thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 7 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: It is rare to find them however. There are true homophobes out there but most alleged ones simply are people who do not like homosexuality or agree with it. Transgenderphobes are probably even harder to find. I am an old school guy. Male is male and female is female. I refuse to call boys girls and girls boys because someone thinks in their mind they are the opposite sex. I would rather die than give into this stuff. Sex is not gender. What happens when sex is indeterminate?
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Calm said: I didn't say it was easy, one has to choose if the offense is worth it. There are usually a lot of things one has to put up with in jobs. Worrying about transgenders in the restrooms given the percentage in population is probably low. My point is simply it isn't an inalienable right to say who and who can't use a bathroom you are using. You Victorian morals are showing. Ever been on an aircraft? The "facilities" are used by both sexes. 1
halconero Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 8 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: It is rare to find them however. There are true homophobes out there but most alleged ones simply are people who do not like homosexuality or agree with it. Transgenderphobes are probably even harder to find. I am an old school guy. Male is male and female is female. I refuse to call boys girls and girls boys because someone thinks in their mind they are the opposite sex. I would rather die than give into this stuff. And that's why I bring this up. Both friends have had genital reassignment surgery. So Sam looks like a man, talks like a man, and has genitalia like a man. The opposite goes for Jess. I raise the question I did before just to see how you would gauge it. Would you be okay with 5'9" bearded, muscular, male looking Sam walking into a bathroom with your wife? 3
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2017 Author Posted February 19, 2017 5 hours ago, Duncan said: what are they supposed to do, hold it in? not shower? these are basic life skills that no church should deny someone, even prisons allow people to shower. What if your daughter was transgendered? what then? It doesn't matter to me one bit if they are doing it privately what it says on the door of the room they are in. It bothers me immensely for mixed sexes to be exposed to each other as it should anyone with morals. That includes locker rooms, group showers, changing rooms, etc.
Duncan Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 Just now, JLHPROF said: It doesn't matter to me one bit if they are doing it privately what it says on the door of the room they are in. It bothers me immensely for mixed sexes to be exposed to each other as it should anyone with morals. That includes locker rooms, group showers, changing rooms, etc. why does it bother you? what if they had seperate rooms, like has been suggested?
sjdawg Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 Seems to me we should just have big washrooms that are shared by both genders. A shared area for washing your hands and a lots of stalls with floor to ceiling doors to protect privacy. (sort of like the family washrooms and change rooms that already exist. they don't seem to cause any issues)
Bernard Gui Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, Duncan said: so a trangendered youth aren't supposed to shower, go to the bathroom, swim all because you feel uncomfortable? do you normally think about youth doing those things? I don't and obviously I am not accusing you of anything untoward or anything. What are they supposed to do? not go camping? I think the larger issue is God loves everyone except his children of LGBTQ status, I think that message has been sent loud and clear so why would any youth want to have anything to do with the Church or any of its programs? I've been involved in Scouting since I was 8 years old, a school teacher of 42 years with 7 children and 19 grandchildren and my wife teaches kindergarten. Well, you inexpertly tried to sidestep a horrible accusation, and I don't take kindly to suggestions I"think about kids showering, going to the bathroom, and swimming." If that's the level of your discourse and thinking about me, I'm done talking with you and am putting you on ignore. Thanks. Edited February 19, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 6 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: I agree 100%. Out of all the problems in the world, the church is focused on the use of public restrooms? Churches need to stay out of political issues, IMO. Further, I find it ironic how some churches want to claim a tax exempt status -- yet at the same time -- engage in various political issues. With regard to the LDS church, I find it deplorable that leaders still try to define gender roles and what the family unit should look like -- when Brigham Young himself had over 50 wives. It's ok for early leaders to marry teenage girls and have numerous wives, but transgender people can't use a certain restroom? Lorenzo Snow can mary a 15-year-old at age 57...but how dare transgenders use a certain restroom for the gender they identify with? IMO, the church has no business telling the world what the family unit should look like and what gender roles people should or shouldn't fulfill, especially if you look at early church history. Where in the scripture does it say we should worry about little things like who uses what restroom? 😀 http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865673693/Utah-LDS-Church-join-friend-of-court-briefs-in-transgender-bathroom-case.html This surely is getting irrational and contentious. Perhaps it's time to shut it down.
Duncan Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 Just now, Bernard Gui said: Well, you neatly sidestepped a major accusation. I've been involved in Scouting since I was 8 years old, a school teacher of 42 years with 7 children and 19 grandchildren and my wife teaches kindergarten. I don't take kindly to accusations of "thinking about kids showering, going to the bathroom, and swimming." If that's the level of your discourse and thinking, I'm done talking with you and am putting you on ignore. Thanks. I pointed out I wasn't accusing you of anything but whatever, good luck to you
Bernard Gui Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 3 hours ago, bsjkki said: My issue is not with bathrooms--most wouldn't know if someone were transgender or not if they are actually transgender and conform outwardly to their chosen genders outward appearance. It's the locker rooms. I don't want to see male junk in the locker room and I don't want my little girls to see male junk either. I don't think girls should have to change clothes in front of biological males at school either. If you have a penis, please use a private changing area. Yes, but it's not about what you or your girls think or feel, it's how the other person feels. In our state, some places would not challenge a man being in a woman's restroom.
bsjkki Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, california boy said: Can you name a place in the entire country where this is actually happening? Just one? Or is this just mass hysteria over nothing Yes...my sister in law no longer attends her local gym because of two transgender women who still have their junk. Transgender student won right to use girls locker room. https://www.google.com/amp/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_56387949e4b00a4d2e0bb825/amp Woman kicked out of gym for complaining about transgender. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2015/03/07/living/feat-planet-fitness-transgender-member/index.html more...http://time.com/4324687/even-in-liberal-communities-transgender-bathroom-laws-worry-parents/ There are plenty more examples...just use google.https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/09/07/lawsuit-girls-exposed-to-transgender-twerking-grinding-in-locker-room.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/dailysignal.com/2015/12/21/why-these-high-school-girls-dont-want-transgender-student-a-in-their-locker-room/amp/ Edited February 19, 2017 by bsjkki
Bernard Gui Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, california boy said: Can you name a place in the entire country where this is actually happening? Just one? Or is this just mass hysteria over nothing https://thinkprogress.org/no-transgender-protections-do-not-justify-men-in-womens-restrooms-a-state-agency-just-said-so-6f6e1e27948b#.sld4xrg3m Notice that the man was presumed to be non-transgender, so it was supposedly appropriate to ask him to leave. No one asked if he was trans-gender. If you read the article carefully, you will see that a man transing to a woman would be allowed to use the locker room. Which repeats the question I asked earlier, a man who thinks he is a man cannot enter a woman's locker room, but a man who believes he is a woman can. To the girls and women in the room, what is the difference? Does this make sense to anyone? Edited February 19, 2017 by Bernard Gui
Duncan Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 Just now, bsjkki said: Yes...my sister in law no longer attends her local gym because of two transgender women who still have their junk. Transgender student won right to use girls locker room. https://www.google.com/amp/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_56387949e4b00a4d2e0bb825/amp Woman kicked out of gym for complaining about transgender. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2015/03/07/living/feat-planet-fitness-transgender-member/index.html more...http://time.com/4324687/even-in-liberal-communities-transgender-bathroom-laws-worry-parents/ There are plenty more examples...just use google. trans women who have their "junk", those are transvestite, transgendered have had surgery just so you know
Bernard Gui Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 2 hours ago, sjdawg said: I don't generally share a stall with anyone. That's comforting.
Bernard Gui Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Duncan said: I pointed out I wasn't accusing you of anything but whatever, good luck to you You will note that you indeed made an accusation and then added an inexpertly worded attempt to deflect. I don't appreciate the implications of this accusation followed by a lame excuse that it is not an accusation. We shall see what the mods say. Edited February 19, 2017 by Bernard Gui
Calm Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: You Victorian morals are showing. Ever been on an aircraft? The "facilities" are used by both sexes. What are you reading? Your comment has no relation to mine.
Duncan Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 (edited) Just now, Bernard Gui said: You will note that you indeed made an accusation and then added an inexpertly worded attempt to deflect. We shall see what the mods say. nope, a question is not an accusation. A question is "do you do this or have you ever" an accusation is "You stole that jar of pickles" or " Why did you take that pencil ? you thief". Here is a question, does what I said "obviously I am not accusing you of anything untoward or anything " mean something different to you than it does to me? Edited February 19, 2017 by Duncan 1
Calm Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 30 minutes ago, sjdawg said: Seems to me we should just have big washrooms that are shared by both genders. A shared area for washing your hands and a lots of stalls with floor to ceiling doors to protect privacy. (sort of like the family washrooms and change rooms that already exist. they don't seem to cause any issues) Exactly. 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 12 minutes ago, Duncan said: trans women who have their "junk", those are transvestite, transgendered have had surgery just so you know You are woefully uninformed, which may explain some of your more unfortunate comments. Quote Transgender: A term for people whose gender identity, expression or behavior is different from those typically associated with their assigned sex at birth. Transgender is a broad term and is good for non-transgender people to use. "Trans" is shorthand for "transgender." (Note: Transgender is correctly used as an adjective, not a noun, thus "transgender people" is appropriate but "transgenders" is often viewed as disrespectful.) Transgender Man: A term for a transgender individual who currently identifies as a man (see also “FTM”). Transgender Woman: A term for a transgender individual who currently identifies as a woman (see also “MTF”). Sex Reassignment Surgery: Surgical procedures that change one’s body to better reflect a person’s gender identity. This may include different procedures, including those sometimes also referred to as "top surgery" (breast augmentation or removal) or "bottom surgery" (altering genitals). Contrary to popular belief, there is not one surgery; in fact there are many different surgeries. These surgeries are medically necessary for some people, however not all people want, need, or can have surgery as part of their transition. "Sex change surgery" is considered a derogatory term by many. http://www.transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-terminology
Calm Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Duncan said: trans women who have their "junk", those are transvestite, transgendered have had surgery just so you know Some haven't gone through surgery yet or can't or choose not to for various reasons such as prejudice. Edited February 19, 2017 by Calm
Bernard Gui Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 3 minutes ago, Calm said: Exactly. Or three: men, women, don't care.
Calm Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: Or three: men, women, don't care. How does that solve the issue of transgenders using their chosen gender restroom?
bsjkki Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Duncan said: trans women who have their "junk", those are transvestite, transgendered have had surgery just so you know Not true...transgender do not ever have to surgery to be considered trans. https://www.google.com/amp/www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/news/amp39483/every-question-you-have-about-transgender-people-answered/ https://www.glaad.org/transgender/transfaq Edited February 19, 2017 by bsjkki
bsjkki Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 48 minutes ago, sjdawg said: Seems to me we should just have big washrooms that are shared by both genders. A shared area for washing your hands and a lots of stalls with floor to ceiling doors to protect privacy. (sort of like the family washrooms and change rooms that already exist. they don't seem to cause any issues) Middle school aged girls everywhere would rejoice to have private changing spaces in schools! I think a temple locker room set up should become popular in schools and rec centers. 2
Calm Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 It seems to me combining and having more private and secure individual stalls solves most of the issue in a cost effective way. Normally you have to set aside twice as much floor space and plumbing for two gender facilities and then add in completely separate single user rooms at times for family or whatever in larger buildings. Makes sense to use less floor space and piping by not being redundant and use the money saved or made to make more secure stalls. Lose the urinals which stink up the place anyway. The only significant problem (besides getting used to it) would be the messier bowls and floors from males who don't aim correctly or won't lift the seat. Would be nice to add some wet wipes for clean up, but otherwise just get in the habit of grabbing a couple of wet paper towels to wipe down surfaces when one goes into the stall. That way one doesn't dirty one's clothing if it touches the ground or bowl. Not a bad idea normally since even women/little girls don't always hit the target. For those who believe there is a significant additional safety issue, a guy can keep an eye on a restroom to learn when a woman walks into it alone so women only restrooms might be just as dangerous. Having no door on the common area as many restrooms are now would cut down some on predators hanging around. No need to have the door as greater privacy with the more secure stalls. Unfortunately more secure stalls backfire if the predator pushes you into one and shuts the door behind. Perhaps peepholes to look out of the stall to see if suspicious individuals are standing around could be helpful. Have phone numbers of building security on inside of stalls to call and perhaps have women employees if all male security who are willing to deal with frightened women customers...a guy in uniform may be a predator after all (a woman as well, but less likely). There are likely many adjustments that can be made with experience. Doesn't solve the locker room issue though. 1
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