply offensive this is to those whose loved ones have given their lives in defense of our country? The kindest thing I can say about your post is that it makes no sense at all.
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