stemelbow Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 1 minute ago, Jeanne said: Exactly. My post above explains that what matters to me..may not matter to someone else. But no one but me can determine what is important....to me. that's the thing with life. What works for one doesn't work for another in some cases. Our perspectives and circumstances provide us enough uniqueness and individuality that we need to rely on another to tell us what pieces of the world are needed for our individual continuance. Ah I can go on forever about this...but I'm glad you agree. 1
JAHS Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 5 hours ago, Tacenda said: What if we compare it to buying a used car, would you want to know what was broken on it or the repairs it needed, but in this case if it had been in a flood? These give insight into what the person is buying. Buyer Beware policy. Our eyes should be wide open into what we're getting into. If the church's doctrine isn't provided and someone bases their information on being saved by Christ's atonement, even thinking they'll live with God again. Won't they feel a little deceived if after they commit and become baptised they're told they must take out endowments and make promises before being able to live with God again and it's not the "Christian" church they thought they were joining after all, as far as the rest of the Christians in the world believe? Since he or she may not have heard/read President Hinckley say we believe in a different Jesus? Not a relevant analogy. This car you are talking about (the church) does not have any broken parts that would make it undriveable. It can still get you the highest kingdom of God in the next life. I have test driven other religions and can conclude the LDS church is the best car on the market by far. If a member studies the gospel in the right way learning line upon line as the scriptures say and obtaining a knowledge and testimony of those basic doctrines, they will be able to see how the more advanced doctrines fit in to the entire picture. If a person is just looking for another "Christian" church and the Jesus those others believe in, then what's the point of looking around for something more than what they already have?
thesometimesaint Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 13 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Agreed, Context is important...so in the context of forming an opinion on the truth claim of Mormonism...should members and investigators only be exposed to faith promoting truths that would cause them to conclude that the church is what it claims to be? Believe me, there are plenty of idea's out there concerning the Church. You'd have to be living under a rock not to know them. We can't stop them from being available. IE; I recently bought a new car(A Ford Fusion). I know other cars are available, and some of the good and bad points of them. What I didn't do is go the the Ford dealer for his idea's about a Chevy.
Johnnie Cake Posted March 2, 2017 Author Posted March 2, 2017 6 minutes ago, JAHS said: It can still get you the highest kingdom of God in the next life. I have test driven other religions and can conclude the LDS church is the best car on the market by far. Well that's the claim at least...but if that seemingly new car was subjected to flood damage that would impact its ability to get you to your destination...wouldn't you want to know it before you buy your celestial car? 1
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 17 minutes ago, JAHS said: Not a relevant analogy. This car you are talking about (the church) does not have any broken parts that would make it undriveable. It can still get you the highest kingdom of God in the next life. I have test driven other religions and can conclude the LDS church is the best car on the market by far. If a member studies the gospel in the right way learning line upon line as the scriptures say and obtaining a knowledge and testimony of those basic doctrines, they will be able to see how the more advanced doctrines fit in to the entire picture. If a person is just looking for another "Christian" church and the Jesus those others believe in, then what's the point of looking around for something more than what they already have? Well, as long as the car salesperson is upfront and honest at the beginning so the investigator knows what belonging to the church is about. Not line upon line because then they will feel sideswiped. Like I did, being married in the temple for over 30 years now. I wasn't told I am to be a Goddess or live polygamy in the hereafter before I entered the temple. I should have been told this, even as an eight year old child, I wasn't told what I was getting into.
CA Steve Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Believe me, there are plenty of idea's out there concerning the Church. You'd have to be living under a rock not to know them. We can't stop them from being available. IE; I recently bought a new car(A Ford Fusion). I know other cars are available, and some of the good and bad points of them. What I didn't do is go the the Ford dealer for his idea's about a Chevy. Some years ago, before the internet, I was in the market for a travel trailer. The floor plan I wanted was manufactured by several different makers, so there were lots of options. As I visited each dealer, one question I asked was, "If you were to recommend a manufacture besides yours, whose would it be?" Back then that was a good way to get information. Now days the internet is usually the best source. The information from those travel trailer dealers was critical to selecting the brand most of those dealers recommended. Now when I buy cars I often used the same approach just to get a back up opinion from research done on the net. "Hey I really like the Chevys but I am also thinking about these models from Ford, VW and Nissan. Of those three which ones do you like and which ones do you think have problems?" You can get an amazing amount of information that way when you compare answers. A car that consistently shows up 2nd on a list is probably the one to go with.
Rain Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 43 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Fair point. But I think the mere fact that a person has the knowledge and information upon which they can utilize their agency, is key. It could be argued that a person's agency is limited or even subsumed by an entity that willingly keeps information from the individual. How could I choose properly between X, Y, or Z if I don't even know Y exists? God's plan depends on agency and the idea that we are all actors, not objects to be acted upon. When someone else (person or organization) makes decisions about what I can or cannot know they are restricting my agency and I am merely being acted upon even if I feel confident in my choice of Z over X. 41 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: But with Christ there is no harm in the truth. He said that the truth will liberate us. This is where line upon line comes in. If you know 99 true, but negative things about the church and only 1 true thing you may use your agency to decide against it, then it also restricts your agency and it definitely hasn't set you free. It's impossible for us to gather all information about just Joseph Smith, even if it were available, and still live our own lives. Then to add all the other prophets etc you would have to live multiple lives to get it all in. So somewhere we have to do it line upon line. As a teacher I am concerned with our end goals. With my limited time I need to share things that will help my students reach that goal. It is not limiting their agency if I don't teach something that will not help them accomplish it. Sometimes that means we do teach about Fanny, especially if it will be a sticking point for them in the future, but if the church is the way back to God then keeping all my time on things like Fanny will also limit their agency and will probably stop their progression. There has to be a balance. The hard part is figuring out what that balance is for each person.
JAHS Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 7 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Well, as long as the car salesperson is upfront and honest at the beginning so the investigator knows what belonging to the church is about. Not line upon line because then they will feel sideswiped. Like I did, being married in the temple for over 30 years now. I wasn't told I am to be a Goddess or live polygamy in the hereafter before I entered the temple. I should have been told this, even as an eight year old child, I wasn't told what I was getting into. Where did you get that Idea? You will not have to live the doctrine of plural marriage if you don't want to. And what's so wrong about being a Goddess?
JAHS Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: Well that's the claim at least...but if that seemingly new car was subjected to flood damage that would impact its ability to get you to your destination...wouldn't you want to know it before you buy your celestial car? Well I have't noticed any flood damage yet in the 64 years I have been a member. If you are really that worried about it sell the car and buy another one. This really is not a proper analogy. Edited March 2, 2017 by JAHS
Johnnie Cake Posted March 2, 2017 Author Posted March 2, 2017 Thanks for the conversation...but its beautiful outside and I'm going skiing...have a good day without me. 1
thesometimesaint Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 11 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Some years ago, before the internet, I was in the market for a travel trailer. The floor plan I wanted was manufactured by several different makers, so there were lots of options. As I visited each dealer, one question I asked was, "If you were to recommend a manufacture besides yours, whose would it be?" Back then that was a good way to get information. Now days the internet is usually the best source. The information from those travel trailer dealers was critical to selecting the brand most of those dealers recommended. Now when I buy cars I often used the same approach just to get a back up opinion from research done on the net. "Hey I really like the Chevys but I am also thinking about these models from Ford, VW and Nissan. Of those three which ones do you like and which ones do you think have problems?" You can get an amazing amount of information that way when you compare answers. A car that consistently shows up 2nd on a list is probably the one to go with. I joined the Church in 1971. Long before the internet was dream in Steve Jobs mind. Nothing I've heard or read so far since then has seriously adversely effected my decision.
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 14 minutes ago, JAHS said: Where did you get that Idea? You will not have to live the doctrine of plural marriage if you don't want to. And what's so wrong about being a Goddess? I remember hearing about being a Goddess, maybe a leader let it slip, once or twice during all those years and even as a TBM it didn't sit well with me. I've always been fine with being an angel, and that is what we're told we will be according to the Bible. And truly, if we're being honest, at one time in the church doctrine, you do have to live polygamy in order to reach God/Goddess status. Surely you've seen this doctrine JAHS.
rongo Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 11 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: I joined the Church in 1971. Long before the internet was dream in Steve Jobs Al Gore's mind. Fixed it . . .
JAHS Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 8 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I remember hearing about being a Goddess, maybe a leader let it slip, once or twice during all those years and even as a TBM it didn't sit well with me. I've always been fine with being an angel, and that is what we're told we will be according to the Bible. And truly, if we're being honest, at one time in the church doctrine, you do have to live polygamy in order to reach God/Goddess status. Surely you've seen this doctrine JAHS. I have seen some quotes from early church leaders who were telling members at that time that they had to accept the doctrine of plural marriage, which is still true today, but we don't have to practice the doctrine if we don't want to. Elder Milton R Hunter said the following: "The crowning Gospel ordinance requisite for Godhood is celestial marriage. The doctrine of celestial marriage, as taught and practiced in the Church of Jesus Christ today, means temple marriage. It does not necessarily mean plural marriage, as some are prone to believe, although at times in Gospel history plural marriage has been included in the law of celestial marriage." (GOSPEL THROUGH THE AGES by Milton R. Hunter) For us at this time it does not include plural marriage. Oh. and don't call me Shirley 1
thesometimesaint Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 20 minutes ago, rongo said: Fixed it . . . Not really. Al Gore did provide the funding for ARPANET to establish the legal framework for the Internet. SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore_and_information_technology
Jeanne Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 Crap...you are always doing fun things..enjoy your day..I have always had this weird fear of breaking my ankles..it is embarrassing to be from Utah and never been on skis..!
thesometimesaint Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 29 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I remember hearing about being a Goddess, maybe a leader let it slip, once or twice during all those years and even as a TBM it didn't sit well with me. I've always been fine with being an angel, and that is what we're told we will be according to the Bible. And truly, if we're being honest, at one time in the church doctrine, you do have to live polygamy in order to reach God/Goddess status. Surely you've seen this doctrine JAHS. It is the Bible that give us the assurance that we will be like God. If you are fine with it what's your complaint? You're getting the intents of your heart. No you don't have to live it in this life, but if you want to be like God, and if he asks you to in the next, you can still refuse. God won't force you to be with him.
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: It is the Bible that give us the assurance that we will be like God. If you are fine with it what's your complaint? You're getting the intents of your heart. No you don't have to live it in this life, but if you want to be like God, and if he asks you to in the next, you can still refuse. God won't force you to be with him. The God of the Bible doesn't mention living polygamy in order to be with him anywhere in the Bible.
thesometimesaint Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 Polygamy in the Bible. SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy_in_Christianity
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 7 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Polygamy in the Bible. SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy_in_Christianity He mentions that one must live polygamy in order to live with Him? CFR
thesometimesaint Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 48 minutes ago, Tacenda said: He mentions that one must live polygamy in order to live with Him? CFR Polygamy is all through the Bible, and it was accounted as worthiness to them. Monogamy is the default position of Bible and LDS Scriptures, but there are plenty of times when polygamy was practiced among a select few.
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 6 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Polygamy is all through the Bible, and it was accounted as worthiness to them. Monogamy is the default position of Bible and LDS Scriptures, but there are plenty of times when polygamy was practiced among a select few. Can you quote where the Bible mentions polygamy is needed to live with God? 1
thesometimesaint Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 It mentions neither polygamy nor monogamy as a requirement.
JAHS Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: Polygamy is all through the Bible, and it was accounted as worthiness to them. Monogamy is the default position of Bible and LDS Scriptures, but there are plenty of times when polygamy was practiced among a select few. Can you quote where the Bible mentions polygamy is needed to live with God? I just noticed something. The entire temple ceremony, also a requirement for exaltation and Godhood, is also not mentioned in the Bible! Whatever shall we do?
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 6 minutes ago, JAHS said: I just noticed something. The entire temple ceremony, also a requirement for exaltation and Godhood, is also not mentioned in the Bible! Whatever shall we do? Well, TSS mentioned there was, I'm open to information.
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