The Nehor Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 4 hours ago, Storm Rider said: I don't have a problem with any nation, Mexico included, to maintain/protect their borders. I don't have a problem with any nation enforcing their laws. I am very consistent in my position. I don't live in Utah and I don't celebrate Pioneer Day; however, I personally have never viewed Pioneer Day as a celebration about Brigham Young sending Mormons to Mexico and telling them to flout Mexican laws. Do you have a reference for such statements from him - just curious? He probably did not. He just flouted them to a degree. We do that a lot. I doubt Joseph Smith gave long sermons encouraging people to specifically violate anti-bigamy laws but he did encourage them to violate those laws.
Danzo Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 20 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said: You must have missed the part when I said the lady was married to an American man. So what you are saying is something like...if its too hard to get a visa to go live with your family in America DON'T GO! To use your house analogy, its rather like you aren't allowed to walk in the front door of your own home because you might be selling drugs, so better just go live somewhere else and stop complaining. But we'll be happy to take that $100 non-refundable visa application fee before you go. I highly suspect that those here who are the strongest defenders of the current immigration law have never had to personally deal with it. I think that they are mostly defending what they imagine the immigration law is. Those of us who know what the law really says could never defend it without taking a shower afterwords. 1
bsjkki Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 I did find a huge paradigm shift in the numbers (no numbers for Trump so everything is pure speculation). Obama did deport more illegal immigrants that were currently in the country but he did not enforce returns at our border. https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2015/table39
Ahab Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Danzo said: I highly suspect that those here who are the strongest defenders of the current immigration law have never had to personally deal with it. I think that they are mostly defending what they imagine the immigration law is. Those of us who know what the law really says could never defend it without taking a shower afterwords. Yeah I pity the people who have to deport illegal aliens simply because they are illegal, and for no other reason than that. But rules are rules, and jobs are jobs, and money is money.
notHagoth7 Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Ahab said: ...our President is the collective voice for all of us... Um, no. You forgot the rights of the states. And the other 2 branches of government. And the dying 4th estate. And especially the Right under the bill of rights for you and hundreds of millions others to speak *your* mind. And the fact that powers not granted to those branches belong to the people. And power to govern is merely on loan from the people...and can be retracted. He does *not* speak for me. Or for my neighbor. Abdicate that right, and you have tyranny. Do you seriously believe the things that come out of your mouth? Or are you playing the foil merely for sport?
Storm Rider Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 28 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said: You must have missed the part when I said the lady was married to an American man. So what you are saying is something like...if its too hard to get a visa to go live with your family in America DON'T GO! To use your house analogy, its rather like you aren't allowed to walk in the front door of your own home because you might be selling drugs, so better just go live somewhere else and stop complaining. But we'll be happy to take that $100 non-refundable visa application fee before you go. Rajah, gads talking about this topic is like playing with tar baby in Uncle Remus' tales. At no point, as in never, have I ever advocated that immigration laws so not need to be changed, improved, or monitored by intelligent officials. At no point have I ever advocated that that an honest marriage entered into freely by two people (and not engaged in as a sham to avoid immigration laws) where one is a citizen and one is a non-citizen should be ignored. I think that every effort should be made to facilitate the union of such a couple in our nation. I do advocate that no one is entitled to ignore the law simply because it is difficult. When we make choices of mates we accept the challenges that may go along with that union. Sometimes we get really atrocious family relationships and some times we get really challenging immigration policies. If you make the choice feel good about it. It may be easier - I doubt it, but I know it is possible - instead of choosing to live in the USA it is easier to live elsewhere. What price I we willing to pay for a choice? Don't whine about it after having made it that everyone else should change their policies to accommodate your situation because you don't want to suffer the consequences. I don't think your application to my analogy works. You took over a home in a planned community knowing that there were specific guidelines for what color you house could be painted. You want to ignore the guidelines and paint your home "shocking pink" and now you don't want to suffer the consequences of making a choice and now being forced to suffer the consequences. Not only will you be penalized, but you will be forced to repaint the home within the guidelines of the community. 2
Ahab Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said: Um, no. You forgot the rights of the states. And the other 2 branches of government. And the dying 4th estate. And especially the Right under the bill of rights for you and hundreds of millions others to speak *your* mind. And the fact that powers not granted to those branches belong to the people. And power to govern is merely on loan from the people...and can be retracted. He does *not* speak for me. Or for my neighbor. Abdicate that right, and you have tyranny. Do you seriously believe the things that come out of your mouth? Or are you playing the foil merely for sport? As I said, it works the same way in our Lord's Church, with the President of our Lord's Church speaking for the members of the Church, collectively, and for our Lord too. Not that everyone agrees with him, no, but he is the leading authority in the organized body of members/citizens and we sustain/uphold him in that position, generally. It's fairly obvious for all who can see, and the fact that he has some detractors hasn't gotten him kicked out of his office, yet.
Oliblish Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 My mission president was from Idaho and owned a potato farm. He would tell us stories about the migrant Mexican workers he would hire to work on the farm. He knew most of his workers didn't have the proper paperwork. This was in the early 80's and it was very common for Mexicans who needed work to cross the border illegally and work on farms. It was the only way the potato farms could operate. (I am not sure if this has changed much in recent years or not). For the most part the government would look the other way because it was a benefit to the economy, or perhaps for other reasons. I think it may be preferable if there were some sort of temporary worker program that would make this sort of arrangement legal, but sometimes the added bureaucracy makes things worse rather than better. There are lots of laws broken every day that are not enforced. I could probably be cited for dozens of traffic violations every time I drive to work. (Stopping a few inches past a stop sign, going 5 mph over the limit, etc.) Should a group of children running a lemonade stand be cited for operating a business without a license? They probably don't even have proper food handling permits. Are garage sales legal? Should they charge sales tax and report their income to the state? Do people pay the proper social security taxes and file the proper paperwork for babysitters, house cleaners, or yard workers? If I buy a bag of chips at a gas station in Nevada and then bring it to Utah, I am supposed to file and pay Utah use taxes. The list is endless. I don't think it is reasonable to suddenly change immigration enforcement and start to track down and deport people who have been in the country for years who came in at a time when the laws were widely unenforced. I think it is reasonable to make changes to the system, but it should be done in a thoughtful and deliberate way, taking into consideration the lives of the people who it will affect.
Storm Rider Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 25 minutes ago, The Nehor said: He probably did not. He just flouted them to a degree. We do that a lot. I doubt Joseph Smith gave long sermons encouraging people to specifically violate anti-bigamy laws but he did encourage them to violate those laws. Nehor, I try to live a balanced life and a fair one. I like to be treated fairly in the same manner that I try to treat others fairly. This entire topic is not conducive to rational, intelligent conversation. People go to extremes to prove a point rather than just talk about reality. I happen to believe in national borders, nation states, and their right to create their own laws to govern their nation. People in other nations may not like those laws, but that is irrelevant to me. As a nation continues to thrive it will find new and better ways of doing things; their laws will change and hopefully will become more fair. What I absolutely am against is for foreigners to illegally enter any country regardless of their reasoning. Yet, exceptions may be made, should be made when something cataclysmic has occurred - a great, natural calamity or a horrible war. Temporarily, these individuals may do whatever it takes to protect their families. These are times when bordering nations and global organizations should assist. However, it does not mean that things should change permanently. I want immigrants to continue to come to our country, but I want it to be legal and openly.
bsjkki Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 40 minutes ago, Danzo said: I don't think the current laws were ever designed to be broadly enforced. I think the president has the discretion on which laws to enforce and which laws not to enforce. I think strict enforcement of immigration laws would turn this country into a place that neither you nor I would want to live in. Enforcement will always, by necessity, be selective. The president already has the authority to not deport someone who has a deportation order against them. If the President can ignore laws passed by Congress and ignore court orders--the President is then only accountable to the people that elect him. Would you advocate that Trump ignore the 9th circuits order? The administration has argued judicial supremacy over powers granted to the executive branch does not exist. Do you then agree Trump has the right to halt all immigration and deport or allow to stay anyone he sees fit? 1
The Nehor Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 19 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Nehor, I try to live a balanced life and a fair one. I like to be treated fairly in the same manner that I try to treat others fairly. This entire topic is not conducive to rational, intelligent conversation. People go to extremes to prove a point rather than just talk about reality. I happen to believe in national borders, nation states, and their right to create their own laws to govern their nation. People in other nations may not like those laws, but that is irrelevant to me. As a nation continues to thrive it will find new and better ways of doing things; their laws will change and hopefully will become more fair. What I absolutely am against is for foreigners to illegally enter any country regardless of their reasoning. Yet, exceptions may be made, should be made when something cataclysmic has occurred - a great, natural calamity or a horrible war. Temporarily, these individuals may do whatever it takes to protect their families. These are times when bordering nations and global organizations should assist. However, it does not mean that things should change permanently. I want immigrants to continue to come to our country, but I want it to be legal and openly. Then you denounce what President Young did?
Ahab Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Then you denounce what President Young did? Did he do something illegal? What did God have to say about what he did?
The Nehor Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Ahab said: Did he do something illegal? What did God have to say about what he did? Yes. I think God was okay with it. I also think he is okay with my contempt of our current immigration laws which I do not break or encourage people to break but do not believe should be fully enforced. I also hold our Doofus-in-Chief's new orders in even greater contempt.
Ahab Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Yes. I think God was okay with it. I also think he is okay with my contempt of our current immigration laws which I do not break or encourage people to break but do not believe should be fully enforced. I also hold our Doofus-in-Chief's new orders in even greater contempt. Yeah I'm glad we're not commanded by our Lord to like our leaders or neighbors or everything they do. Love the sinner but hate their sins and all that, sure, but I have a very hard time trying to smile EVERY time they say or do something. 1
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