smac97 Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 From USA Today (emphases added): Quote The Department of Homeland Security issued a sweeping set of orders Tuesday that implement President Trump's plan to increase immigration enforcement, placing the vast majority of the nation's 11 million undocumented immigrants at risk of deportation. The memos instruct all agents — including Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) — to identify, capture and quickly deport every undocumented immigrant they encounter. The memos require undocumented immigrants caught entering the country to be placed in detention until their cases are resolved, increase the ability of local police to help in immigration enforcement, call for the hiring of 10,000 more immigration agents and allow planning to begin on an expansion of the border wall between the United States and Mexico. The memos make undocumented immigrants who have been convicted of a crime the highest priority for enforcement operations. But they make clear that ICE agents should also arrest and initiate deportation proceedings against any other undocumented immigrant they encounter. "Department personnel have full authority to arrest or apprehend an alien whom an immigration officers has probable cause to believe is in violation of the immigration laws," one memo said. "They also have full authority to initiate removal proceedings against any alien who is subject to removal under any provision of the (Immigration and Nationality Act)." ... Immigration advocacy groups were crushed. Although Trump recently said his focus would be to deport undocumented immigrants with criminal histories or who pose a threat to national security, the new memos make clear that nearly all undocumented immigrants are at risk. "These memos lay out a detailed blueprint for the mass deportation of 11 million undocumented immigrants in America," said Lynn Tramonte, deputy director of America's Voice Educational Fund, which advocates on behalf of immigrants. "They fulfill the wish lists of the white nationalist and anti-immigrant movements and bring to life the worst of Donald Trump's campaign rhetoric." ... The orders also detail a broad plan to keep undocumented immigrants caught crossing the southwest border from making it to the interior of the U.S. They call for detaining all of them until their cases are resolved. Currently, many undocumented immigrants are processed by immigration agents, released into the country and ordered to reappear for court hearings. The memos seek to end that practice, known as “catch and release,” by ordering the construction of more jails along the southwest border to house detained immigrants until their cases are resolved. Here is a link to the actual DHS document. A few thoughts: 1. I am having a difficult time sorting out my feelings on this subject. I live in a neighborhood with many, many Hispanics. Our stake has a Spanish-speaking ward (the fastest-growing ward in the stake by a wide margin). I know and have affection for many people who I know are not in the U.S. legally. Our Spanish-speaking ward is probably 80% or more illegal/undocumented. My father was a branch president a few years ago, and he told me that about 75% of its members were illegal/undocumented, and that most of them were "wonderful people." That has been my experience as well. And yet... 2. ... I have read quite a bit about issues pertaining to unregulated "immigration" into the United States. Without going into specifics (as I don't want this thread to focus on the broader sociopolitical arguments pertaining to illegal/undocumented immigrants), I can see reasoned and principled arguments for strengthening border security. And yet ... 3. The scope of the above memo is huge. Consider this part of it: Quote "Department personnel have full authority to arrest or apprehend an alien whom an immigration officers has probable cause to believe is in violation of the immigration laws," one memo said. "They also have full authority to initiate removal proceedings against any alien who is subject to removal under any provision of the (Immigration and Nationality Act)." This sounds like a paradigm shift in how illegal/undocumented immigrants are going to be treated. For pretty much my entire adult life, it seems as if I've observed, more or less, a feeling of détente. Yes, there are hundreds, even thousands of illegal/undocumented immigrants all around my neighborhood, my community. The LDS Church has, for some years now, exhibited - as Ronald Mortensen put it - "{a} reluctance to clearly articulate its policy on illegal immigration." And to the extent it has signaled a position, it has been to endorse the Utah Compact, which, Mortensen correctly notes, "fails to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration." Anyway, I am concerned about the practical, real-world ramifications of this apparent paradigm shift. There are all sorts of circumstances where illegal/undocumented immigrants, who have lived and worked in the U.S. for many years, may end up getting the attention of ICE, which is apparently going to be going after both those with criminal backgrounds, but also "any alien who is subject to removal under any provision of the (Immigration and Nationality Act)." "Any alien." As in 80% or more of the members of the Spanish-speaking ward in my stake. So what are your thoughts? What impact will this have on the LDS Church in the U.S. and Mexico (and other Central/South American countries)? On its members in the U.S. who are illegal/undocumented? On the member families who have mixed citizenship (parents are here illegally, but children were born here, and hence have citizenship)? On the Spanish-speaking wards and branches? Will we see so-called "self-deportations" (members of the Church, recognizing their vulnerability to removal actions under the above memo, may choose to voluntarily return to their countries of origin rather than be forcibly repatriated)? I know this is a sensitive and difficult topic, so please do all you can to not indulge in political arguments as to the merits or flaws in the memo and the policies and politicians behind it. Instead, please focus on the topic at hand: the impact it could/will have on the LDS Church and its members. Thanks, -Smac 3
notHagoth7 Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 8 minutes ago, smac97 said: 1. I am having a difficult time sorting out my feelings on this subject. I'm not. For-profit prisons are an abomination to justice.
notHagoth7 Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Red flags should go up any time someone advocates a profit connection to incarceration And people wonder why the U.S. prison population has exploded while crime rates have generally dropped. 1
notHagoth7 Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 And then there are those in gov't who agree in writing with for-profit prison owners that they will be fed a fixed amount of warm bodies to occupy cells. it is an outrage. A travesty to justice. Such agreements should be rapidly sought out and countermanded, and those who agreed to such should be tried for failure to uphold their oath of office. A form of treason...essentially. Joseph had something to say on such matters.
Gray Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Dark days are upon us. Consider, many of these people have been here for years, and their children are US citizens. This will tear families apart.
smac97 Posted February 22, 2017 Author Posted February 22, 2017 40 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said: I'm not. For-profit prisons are an abomination to justice. Okay, but let's focus on the impact this new policy will have on the LDS Church and its members. Thanks, -Smac
carbon dioxide Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) I do have empathy for these people. Especially for the kids. But if deportations is not one of the tools to combat illegal immigration, why even have a border patrol? A border patrol/ICE without deportation is like taking away from the police the power to put someone in jail. They just become men and women in uniforms and nothing else. Edited February 22, 2017 by carbon dioxide 1
carbon dioxide Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, smac97 said: I know this is a sensitive and difficult topic, so please do all you can to not indulge in political arguments as to the merits or flaws in the memo and the policies and politicians behind it. Instead, please focus on the topic at hand: the impact it could/will have on the LDS Church and its members. It is hard to know. I don't think this will result in a massive deportations. We will see increased but I think the majority will not be affected. Edited February 22, 2017 by carbon dioxide
Duncan Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, Gray said: Dark days are upon us. Consider, many of these people have been here for years, and their children are US citizens. This will tear families apart. this very sad but true
notHagoth7 Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 25 minutes ago, smac97 said: Okay, but let's focus on the impact this new policy will have on the LDS Church and its members. ? Eye. Hand. I have paced in a small solitary cell for months on end. So I have learned to give a dann for others in similar settings. Let's please not presume that any other soul behind bars isn't one of us just because they didn't occupy the pew next to us the week prior. If this iunrolling injustice doesn't affect us profoundly, the church needs a heart transplant stat. 1
Calm Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) I am backing activist judges at this time. (Actually, I don't think a judge who rules against this needs to be such. It sounds way too broad to me, but I am not a lawyer.) I think the Church will be more active in encouraging people to stay home so as to avoid the turmoil and potential destruction of the family and possibly more helpful helping people jump through the legal hoops. Edited February 22, 2017 by Calm
Calm Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said: It is hard to know. I don't think this will result in a massive deportations. We will see increased but I think the majority will not be affected. Why make such a broad policy if there is no intent to invoke it? The broadness will result in abuse if not intended as such. (And is abuse imo if intended as such.) The prisons probably won't even be built by the time Trump is gone. Stir the pot, he doesn't care about the mess because it will be someone else cleaning it up while he goes around the nation getting paid big bucks to speak. It is unfortunate he can't be sued civilly for destroying people's lives. Might make him more cautious. Edited February 22, 2017 by Calm 1
Rajah Manchou Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Here's my take on it, as a Mormon. Israel is Zion for the Jews. America is Zion for the Lamanites. Memo Schmemo. Nobody with Native American blood is an "alien" in America. That's scripture.
PeterPear Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) So we should be upset that the current administration is now enforcing the law as intended; instead of the former administration which did not. I worked part time for a nationwide tax preparer some years back. In walked "hispanic" couples with two years of tax returns asking if they qualified for a tax rebate being handed out by the Govt. When I asked one couple why they had different SSNs on their two returns, they got up and left. Maybe the SSNs belonged to one of you. I met a young lady from the State of Chihuaha, Mexico, LDS; claimed her Father was a Stake Patriarch. When I jokingly asked if she were illegal, she got angry (she was). But she had a bank account, a drivers license, etc. Which part of being honest she would we ignore? Edited February 22, 2017 by PeterPear Typo
smac97 Posted February 22, 2017 Author Posted February 22, 2017 7 hours ago, notHagoth7 said: ? Eye. Hand. I have paced in a small solitary cell for months on end. So I have learned to give a dann for others in similar settings. Let's please not presume that any other soul behind bars isn't one of us just because they didn't occupy the pew next to us the week prior. I think you misunderstood my request. I was not questioning or denying the "soul{s} behind bars" being "one of us." Rather, I was attempting to avoid political arguments. This message board does not allow such. So my request to keep things focused on the memo's impact on the LDS Church and its members was intended to comply with board rules, and to keep the scope of the discussion relatively narrow. That's all. Thanks, -Smac 1
Gray Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 6 hours ago, PeterPear said: So we should be upset that the current administration is now enforcing the law as intended; instead of the former administration which did not. I worked part time for a nationwide tax preparer some years back. In walked "hispanic" couples with two years of tax returns asking if they qualified for a tax rebate being handed out by the Govt. When I asked one couple why they had different SSNs on their two returns, they got up and left. Maybe the SSNs belonged to one of you. I met a young lady from the State of Chihuaha, Mexico, LDS; claimed her Father was a Stake Patriarch. When I jokingly asked if she were illegal, she got angry (she was). But she had a bank account, a drivers license, etc. Which part of being honest she would we ignore? The last administration deported more illegal immigrants than any previous administration. But it was done with some common sense. You don't deport the soccer mom with three kids who are US citizens and currently in school. 4
The Nehor Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 11 hours ago, notHagoth7 said: I'm not. For-profit prisons are an abomination to justice. This needs to be shouted from the rooftops.
Buckeye Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, PeterPear said: So we should be upset that the current administration is now enforcing the law as intended; instead of the former administration which did not. I worked part time for a nationwide tax preparer some years back. In walked "hispanic" couples with two years of tax returns asking if they qualified for a tax rebate being handed out by the Govt. When I asked one couple why they had different SSNs on their two returns, they got up and left. Maybe the SSNs belonged to one of you. I met a young lady from the State of Chihuaha, Mexico, LDS; claimed her Father was a Stake Patriarch. When I jokingly asked if she were illegal, she got angry (she was). But she had a bank account, a drivers license, etc. Which part of being honest she would we ignore? We ignore lots of dishonest stuff. For instance, on my last youth temple trip, a few vehicles were speeding so that they could stop at a local "cheese barn." Nothing too major - about 10-15 MPH over the limit. But still dishonest. Yet the bishop didn't yank their temple recommends. So the question cannot merely be whether something is honest. The question is whether we care about the dishonesty and, if so, what should be the appropriate punishment. To the point of the OP, if the local Relief Society President is in the country illegally should she: (a) be executed, (b) be deported, (c) pay a fine, or (d) something else? And does the answer depend on how long she's been the country, whether she has children and family here, whether she has been otherwise law abiding, and so forth. Note that the church's guidance has not condoned illegal immigration. Rather, it has said that keeping families together is more important than strict border enforcement (at least that's my read). Edited February 22, 2017 by Buckeye 2
Buckeye Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 To answer the OP, a lot depends on how willing the DHS and local authorities are to cooperate with the new administration, but conceivably this could be a disaster for church members. If you can get picked up merely for being in the vicinity of someone who DHS is pursuing for even the remotest crime, it will be a challenge to do anything in public, including attending church functions. Under the new guidelines, DHS could enter sacrament meeting looking for Jose who has an outstanding parking ticket and end up interrogating everyone and deporting those who cannot establish residency. I'm dubious that DHS would actually target faith-based events for enforcement (the blowback would be huge), but there's been plenty of surprises lately. FWIW, I served my mission in the LA area 96-98. Most of the members were illegal, including leadership. Most of the people I taught were illegal. One of my fondest memories was teaching a guy who progressed towards baptism, got deported, and came back to LA to finish his lessons and get baptized. 2
The Nehor Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) On a personal note the kids I am advocating for who are currently on a CPS removal finally got placed with undocumented relatives supporting them and feeding them. If they are kicked out I get to watch their lives get uprooted again and get to experience more trauma. Kicking small children so our insecure leader can get his ego boost from morons cheering at his next rally about things no one at said rally understands like the ramifications and the human suffering involved is kind of obscene. Edited February 22, 2017 by The Nehor 4
Black Moclips Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 The church should support this new policy and help deport these people back to their home countries so that 1) the church can stay consistent with its scriptures regarding the Constitution and obeying the laws of the land, and 2) those illegal immigrants can spread the gospel in their home countries. Sounds like a win win.
Buckeye Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, Black Moclips said: The church should support this new policy and help deport these people back to their home countries so that 1) the church can stay consistent with its scriptures regarding the Constitution and obeying the laws of the land, and 2) those illegal immigrants can spread the gospel in their home countries. Sounds like a win win. You can't seriously think that the church endorsing this policy would benefit the church's proselyting efforts in latin america. As a former missionary in LA, I can tell you that missionaries already get confused with ICE agents all the time. We were called "la migra" about once a day. And about once a month people actively ran out of restaurants or stores when we entered. Add to that the recent MoTab backdrop for Trump's inauguration and I can 110% guarantee you that the church would not see an uptick in baptisms by approving of this new policy. Your best bet is to hope that the church stays neutral. But my guess is that if the new policies actually work - i.e., lead to lots of deportations and broken families - that the church will modestly oppose. 2
bluebell Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 These kinds of laws need to be enforced with an emphasis on mercy and not justice. Taking illegal but otherwise law abiding parents away from their citizen children is cruel. The foster care system is broken (the statistics of children's chances of being physically and sexually abused--as many as 75% of foster children are sexually abused--and neglected in foster care are staggering. 95% of kids in foster care won't even graduate high school and most have serious emotional and mental problems as adults) and putting kids in it under such circumstances is evil. It also weakens our country's future, seeing as how we all have to deal with these kids once they turn 18 and are kicked out of the system with psychological problems, no support system, and hardly any education or prospects to get it. 3
The Nehor Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 44 minutes ago, Black Moclips said: The church should support this new policy and help deport these people back to their home countries so that 1) the church can stay consistent with its scriptures regarding the Constitution and obeying the laws of the land, and 2) those illegal immigrants can spread the gospel in their home countries. Sounds like a win win. I am going to go with what God says through his apostles and prophets rather then a random member making suggestions based on their political views.
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