Is this the reason Romney missed out on beng secretar of state?

[Meadowchik]

18 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I see this thread as a continuation and conclusion of the prior two.

I started the other threads to highlight the fact that a faithful member of the Church was being considered for an important and influential post in the U.S. government and would thus be in a position to help shape world events. I saw this as being in fulfillment of what was foretold in Nephi's vision about the church of the Lamb of God being "over all the face of the earth" (in terms of global presence and influence) though its numbers would be relatively few by reason of Satan's pervasive influence.

But all that is moot now, as the appointment of Romney is not going to happen. So perhaps it is best that this thread be closed after all.

 

We can still tie it in, imo.

Romney had a Captain Mormon moment,  was ready to lend some statesmanlike legitimacy to the Trump disaster.

This in our own frail form as human beings, is what evil vs good look like. Chatty billionaire appeals to populist urges and wins the election, after the brainy, decent millionaire has already lost.

The people get what they want and they want what they think they understand. No nation can be better than its people.

[stemelbow]

It seems to me that Hillary and Romney have a lot in common when it comes to persona.  They both come off as a bit distant.  They both come off as a bit privileged.  They both come off as thinking they are above it all.  But Trump respects them both, while neither respects Trump.  Romney was silly to think Trump would give him a high position while Romney has no respect for Trump.  Trump's a mess, sure...but he's not that stupid.  He can't hire someone who thinks he's a phony and fraud. 

[BlueDreams]

12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And I really don't see that alarming of a threat. Sorry. 

But I'm finished here now. I didn't intend for this to become a referendum on partisan politics, and now that it has, I think I'll bow out in advance of the inevitable thread closure. 

This thread's still alive??? 

I know you bowed out, but this isn't really partisan for me. I was pretty young when the Clinton scandal happened, but I lived right outside DC. It was embarrassing and largely a joke. The impeachment case made sense, but it wasn't much more. 

Several of trump statements have been more than that. Some of his proposals blatantly go against the constitution and religious liberty (such as a Muslim registry). His cabinetry are also controversial and often go against his campaign promises. He's a wild card because his campaign "promises" seem to go everywhere. He has precursor of an authoritarian leader. Several of his choices so far are based on image and whether the issue benefited him. Again that's not a partisan stance. Evan Mcmullin said as much. He is a deep concern for both republicans and democrats. 

And this is before I go into some of his bigoted/mysoginistic/insane statements

With luv, 

BD

Edited December 16, 2016 by BlueDreams

[Johnnie Cake]

14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Sweden. And he has another nine months or so to go.

Thanks for asking.

Good to know.  When I was there my wife and I ran into some missionaries...very nice clean cut American boys...their spirits were up...but not any success other than the work of being missionaries.  Just a guess but it seemed that the church only sends it best and brightest due to the difficulties in the missionary work there.  The missionaries we spoke to said they haven't baptized an actual swede in the mission in years, they just don't see the need for organized religion plus their secular lifestyle works well for them.  But that once in a blue moon they do baptize an immigrant from Africa...any way its a beautiful country...so it does have that going for it.  One other observation...Swedes LOVE their coffee...getting them to give that up must be a huge hurdle

Edited December 16, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

This thread's still alive??? 

I know you bowed out, but this isn't really partisan for me. I was pretty young when the Clinton scandal happened, but I lived right outside DC. It was embarrassing and largely a joke. The impeachment case made sense, but it wasn't much more. 

Several of trump statements have been more than that. Some of his proposals blatantly go against the constitution and religious liberty (such as a Muslim registry). His cabinetry are also controversial and often go against his campaign promises. He's a wild card because his campaign "promises" seem to go everywhere. He has precursor of an authoritarian leader. Several of his choices so far are based on image and whether the issue benefited him. Again that's not a partisan stance. Evan Mcmullin said as much. He is a deep concern for both republicans and democrats. 

And this is before I go into some of his bigoted/mysoginistic/insane statements

With luv, 

BD

I don't know if you're expecting a wholesale defense of Trump here, but if you are, you won't get it from me. I voted for McMullin. 

I was deeply disappointed throughout the campaign season that the Republicans didn't choose a better candidate. I was offended by some of the same things you are. 

That said, I was surprised on election night to find my disgust mitigated by my delight at the sudden and unexpected end of the Clinton dynasty and the jaw dropping by those in the smug political establishment, including the news media and entertainers. I thought the age when an embarrassing "Dewey Defeats Truman" kind of headline error could occur was long in the past  

Later, I was absolutely appalled at the violence and vandalism perpetrated by the thugs among the disgruntled Hillary supporters. And there are compilations on YouTube of their utterly ridiculous hysterics posted on social media. Have you seen any of them?  I would post some links but their language is so extremely vile and hateful it would probably get me thread banned. It's like watching a train wreck: horrific, but such a spectacle that I can't turn away. If this is what it means to be part of the social justice warriors or political progressives crowd, I want no part of it. 

I know candidates put their best foot forward in their election night victory speeches, but Trump's gave me reason to hope, especially after he made overtures to Romney. I still have hope, but I admit it has diminished with events of recent days. 

Edited December 16, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Good to know.  When I was there my wife and I ran into some missionaries...very nice clean cut American boys...their spirits were up...but not any success other than the work of being missionaries.  Just a guess but it seemed that the church only sends it best and brightest due to the difficulties in the missionary work there.  The missionaries we spoke to said they haven't baptized an actual swede in the mission in years, they just don't see the need for organized religion plus their secular lifestyle works well for them.  But that once in a blue moon they do baptize an immigrant from Africa...any way its a beautiful country...so it does have that going for it.  One other observation...Swedes LOVE their coffee...getting them to give that up must be a huge hurdle

Your comments are in some measure borne out by my son's experience. By far the bulk of his success is among refugees and immigrants. 

I'm not sure I believe it has been years since any Swedes were converted, though. That seems like an overstatement. 

Our boy has known some very good people among the faithful Church members there. Last New Year's Eve, we were up late playing board games and were surprised to get an email from Leif Mattsson (Hans's brother) with photos attached showing our son being entertained in their home with other missionaries for dinner on New Year's Eve. I had fun conversing back and forth with Leif in Swedish (I served my mission there about 40 years ago). 

Edited to add:

I must mention that our son said in his letter this week that in November a mission record had been established for number of baptismal dates set in a single month. I don't know the ratio, but I have to think some of these would be for native Swedes. 

Edited December 16, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don't know if you're expecting a wholesale defense of Trump here, but if you are, you won't get it from me. I voted for McMullin. 

I was deeply disappointed throughout the campaign season that the Republicans didn't choose a better candidate. I was offended by some of the same things you are. 

That said, I was surprised on election night to find my disgust mitigated by my delight at the sudden and unexpected end of the Clinton dynasty and the jaw dropping by those in the smug political establishment, including the news media and entertainers. I thought the age when an embarrassing "Dewey Defeats Truman" kind of headline error could occur was long in the past  

Later, I was absolutely appalled at the violence and vandalism perpetrated by the thugs among the disgruntled Hillary supporters. And there are compilations on YouTube of their utterly ridiculous hysterics posted on social media. Have you seen any of them?  I would post some links but their language is so extremely vile and hateful it would probably get me thread banned. It's like watching a train wreck: horrific, but such a spectacle that I can't turn away. If this is what it means to be part of the social justice warriors or political progressives crowd, I want no part of it. 

I know candidates put their best foot forward in their election night victory speeches, but Trump's gave me reason to hope, especially after he made overtures to Romney. I still have hope, but I admit it has diminished with events of recent days. 

No, I'm not. I was explaining why it seemed like a comparison of apples and oranges. I didn't get from any of your posts that you were a Trump supporter. 

And my actions were in reverse of yours, post election day. Similar before. I was in shock and physical pain the first day and then shock again that I was in so much pain. I wasn't a major Clinton supporter, though I did vote for her. It was having him as president-elect and what that signified for me that day that hurt. There was nothing delightful about that day.The closest analogy to feeling that I had from a national event was 9-11. I know that's dramatic and I've explained that to a few here and several on FB. I'm tired of explaining the emotion. In the house with my, my white roommate thought I was funny that night and then decided that was a great time to make giggle about a "black boy's" name. My hispanic roommate was just as nervous, shocked and fearful. 

Because my friends are extremely diverse I also became goalie between my family (who are generally very very conservative) and friends on FB. I would have turned it off, but I felt it was important for varying peoples to talk and I knew these groups often didn't see each other in a day-to-day point. I saw a few reports of vandalism. Mostly I saw peaceful large-scale protests that have the usual tendency of bringing people who want violence period out no matter what side they go with. I also saw my friend be told by someone that he would have to come back to where he came from. In Orem. Ironically, he got the last word since he's native american. I remember being afraid to go out in public, I just didn't want to handle ignorant or harassing comments. I remember seeing hundreds of hate related intimidation reports and acts of violence that showed likely signs of being galvanized by a Trump victory.

I cried Thursday from a sudden feeling of extreme invisibility. 

I'm better now, but my concerns about him and particularly his supporters have never abetted. His speech was fine, but I've seen narcissists do similarly. I can't say I've ever had hope in this not being as bad as it looks. My hope is more that he gets little done in office and doesn't reinstate torture, implement unconstitutional policies, or drag the US down with him.

 

With luv,

BD      

Edited December 16, 2016 by BlueDreams

[PeterPear]

On 12/15/2016 at 3:41 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

I've had two threads closed on the topic of MItt Romney being considered by the president-elect for the position of secretary of state.

Now that he Romney didn't get the post, I feel it appropriate to start one more thread reflecting on that fact, specifically, this suggestion as to the reason why.

According to this blog post (which I happened onto as a link from Dan Peterson's blog), the reason is that Romney refused to apologize for previous comments about Trump's candidacy.

It's regrettable. I think Romney would have made a good secretary of state. But I admire his adhering to principle.

What "principle" did Mitt Romney stand on? He flew to Utah and stood on his Rameumptom and dug a pit for his neighbor and stabbed him the back? How Christ-like. And you call that "standing on principle?" What a joke. 

Trump was ahead in the Primary and Mitt bad mouths him. And you Utahans eat it up out of fear because cower under your Armor of God like turtles.

Glenn Beck flies to UT to invoke the White Horse Prophecy that Ted Cruz and UT Senator Mike Lee are its fulffillment and like the dishonest politicians they are they accept the title.

And Mormons in UT soak it up like whirling dervishes and Holly Rollers blubbering and crying believing the US Constitution will come to the end if Trump is elected then your employer the Deseret News endorses Hillary Clinton.

Our LDS Church Leadership is neutral and when my fellow Mormons who live in UT become leaderless, they think the Nation will fall and crumble despite having prophets in their midst and that the point of an Election is to render unto Caesar.

Then you believe that fraud Evan McMullin will tie up the Electoral College and Congress will vote him as President.

Seriously, do you still have a Mountain Meadow Massacre 1847 Nauvoo Persecution complex?

Peter is banned from the thread.  

[Calm]

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

It seems to me that Hillary and Romney have a lot in common when it comes to persona.  They both come off as a bit distant.  They both come off as a bit privileged.  They both come off as thinking they are above it all.  But Trump respects them both, while neither respects Trump.  Romney was silly to think Trump would give him a high position while Romney has no respect for Trump.  Trump's a mess, sure...but he's not that stupid.  He can't hire someone who thinks he's a phony and fraud. 

What makes you think he respects them? (Serious question)

[emeliza]

My experiences have been more like BDs as well even though I am white.  I have seen more harassment from Trump supporters than vice versa.  

That being said, violence and disrespect on either side should always be condemned.  

 

[Scott Lloyd]

52 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

No, I'm not. I was explaining why it seemed like a comparison of apples and oranges. I didn't get from any of your posts that you were a Trump supporter. 

And my actions were in reverse of yours, post election day. Similar before. I was in shock and physical pain the first day and then shock again that I was in so much pain. I wasn't a major Clinton supporter, though I did vote for her. It was having him as president-elect and what that signified for me that day that hurt. There was nothing delightful about that day.The closest analogy to feeling that I had from a national event was 9-11. I know that's dramatic and I've explained that to a few here and several on FB. I'm tired of explaining the emotion. In the house with my, my white roommate thought I was funny that night and then decided that was a great time to make giggle about a "black boy's" name. My hispanic roommate was just as nervous, shocked and fearful. 

Because my friends are extremely diverse I also became goalie between my family (who are generally very very conservative) and friends on FB. I would have turned it off, but I felt it was important for varying peoples to talk and I knew these groups often didn't see each other in a day-to-day point. I saw a few reports of vandalism. Mostly I saw peaceful large-scale protests that have the usual tendency of bringing people who want violence period out no matter what side they go with. I also saw my friend be told by someone that he would have to come back to where he came from. In Orem. Ironically, he got the last word since he's native american. I remember being afraid to go out in public, I just didn't want to handle ignorant or harassing comments. I remember seeing hundreds of hate related intimidation reports and acts of violence that showed likely signs of being galvanized by a Trump victory.

I cried Thursday from a sudden feeling of extreme invisibility. 

I'm better now, but my concerns about him and particularly his supporters have never abetted. His speech was fine, but I've seen narcissists do similarly. I can't say I've ever had hope in this not being as bad as it looks. My hope is more that he gets little done in office and doesn't reinstate torture, implement unconstitutional policies, or drag the US down with him.

 

With luv,

BD      

If the histrionics I've been seeing on social media come true under the Trump administration, I will be right there beside you condemning him and probably calling for his impeachment. I don't anticipate it though. 

There are a couple of forecasts I do hope come about. 

One is a more conservative balance on the Supreme Court. It's still fresh in my memory that a single justice's vote made the difference last year in the Supreme Court legally redefining marriage forever. 

The other is a rollback of Obamacare. That has taken money out of my pocket in at least one way I can easily identify. I don't know if you are familiar with flexible spending accounts. They allow you to estimate how much money in a year you'll use on health care. All of the fund has to be used up in a year or you lose the balance. But all of the money is tax deductible. It used to be that there was no limit on FSA allowance. Obamacare capped it at $2,550 (for this year). My family used at least twice that amount this year on health care. 

I expect that will continue to happen at least until we get our children raised and on their own. 

[Scott Lloyd]

25 minutes ago, emeliza said:

My experiences have been more like BDs as well even though I am white.  I have seen more harassment from Trump supporters than vice versa.  

That being said, violence and disrespect on either side should always be condemned.  

 

As I said, I won't link to the stuff I've seen on YouTube because the language is too vile. 

On one of my previous Romney threads, Raingirl gave a firsthand account of stuff she had seen from Trump protestors in the week following the election. 

But I detest bullying from either side, and those who are telling people to "go back where [they] came from" deserve the strongest censure. 

Edited December 16, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Gray]

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

What makes you think he respects them? (Serious question)

I think Trump respects only those who say good things about him. 

[BlueDreams]

49 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If the histrionics I've been seeing on social media come true under the Trump administration, I will be right there beside you condemning him and probably calling for his impeachment. I don't anticipate it though. 

There are a couple of forecasts I do hope come about. 

One is a more conservative balance on the Supreme Court. It's still fresh in my memory that a single justice's vote made the difference last year in the Supreme Court legally redefining marriage forever. 

The other is a rollback of Obamacare. That has taken money out of my pocket in at least one way I can easily identify. I don't know if you are familiar with flexible spending accounts. They allow you to estimate how much money in a year you'll use on health care. All of the fund has to be used up in a year or you lose the balance. But all of the money is tax deductible. It used to be that there was no limit on FSA allowance. Obamacare capped it at $2,550 (for this year). My family used at least twice that amount this year on health care. 

I expect that will continue to happen at least until we get our children raised and on their own. 

You don't need a lot of histrionics...he really seems to love putting his own foot in his own mouth. 

Can't say that I agree with either all too much. The supreme court I'm less concerned about though I think what the republicans did was shady and far from making it the voice of the people it was more the voice of the higher ups. I don't care a ton if its more liberal or conservative, I'm more concerned that it's fairly balanced and it likely wouldn't be. 

 I know there's problems with Obamacare, but for the last 5-6 years I've been heavily benefiting from it. For one I was about to be booted off my parent's insurance when it first past. For another I've had insurance since then because of it. The worst year was when I had school health insurance. Stuff was basically crap. The subsidies have allowed me to have quality healthcare and when I was dirt poor because I was starting in a small private practice and slowly building my client load, the expansions allowed me to apply to medicaid. Not a perfect system by far and I have my complaints, but I'd be lying if I said it hasn't also helped me in definite ways.  I'm really concerned about what will happen if/when they go for the instant repeal and if there's not the 3 year delay and if the system they replace it with actually works and if they even get to the point of replacing it. Basically, that's probably the area I'm most anxious about. I get the feeling that the call to repeal is closer to stubborn principle/nay-saying than realistic plans for healthcare betterment. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited December 16, 2016 by BlueDreams

[bluebell]

I only personally know of one instance of harassment and it was vandalism of an LDS church two days after the election.  I definitely believe there has been poor behavior on both sides though.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I only personally know of one instance of harassment and it was vandalism of an LDS church two days after the election.  I definitely believe there has been poor behavior on both sides though.

Why would someone vandalize a Mormon meetinghouse after Trump won the election? Not that such perpetrators are in any way sensible. But there is no connection. 

Is this an ominous indication that the militant left will henceforth be blaming (and victimizing) the Church and its members for anything that happens that they don't like?

Edited December 17, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Why would someone vandalize a Mormon meetinghouse after Trump won the election? Not that such perpetrators are in any way sensible. But there is no connection. 

Is this an ominous indication that the militant left will henceforth be blaming (and victimizing) the Church and its members. For anything that happens that they don't like?

They wrote God is gay on it in spray paint, among other things. It was in wyoming. Definitely a weird thing to do. 

[bcuzbcuz]

14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If the histrionics I've been seeing on social media come true under the Trump administration, I will be right there beside you condemning him and probably calling for his impeachment. I don't anticipate it though. 

There are a couple of forecasts I do hope come about. 

One is a more conservative balance on the Supreme Court. It's still fresh in my memory that a single justice's vote made the difference last year in the Supreme Court legally redefining marriage forever. 

The other is a rollback of Obamacare. That has taken money out of my pocket in at least one way I can easily identify. I don't know if you are familiar with flexible spending accounts. They allow you to estimate how much money in a year you'll use on health care. All of the fund has to be used up in a year or you lose the balance. But all of the money is tax deductible. It used to be that there was no limit on FSA allowance. Obamacare capped it at $2,550 (for this year). My family used at least twice that amount this year on health care. 

I expect that will continue to happen at least until we get our children raised and on their own. 

Your comments surprise me, Scott. You were in Sweden (yes, I know, 40 years ago) and I know, as a missionary, you exist as a person in the country, but not of the country. But your comments indicate that you didn't observe how good health care actually functions. I live here in Sweden, I served as a missionary here 50 years ago, and then I married and baprized my wife (now deceased). My children were born here and then we moved, but then 11 years ago I remarried, again to a woman in Sweden and I have lived here since (three of my children and 5 of my grandchildren live here in Scandanavia). Sammanlagt har jag bott här i 27 år.

10 years ago I collapsed at work, then spent 2 weeks in intensive care with complications from a ruptured appendix. I needed almost a month at home to fully recover. Total cost: $ 9.00 (hospital admittance fee). No cost for the doctors, no cost for the medications, no cost for the ambulance when I was transferred to another hospital and I returned to work without ever having any worries about whether my job was still there for me (I was 61 years old at the time).

Total cost for the hospital and doctors fees for the birthing of my six children: $ 0. Total cost for the hospital and doctors fees for my wife's three children: $ 0. Total costs for any of the many hospital procedures our 9 children have needed, broken arms, collar bones, ribs, cuts and sores, major heart surgery: $ 0.

Medicines here (with exactly the same name and makeup as the same products in the US) cost only a fraction of the price. We even have a cap on the total costs of medicines. That means I pay for my high blood pressure meds for the first two packs, thenafter only a handling fee. 

Why should such things be important?, you may ask. It means we never have to hesitate when any of our children (and now our grandchildren) become ill or injured or even deathly sick. We get the care or medications when we need it without any financial repercussions. Some people (on social media or with a political agenda) try to say that the Swedish medical care is somehow deficient because it is freely available. Yes, we do have waiting times for some surgeries. Yes, things could and can be better. 

And yes, both my wife and I have had lifetime careers with secured incomes so we do not belong to the group who in the US or some other countries, would be totally ruined by medical costs. But when we read of families and people who are ruined and loose everything because of doctor or hospital bills, it breaks our hearts. It doesn't have to be that way.

You should have observed that when you were here 40 years ago. You hope for a rollback of Obamacare. That must mean you are financially stable. Would it be fair to say not everyone is so fortunate?

 

 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

24 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Your comments surprise me, Scott. You were in Sweden (yes, I know, 40 years ago) and I know, as a missionary, you exist as a person in the country, but not of the country. But your comments indicate that you didn't observe how good health care actually functions. I live here in Sweden, I served as a missionary here 50 years ago, and then I married and baprized my wife (now deceased). My children were born here and then we moved, but then 11 years ago I remarried, again to a woman in Sweden and I have lived here since (three of my children and 5 of my grandchildren live here in Scandanavia). Sammanlagt har jag bott här i 27 år.

10 years ago I collapsed at work, then spent 2 weeks in intensive care with complications from a ruptured appendix. I needed almost a month at home to fully recover. Total cost: $ 9.00 (hospital admittance fee). No cost for the doctors, no cost for the medications, no cost for the ambulance when I was transferred to another hospital and I returned to work without ever having any worries about whether my job was still there for me (I was 61 years old at the time).

Total cost for the hospital and doctors fees for the birthing of my six children: $ 0. Total cost for the hospital and doctors fees for my wife's three children: $ 0. Total costs for any of the many hospital procedures our 9 children have needed, broken arms, collar bones, ribs, cuts and sores, major heart surgery: $ 0.

Medicines here (with exactly the same name and makeup as the same products in the US) cost only a fraction of the price. We even have a cap on the total costs of medicines. That means I pay for my high blood pressure meds for the first two packs, thenafter only a handling fee. 

Why should such things be important?, you may ask. It means we never have to hesitate when any of our children (and now our grandchildren) become ill or injured or even deathly sick. We get the care or medications when we need it without any financial repercussions. Some people (on social media or with a political agenda) try to say that the Swedish medical care is somehow deficient because it is freely available. Yes, we do have waiting times for some surgeries. Yes, things could and can be better. 

And yes, both my wife and I have had lifetime careers with secured incomes so we do not belong to the group who in the US or some other countries, would be totally ruined by medical costs. But when we read of families and people who are ruined and loose everything because of doctor or hospital bills, it breaks our hearts. It doesn't have to be that way.

You should have observed that when you were here 40 years ago. You hope for a rollback of Obamacare. That must mean you are financially stable. Would it be fair to say not everyone is so fortunate?

 

 

 

You didn't mention a tax rate of between 57 and 61 percent in Sweden. 

I suppose some would be OK with that level of socialism; I'm not. I'd be happy with tax deduction on unlimited out-of-pocket expenses for health care -- which Obamacare took away from me. 

[bcuzbcuz]

51 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You didn't mention a tax rate of between 57 and 61 percent in Sweden. 

I suppose some would be OK with that level of socialism; I'm not. I'd be happy with tax deduction on unlimited out-of-pocket expenses for health care -- which Obamacare took away from me. 

Your tax numbers are wrong, by 20 percent. And Sweden is, unfortunately, no longer anywhere near being socialist, nor does it maintain anything that could be called socialism in its politics.

But even if those tax numbers were true, (which they're not) I'd be happy to pay if it meant that everyone had equal access to good quality health care....because I know, with absolute certainty that not everyone has it as good, financially, as my family does.

The church has a welfare plan, but it is accessible to how many? Mormons are less than 2 % of the population in the US. (Mormons are 0.1% of Swedes) What percentage of Mormons receive welfare from the church? In fact, the numbers that draw benefit from this plan are only a very small percentage. The numbers of the people in the US that need daily things like food, clothing, shelter and possibly, health care are huge. Here in Sweden, an alcoholic, homeless person (and there are some who choose, for reasons only God knows why, to live on the streets) has free and equal access to health care. 

But that also means ordinary families can have medical care whenever they need it. I understand your position, somewhat. I just personally think access to proper healthcare should not be defined by how much money an individual or family may have.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Your tax numbers are wrong, by 20 percent. And Sweden is, unfortunately, no longer anywhere near being socialist, nor does it maintain anything that could be called socialism in its politics.

But even if those tax numbers were true, (which they're not) I'd be happy to pay if it meant that everyone had equal access to good quality health care....because I know, with absolute certainty that not everyone has it as good, financially, as my family does.

The church has a welfare plan, but it is accessible to how many? Mormons are less than 2 % of the population in the US. (Mormons are 0.1% of Swedes) What percentage of Mormons receive welfare from the church? In fact, the numbers that draw benefit from this plan are only a very small percentage. The numbers of the people in the US that need daily things like food, clothing, shelter and possibly, health care are huge. Here in Sweden, an alcoholic, homeless person (and there are some who choose, for reasons only God knows why, to live on the streets) has free and equal access to health care. 

But that also means ordinary families can have medical care whenever they need it. I understand your position, somewhat. I just personally think access to proper healthcare should not be defined by how much money an individual or family may have.

I have a close friend from the US that lived in Sweden for 5 years.  She adored it, except for the health care.  She said it was horrible.  It was practically impossible to get in to see a doctor and her kids suffered more there under the free system because you couldn't get in.  She talks about a friend there who's infant had febrile seizures and the doctors refused to see her because it wasn't serious enough.  Plus, when you did try to get in, you had no choice on the date or time of the appointment.  It didn't matter if your mother had died and that day was the funeral, you went to the doctor when they said to go.

Another very close friend of mine lived in Canada for a few years.  They paid $80,000 in taxes the first year and they aren't rich.  They received a raise to go work there but they actually brought home significantly less than they did in the US, even with the raise.  She loved Canada but did not really like their health care.  She had a baby there and ended up in a sharing a room and a bathroom with a woman who had hepatitis!  And bathrooms are bloody places after having a baby.  She was terrified to even use it.  She also had trouble getting in to the doctor.  

Every system has negatives and positives (and ours needs to be fixed) but we have to be careful not to fall for the idea that good quality health care that everyone has access to is merely a matter of taxation and a socialized system.  

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Your tax numbers are wrong, by 20 percent. 

Here is where my numbers came from:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/sweden/personal-income-tax-rate

[Sleeper Cell]

On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 6:17 AM, stemelbow said:

t seems to me that Hillary and Romney have a lot in common when it comes to persona.  They both come off as a bit distant.  They both come off as a bit privileged.  They both come off as thinking they are above it all.  But Trump respects them both, while neither respects Trump.  Romney was silly to think Trump would give him a high position while Romney has no respect for Trump.  Trump's a mess, sure...but he's not that stupid.  He can't hire someone who thinks he's a phony and fraud. 

And, when it come to appearances, counterfeit money has a lot in common with real money. 

I am far more concerned about what people actually are, then about their “personas.”  Especially if their persona’s are, to some extent, created by the narratives of their political enemies.
  
IMO, Hillary has far more in common with Trump than she does with Romney.  For starters, both really think they are “above it all.”  Not merely in the social sense, but in the sense that neither feels they are subject to any standards of ethical behavior.  That is the primary reason I could not bring myself to vote for either.  

I tend to agree with your main point -- that it was a bit silly to think that Trump would have appointed Romney.  Among the first questions at his confirmation hearing would have been:
“Governor Romney, you have publicly called Pres Trump a fraud and a con man.  Do you still believe this?  If not, why have you changed your mind?  If you still do, do you believe that this would affect your ability to negotiate deals with foreign leaders on his behalf?"

[thesometimesaint]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You didn't mention a tax rate of between 57 and 61 percent in Sweden. 

I suppose some would be OK with that level of socialism; I'm not. I'd be happy with tax deduction on unlimited out-of-pocket expenses for health care -- which Obamacare took away from me. 

A federal income tax deduction for out of pocket medical expenses would have very little to no effect on Romney's 47%.

SEE https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/tax-tips/Tax-Deductions-and-Credits/-Can-I-Claim-Medical-Expenses-on-My-Taxes-/INF14196.html

[Scott Lloyd]

58 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

A federal income tax deduction for out of pocket medical expenses would have very little to no effect on Romney's 47%.

SEE https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/tax-tips/Tax-Deductions-and-Credits/-Can-I-Claim-Medical-Expenses-on-My-Taxes-/INF14196.html

The cap on flexible spending allowance has had and will continue to have considerable impact on <me> and my family. Yet another example of the middle class being forced to bear the burden for social programs championed by elite liberal millionaires.