Time in the garden of Eden

[waveslider]

The lesson in priesthood today was on Marriage from the Howard W. Hunter manual, chapter 16. I have often wondered about how long Adam and Eve were in the garden, but the thought never occurred to me that there wasn't any such thing as time in the garden until focus came upon this passage: "The first marriage was performed by the Lord. It was an eternal marriage because there was no such thing as time when that ceremony took place." I have never heard that there was no such thing as time in the garden of Eden before this. It does make sense since there would be no end to life until they partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but I have never thought of it that way before.

My questions are: is there anywhere else that it is stated that there was no such thing as time in the garden? Perhaps I have been living under a rock (or to be more precise on top of a rock, out in the middle of the ocean ) so to speak, and it is common knowledge, but it is new to me. What are your thoughts on this concept, that there is no such thing as time in the garden of Eden?

Here's the link to the lesson: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-howard-w-hunter/chapter-16-marriage-an-eternal-partnership?lang=eng

Edited September 18, 2016 by waveslider
Had an extra word that needed to be edited out

[cinepro]

3 minutes ago, waveslider said:

The lesson in priesthood today was on Marriage from the Howard W. Hunter manual, chapter 16. I have often wondered about how long Adam and Eve were in the garden, but the thought never occurred to me that there wasn't any such thing as time in the garden until focus came upon this passage: "The first marriage was performed by the Lord. It was an eternal marriage because there was no such thing as time when that ceremony took place." I have never heard that there was no such thing as time in the garden of Eden before this. It does make sense since there would be no end to life until they partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but I have never thought of it that way before.

My questions are: is there anywhere else that it is stated that there was no such thing as time in the garden? Perhaps I have been living under a rock (or to be more precise on top of a rock, out in the middle of the ocean ) so to speak, and it is common knowledge, but it is new to me. What are your thoughts on this concept, that there is no such thing as time in the garden of Eden?

Here's the link to the lesson: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-howard-w-hunter/chapter-16-marriage-an-eternal-partnership?lang=eng

I think he's using the word "time" in the sense of a marriage "for time" meaning until death.  Although once we start getting creative with the story of the creation and Adam and Eve, things can go off the rails pretty quick....

President Joseph Fielding Smith stated that in this verse the Lord “revealed to Abraham that Adam was subject to Kolob’s time before his transgression.”¹⁹ According to President Brigham Young, Abraham 5:13 [Abr. 5:13] also means that before the Fall of Adam, the earth was near the very throne of God. But when the Fall occurred, the earth literally fell or moved from the physical presence of God to its present position in our solar system. When all the effects of the Fall of Adam are finally overcome, the earth will literally move back into the presence of God. Here are President Young’s words:

“When the earth was framed and brought into existence and man was placed upon it, it was near the throne of our Father in heaven. … But when man fell, the earth fell into space, and took up its abode in this planetary system. … This is the glory the earth came from, and when it is glorified it will return again unto the presence of the Father, and it will dwell there, and these intelligent beings that I am looking at, if they live worthy of it, will dwell upon this earth.”²⁰

The power by which the effects of Adam’s Fall are overcome for all created things, including the earth, is the Atonement of Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:40–43; Moses 7:48–62).

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1997/03/the-book-of-abraham-a-most-remarkable-book?lang=eng

 

 

[CV75]

36 minutes ago, waveslider said:

The lesson in priesthood today was on Marriage from the Howard W. Hunter manual, chapter 16. I have often wondered about how long Adam and Eve were in the garden, but the thought never occurred to me that there wasn't any such thing as time in the garden until focus came upon this passage: "The first marriage was performed by the Lord. It was an eternal marriage because there was no such thing as time when that ceremony took place." I have never heard that there was no such thing as time in the garden of Eden before this. It does make sense since there would be no end to life until they partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but I have never thought of it that way before.

My questions are: is there anywhere else that it is stated that there was no such thing as time in the garden? Perhaps I have been living under a rock (or to be more precise on top of a rock, out in the middle of the ocean ) so to speak, and it is common knowledge, but it is new to me. What are your thoughts on this concept, that there is no such thing as time in the garden of Eden?

Here's the link to the lesson: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-howard-w-hunter/chapter-16-marriage-an-eternal-partnership?lang=eng

D&C 132 uses the phrases "for time and for all eternity" and "in time, and through all eternity" to distinguish that which is done for and in mortality from that which is done for and in eternity. Only the sealing power of God can make them one and the same, which is how they continued to remain married after the Fall. Mortality did not exist in the garden until after the Fall, so any additional reckoning of time beyond "day" and "night" was superfluous to our first parents, and "waiting" was reserved for Deity to use. The events certainly took place in time and space (or rather, in whatever medium they turn out to be different forms of), but both the passage of time and the circumscribing of space were meaningless to the couple.

[Five Solas]

mfbukowski has posted about time "before time."  It serves to confound critics & earn him rep points, but I'm told you have to be a committed post-modernist to really understand this kind of thing. 

Do let us know when they start making the Elders Quorum & High Priests sit through Richard Rorty videos.  I'm guessing there will be no middle ground, they'll achieve enlightenment or reenact Luke 8:33...

;0)

--Erik

[Atheist Mormon]

2 hours ago, waveslider said:

My questions are: is there anywhere else that it is stated that there was no such thing as time in the garden? Perhaps I have been living under a rock (or to be more precise on top of a rock, out in the middle of the ocean ) so to speak, and it is common knowledge, but it is new to me. What are your thoughts on this concept, that there is no such thing as time in the garden of Eden?

Here's the link to the lesson: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-howard-w-hunter/chapter-16-marriage-an-eternal-partnership?lang=eng

There was no Garden or Marriage for that matter....If God designed Marriage as eternal....I don't know if there is a more faulty design ever was.... Think about this; if we designed our Boeing aircrafts like Eternal marriage we wouldn't have air travel to begin with. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

“When the earth was framed and brought into existence and man was placed upon it, it was near the throne of our Father in heaven. … But when man fell, the earth fell into space, and took up its abode in this planetary system. … This is the glory the earth came from, and when it is glorified it will return again unto the presence of the Father, and it will dwell there, and these intelligent beings that I am looking at, if they live worthy of it, will dwell upon this earth.

The little known method of how the earth was moved:

 

[waveslider]

22 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

if we designed our Boeing aircrafts like Eternal marriage we wouldn't have air travel to begin with.

If we designed Boeing aircraft from an higher existence than a temporal one, Boeing would be out of business since there would be no need to ever purchase anymore aircraft after the initial purchase.

[Atheist Mormon]

8 minutes ago, waveslider said:

If we designed Boeing aircraft from an higher existence than a temporal one, Boeing would be out of business since there would be no need to ever purchase anymore aircraft after the initial purchase.

Did you understand, my "higher Design" mocking? Actually Marriage is a horrible design (if ever was a design) with over 50% failure rate? 

[waveslider]

29 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Did you understand, my "higher Design" mocking? Actually Marriage is a horrible design (if ever was a design) with over 50% failure rate? 

Yeah, I guess it wasn't designed to help selfish people out much. If there were no selfishness involved in some form or another, there would be a 0% rate of failure.

[Atheist Mormon]

1 minute ago, waveslider said:

Yeah, I guess it wasn't designed to help selfish people out much. If there were no selfishness involved in some form or another, there would be a 0% rate of failure.

Yea, I'm one of them, married most of my adult life...... Darwinian evolution does not care one iota about the the sacredness of marriage (I'm not mocking anything) all it cares is the SURVIVAL of species. and do you se that humans or any other species owe anything to any higher principle?

[waveslider]

2 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Yea, I'm one of them, married most of my adult life...... Darwinian evolution does not care one iota about the the sacredness of marriage (I'm not mocking anything) all it cares is the SURVIVAL of species. and do you se that humans or any other species owe anything to any higher principle?

Darwinian evolution doesn't trump God on iota. Heck it can't even explain how life started in the first place.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

There was no Garden or Marriage for that matter....If God designed Marriage as eternal....I don't know if there is a more faulty design ever was.... Think about this; if we designed our Boeing aircrafts like Eternal marriage we wouldn't have air travel to begin with. 

No, we would just make sure only qualified competent people could participate in it. You know, like we check pilots. Instead we let anyone in the cockpit. Can you imagine what accident rates would be if we let any passenger who wanted to fly the plane?

[Atheist Mormon]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, we would just make sure only qualified competent people could participate in it. You know, like we check pilots. Instead we let anyone in the cockpit. Can you imagine what accident rates would be if we let any passenger who wanted to fly the plane?

What are you saying exactly? Just letting competent people to marry? Because the way it looks, it is not a great way to brag about it with failure rate over 50%.

[Atheist Mormon]

10 hours ago, waveslider said:

Darwinian evolution doesn't trump God on iota. Heck it can't even explain how life started in the first place.

Yeah? When was the last time you went a university did not teach Evolution? Even BYU has to teach evolution. 

As for for not being able to explain how life started; You are greatly mistaken....We have more evidence than world museums can display.

[snowflake]

46 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Yeah? When was the last time you went a university did not teach Evolution? Even BYU has to teach evolution. 

As for for not being able to explain how life started; You are greatly mistaken....We have more evidence than world museums can display.

I've often been told that evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis or the origin of life.  Would you agree?

[Atheist Mormon]

3 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I've often been told that evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis or the origin of life.  Would you agree?

Not at all, It is an integral part of Life itself. Without evolution life cannot function. 

Otherwise Life would be based on silicone or quartz....We'd have eternal existence...Since we are Carbon based, we are screwed.

[snowflake]

Quote

 

How does evolution get around the law of biogenesis?

The law of biogenesis, attributed to Louis Pasteur, is the conclusion that complex living things come only from other living things, by reproduction (e.g. a spider lays eggs, which develop into spiders). That is, modern life does not arise from non-living material, which was the position held by spontaneous generation.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

What are you saying exactly? Just letting competent people to marry? Because the way it looks, it is not a great way to brag about it with failure rate over 50%.

Who is bragging? Also, your failure rate is exaggerated. It is not over half. In fact if current trends continues we can expect Millenial marriages to have around a 70% success rate.

It is an even worse thing to try to shut someone down while not realizing you have your facts all wrong. Make sure you never fly a plane.

[JLHPROF]

12 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Did you understand, my "higher Design" mocking? Actually Marriage is a horrible design (if ever was a design) with over 50% failure rate?

No, God's marriage design is perfect.
He provided the perfect blueprint.

Unfortunately, we are terrible at following instructions.  We think we know how a marriage should be put together better than the guy who designed the whole idea.

[Robert F. Smith]

14 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

There was no Garden or Marriage for that matter....If God designed Marriage as eternal....I don't know if there is a more faulty design ever was.... Think about this; if we designed our Boeing aircrafts like Eternal marriage we wouldn't have air travel to begin with. 

"the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing."  Psalm 2:1, Acts 4:25

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Who is bragging? Also, your failure rate is exaggerated. It is not over half. In fact if current trends continues we can expect Millenial marriages to have around a 70% success rate.

It is an even worse thing to try to shut someone down while not realizing you have your facts all wrong. Make sure you never fly a plane.

He needs to go see "Sully."

[Atheist Mormon]

Suppose you'r right, it is 30% failure rate...Would you like to fly under those circumstances?

[ksfisher]

11 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Suppose you'r right, it is 30% failure rate...Would you like to fly under those circumstances?

I guess the alternative is staying on the ground all your life.  Or in other words, since all the birds in the forest do not sing perfectly, none should sing.

[Robert F. Smith]

17 hours ago, cinepro said:

I think he's using the word "time" in the sense of a marriage "for time" meaning until death.  Although once we start getting creative with the story of the creation and Adam and Eve, things can go off the rails pretty quick....

Quote

President Joseph Fielding Smith stated that in this verse the Lord “revealed to Abraham that Adam was subject to Kolob’s time before his transgression.”¹⁹ According to President Brigham Young, Abraham 5:13 [Abr. 5:13] also means that before the Fall of Adam, the earth was near the very throne of God. But when the Fall occurred, the earth literally fell or moved from the physical presence of God to its present position in our solar system. When all the effects of the Fall of Adam are finally overcome, the earth will literally move back into the presence of God. Here are President Young’s words:

“When the earth was framed and brought into existence and man was placed upon it, it was near the throne of our Father in heaven. … But when man fell, the earth fell into space, and took up its abode in this planetary system. … This is the glory the earth came from, and when it is glorified it will return again unto the presence of the Father, and it will dwell there, and these intelligent beings that I am looking at, if they live worthy of it, will dwell upon this earth.”²⁰

The power by which the effects of Adam’s Fall are overcome for all created things, including the earth, is the Atonement of Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:40–43; Moses 7:48–62).

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1997/03/the-book-of-abraham-a-most-remarkable-book?lang=eng 

This would mean that the time referred to was relative to the place in which the Earth was at a given moment.  In other words, Garden-time would be Kolob-time, which is not the abode of God, but is near unto it.  One day on Kolob is equivalent to a thousand years of Earth-time as we know it.

"One day to a cubit" might then entail ancient Egyptian practice, as noted by R. A. Schwaller de Lubicz, Temple of Man, I:299 #5, 7, 11:

Quote

All units of measure are inevitably derived from one geodetic measure, the arc of meridian.  The human fathom [1.83 m] represents the thousandth part of 1'  of arc and serves as the initial measure; . . . *   *   * The fathom considered as the arc of 60̊ determines the cubit that serves as its radius.   *     *     * If one accepts that a degree of arc of the average meridian of the latitude of Egypt can be divided into 21x104, we get a new cubit that we have not examined here, approximately 0.527 meter.  The cubit is the standard for the nilometer of Elephantine.  It is probably also the stade that was referred to by Eratosthenes; this stade is 300 cubits, which makes 700 stades to a degree, or 210,000 cubits.

How should one have measured “one day to a cubit”?  It is possible that something like a Biltmore stick was used, or perhaps a more exotic ancient Egyptian measuring device, such as the all-purpose merkhet “indicator, instrument of knowing” – a kind of sighting-bar with plumb-line (kh3y) and plumb-bob (tkh) which was used variously as a “shadow-clock” (sun-dial), as a star-clock, as a horologion (water-clock), and as an astral gauge in surveying for foundation ceremonies.  For use in the latter instance, it was combined with a b3y (n imy wnwt “palm-rib of the observer of hours”), which could be sighted in on Mizar (ζ-Ursae Majoris) in the Big Dipper’s handle, and on Kochab (β-Ursae Minoris) in the bowl of the Little Dipper during the Old Kingdom, since there was at that time no pole-star.

[Robert F. Smith]

17 hours ago, waveslider said:

................................

What are your thoughts on this concept, that there is no such thing as time in the garden of Eden?

Here's the link to the lesson: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-howard-w-hunter/chapter-16-marriage-an-eternal-partnership?lang=eng

In LDS theology, God is always part of time, although his time is different than ours.  For him one day is a thousand years on Earth.