Thinking Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 2 hours ago, cinepro said: I think most the stuff in the Gospel Topics Essays would fall under that umbrella in President Packer's scheme of things. It became necessary for me to reveal my unbelief to my family when my younger brother announced his upcoming temple marriage several years ago. I wasn't going to lie just to get a recommend. My parents pressed and I wrote them a letter detailing many of the issues. They took my letter to somebody with some authority in their area and he recorded a message to me that basically claimed that everything in my letter was false. Many of those things are now confirmed in the Essays. 1
Duncan Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 Just now, Thinking said: It became necessary for me to reveal my unbelief to my family when my younger brother announced his upcoming temple marriage several years ago. I wasn't going to lie just to get a recommend. My parents pressed and I wrote them a letter detailing many of the issues. They took my letter to somebody with some authority in their area and he recorded a message to me that basically claimed that everything in my letter was false. Many of those things are now confirmed in the Essays. you should record a message of your own and give it to the person that sent you a recording
Johnnie Cake Posted March 2, 2017 Author Posted March 2, 2017 7 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: But we're not talking about them. We're talking about: are these true facts useful to you? That may be what you're talking about but it's not what this thread is about. Re read the OP where I ask the question..."what things that are true are not useful". I've shown you in the examples that you provided that although not useful to me, the examples you gave are in fact useful to some impacted by the truth. And I think that is the point of this thread. Truth that some find not useful could be useful to someone else who formed conclusions based on only partial information or by not having the entire truth. president packer finds some truths unuseful because they may lead some to form a conclusion that he doesn't approve of. So he finds that truth unuseful...but to the person who has the truth withheld they may very well find that same truth both critical and useful.
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 18 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: I believe Pres Packer was referring to ... truths that are critical in forming an opinion which could lead some to a conclusion he might not like and therefore that made that truth unhelpful. You still haven't provided the details about your past Mothers Day lunches, Johnnie. What are you hiding? What conclusions are you afraid we might reach?
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 9 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: So he finds that truth unuseful...but to the person who has the truth withheld they may very well find that same truth both critical and useful. Excellent point! I also want you BMI, your total income (both gross and net), and, since you're an American, the total amount you will claim on this year's tax return for charitable contributions. I can assure you that I will find these data useful.
Johnnie Cake Posted March 2, 2017 Author Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, ksfisher said: If the church doesn't teach a non useful truth, is the church hiding that truth from members? Or is it just choosing to teaching something else (which is equally true)? What the church may believe is an unuseful truth, because it doesn't promote faith, may be quite useful to a member or an investigator searching for truth. Particularly if the so called unuseful truth is withheld and would have led the member or investigator to form a conclusion that that church does not want them to form. I guess an unuseful truth is in the eye of who is being benefited by the withholding of that truth Edited March 2, 2017 by Johnnie Cake 1
bluebell Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 40 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: that throws LDS scholarship and apologetics under the bus. No it doesn't. 1
MormonVideoGame Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, bluebell said: No it doesn't. Elder Packer said, "there is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not. Some things that are true are not very useful." How is Elder Packer not throwing apologetics and LDS scholarship under the bus? Did you know Elder Packer wasn't enthusiastic about the Gospel Topic essays? Edited March 2, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
Johnnie Cake Posted March 2, 2017 Author Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, rodheadlee said: The Carter Catastrophe ? Do you think it's good science and true? I don't think it's very useful. No I don't think it's good science but we all have to die sometime, right? Edited March 2, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
Johnnie Cake Posted March 2, 2017 Author Posted March 2, 2017 20 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: You still haven't provided the details about your past Mothers Day lunches, Johnnie. What are you hiding? What conclusions are you afraid we might reach? Help me understand how the "details" of my past mother day lunches have any baring to this thread? I think you've misunderstood thinking that all withheld truth has equal status. It does not. Details of my lunch will not can not impact you or your life. While an inconvenient truth critical in forming a decision might very well impact the course of your life...so how do the details of my lunch impact your life? 1
sjdawg Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) How useful a truth is completely depends on the context of what you are trying to do. I don't find knowing Johnnie Cake's BMI particularly useful but I suspect his Dr. does. I don't need to know Johnnie Cake's income but I bet his accountant does. If I am investigating the church and being asked to make "eternal" commitments then I want to know as much as I can about the "truth" of the Church. I want to know how it came about. I want to understand its history. Withholding or distorting facts because they might not be "useful" to the goal of baptizing me is dishonest. Edited March 2, 2017 by sjdawg 1
Johnnie Cake Posted March 2, 2017 Author Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Excellent point! I also want you BMI, your total income (both gross and net), and, since you're an American, the total amount you will claim on this year's tax return for charitable contributions. I can assure you that I will find these data useful. I assure you I'm very wealthy and healthy Edited March 2, 2017 by Johnnie Cake 1
MormonVideoGame Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: So said Boyd K. Packer. I have a better question, what is "advance history"? and why exactly is "advance history" a threat to faith? Isn't the Holy Ghost more powerful? "One who chooses to follow the tenets of his profession, regardless of how they may injure the Church or destroy the faith of those not ready for “advanced history,” is himself in spiritual jeopardy" https://www.lds.org/manual/teaching-seminary-preservice-readings-religion-370-471-and-475/the-mantle-is-far-far-greater-than-the-intellect?lang=eng Edited March 2, 2017 by MormonVideoGame 1
Johnnie Cake Posted March 2, 2017 Author Posted March 2, 2017 President Packer believed that the withholding of truths that he didn't find useful in promoting faith should be withheld from church members and investigators. How does this have anything to do with my not sharing my income , bmi or donations to you, an anonymous internet poster? 1
MDalby Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 This thread reminds me of the talk from Elder Larsen in October 1987 General Conference In this talk Elder Larsen makes the following statement: Quote I am much more concerned about understanding the admonitions of Samuel the Lamanite as he stood on the walls of the city of Zarahemla and called the rebellious Nephites to repentance than I am about identifying the location of that city in today’s geography. I am more vitally interested in what the Father and the Son commissioned Joseph Smith to do, and the fruits of his prophetic labors, than I am in whether he made mention of one divine personage or two in his initial recounting of the First Vision. I am going to make a greater effort to be worthy of holding an ordained office in the priesthood of God, and be less concerned about confirming the exact date and place of the appearance of Peter, James, and John to restore this divine authority and power. 3
Johnnie Cake Posted March 2, 2017 Author Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, MDalby said: This thread reminds me of the talk from Elder Larsen in October 1987 General Conference In this talk Elder Larsen makes the following statement: And yet both of the examples Elder Larsen gave matter. If zarahemla never existed then Samuel was a fictional character...if Joseph lied about his experiences then how can we trust his other claims. So what Larsen dismissies as unimportant in fact is germane to Mormonisms truth claims. Larsen assumes these things actually happened...therefore his examples are unimportant to him. Another way to paraphrase his comments is to say..."the truth doesn't matter" or "what I believe is more important than what is true" Edited March 2, 2017 by Johnnie Cake 4
Thinking Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 I'm confident we all know what Elder Packer was and was not talking about when he said "some things that are true are not very useful." Any truth that is relevant to the truth claims of the LDS Church is useful in that context. However, some like to dance around the issue and imply that Elder Packer may have been talking about things like past Mothers Day lunches. 4
MDalby Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 Quote I know words carried by the gift of the Holy Ghost can bring to your understanding “the truth of all things.”4 All truth is worth knowing. Some truths are more useful, but there are truths that are most worth knowing. (Boyd K. Packer, CES Devotional, 6 Nov. 2011) 3
MDalby Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 Quote Not all truths are of equal value, nor are all scriptures of the same worth. (Ezra Taft Benson, CR, Oct 1984) 1
Johnnie Cake Posted March 2, 2017 Author Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, MDalby said: 😜 Edited March 2, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 36 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: I think you've misunderstood thinking that all withheld truth has equal status. It does not. Details of my lunch will not can not impact you or your life. That you are willing to decide on my behalf what truths are useful to me and which aren't has been duly noted. I sincerely doubt you would tolerate such presumption on the part of Church figures. 26 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: President Packer believed that the withholding of truths that he didn't find useful in promoting faith should be withheld from church members and investigators. How does this have anything to do with my not sharing my income , bmi or donations to you, an anonymous internet poster? You believe that some truths should be withheld too. No doubt you understand that I would use those truths to form opinions about you, and you don't want me to do that. You may even suspect that I could use those truths about you to construct a narrative that you would find unfair and incomplete, and you're exactly right! I assure you that I can -- and would -- do that. By the way, I'm glad you've been using the word withhold. Because of course, if you read Pres Packer's entire address to seminary teachers, his point was not for Church-employed teachers to hide facts from their students but rather to focus on teaching them matters of higher importance first so that they would have the necessary context into which to place all the facts. You did read that far, right? 2
Calm Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 51 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Help me understand how the "details" of my past mother day lunches have any baring to this thread? I think you've misunderstood thinking that all withheld truth has equal status. It does not. Details of my lunch will not can not impact you or your life. While an inconvenient truth critical in forming a decision might very well impact the course of your life...so how do the details of my lunch impact your life? Why can't you just trust him when he says it matters? 1
Johnnie Cake Posted March 2, 2017 Author Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: That you are willing to decide on my behalf what truths are useful to me and which aren't has been duly noted. I sincerely doubt you would tolerate such presumption on the part of Church figures. You believe that some truths should be withheld too. No doubt you understand that I would use those truths to form opinions about you, and you don't want me to do that. You may even suspect that I could use those truths about you to construct a narrative that you would find unfair and incomplete, and you're exactly right! I assure you that I can -- and would -- do that. By the way, I'm glad you've been using the word withhold. Because of course, if you read Pres Packer's entire address to seminary teachers, his point was not for Church-employed teachers to hide facts from their students but rather to focus on teaching them matters of higher importance first so that they would have the necessary context into which to place all the facts. You did read that far, right? So you're equating the details of my wife's Mother's Day lunch and the non impact those details have on your life with the withholding of truths found unuseful to the promoting of faith and belief in Mormonism by its leaders to whether those withheld truths could be useful to a member or investigator in being able to form a conclusion on Mormonism truth claims? oh brother. Get real Edited March 2, 2017 by Johnnie Cake 1
Johnnie Cake Posted March 2, 2017 Author Posted March 2, 2017 Just now, Calm said: Why can't you just trust him when he says it matters? Beside being ridiculous I've asked him to tell me how those detail would be important to him...he's embarked on a stupid illogical premise 1
MormonVideoGame Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 1 minute ago, Calm said: Why can't you just trust him when he says it matters? 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Excellent point! I also want you BMI, your total income (both gross and net), and, since you're an American, the total amount you will claim on this year's tax return for charitable contributions. I can assure you that I will find these data useful. Someone please answer my question What is "advance history"? and why exactly is "advance history" a threat to faith? Isn't the Holy Ghost more powerful? "One who chooses to follow the tenets of his profession, regardless of how they may injure the Church or destroy the faith of those not ready for “advanced history,” is himself in spiritual jeopardy" https://www.lds.org/manual/teaching-seminary-preservice-readings-religion-370-471-and-475/the-mantle-is-far-far-greater-than-the-intellect?lang=eng 1
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