RevTestament Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 7 hours ago, Calm said: What were the waters of Mormon? The waters of Noah? Waters of Judah? Waters of Sebus? The waters of Mormon have the added description of being a "fountain of pure water." I believe this narrows the field. Fountain is usually used as a source of water. It can also be a waterfall. I believe in Alma's case it was a waterfall but it would have been relatively small near the source, and therefore pure stream water. I have actually vastly narrowed the field of possibilities just the other day to one I have never heard proposed...
sam Posted August 24, 2016 Author Posted August 24, 2016 46 minutes ago, RevTestament said: The waters of Mormon have the added description of being a "fountain of pure water." I believe this narrows the field. Fountain is usually used as a source of water. It can also be a waterfall. I believe in Alma's case it was a waterfall but it would have been relatively small near the source, and therefore pure stream water. I have actually vastly narrowed the field of possibilities just the other day to one I have never heard proposed... There is also a good candidate for the waters of Mormon found in Missouri. Based on the geography and features of the suggested place and the description given by the Book of Mormon and D&C. This is how Alma described the waters of Mormon Mosiah 18:5 5 Now, there was in Mormon a fountain of pure water, and Alma resorted thither, there being near the water a thicket of small trees, where he did hide himself in the daytime from the searches of the king. What sticks out is it is described as a fountain of pure water. Big Springs, Missouri fits this description. Big Springs is a single spring that has a daily out flow of 286 million gallons per day. Enough that the springs creates white water as it enters what appears to be glacial crystal clear pool of water. You can see the white water that is produced from the out flow of the spring. The pool of water is surrounded by a thicket of trees. http://www.scienceviews.com/parks/bigspring.html How do we know that the waters of Mormon should be in Missouri the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants helps answer that question? Alma says in from Mosiah 18:4, 31 4 And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land 31 And these things were done in the borders of the land, that they might not come to the knowledge of the king. So from these verses we learn that the Waters of Mormon are near the border of the land. So how do we learn where the borders of the land are located that is deduced from D&C 54:8 when missionaries were sent out to Missouri. Missouri is stated as the borders of the Lamanite lands. 8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites. The borders of the Lamanites is located in Missouri just like the Waters of Mormon would be located in Missouri. Its large outflow of water could easily be described as a fountain in its simplest terms.
sam Posted August 24, 2016 Author Posted August 24, 2016 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: Is Meldrum paying you some kind of commission? No I do this for fun. I have seen Meldrum's map and he is wrong in several areas. 1
The Nehor Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 Just now, sam said: No I do this for fun. I have seen Meldrum's map and he is wrong in several areas. I have to admit sometimes I really wish I had the confidence to look at something briefly, make a mental connection that makes plausible sense to me without any in-depth research, and then defend it as being right at all cost no matter how many other equally plausible or more plausible explanations there are. I would be a lot wealthier if I did. 3
RevTestament Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 33 minutes ago, sam said: There is also a good candidate for the waters of Mormon found in Missouri. Based on the geography and features of the suggested place and the description given by the Book of Mormon and D&C. This is how Alma described the waters of Mormon Mosiah 18:5 5 Now, there was in Mormon a fountain of pure water, and Alma resorted thither, there being near the water a thicket of small trees, where he did hide himself in the daytime from the searches of the king. What sticks out is it is described as a fountain of pure water. Big Springs, Missouri fits this description. Big Springs is a single spring that has a daily out flow of 286 million gallons per day. Enough that the springs creates white water as it enters what appears to be glacial crystal clear pool of water. You can see the white water that is produced from the out flow of the spring. The pool of water is surrounded by a thicket of trees. Just about every spring and waterfall is bordered by a thicket of trees.... Mr May is a nice fella, but I think I probably differ from him on every point of geography except with the possible exception of Cumorah. There is just no way Montrose was ancient Zarahemla - geographically, culturally, etc.
sam Posted August 25, 2016 Author Posted August 25, 2016 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: Just about every spring and waterfall is bordered by a thicket of trees.... Mr May is a nice fella, but I think I probably differ from him on every point of geography except with the possible exception of Cumorah. There is just no way Montrose was ancient Zarahemla - geographically, culturally, etc. Big Springs Missouri has a large outflow of water but what is intriguing is that its located in Missouri. The waters of Mormon are in the borders of the land. D&C states that the borders of the Lamanites is Missouri.
Robert F. Smith Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 14 hours ago, sam said: Negative on that Ghost Rider the Hopewell occupied New York see New York Hopewell Culture. Anything Hopewell is within the Book of Mormon time period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopewell_tradition#/media/File:Hopewell_Exchange_Network_HRoe_2010.jpg The Hopewell did build impressive, geometrical mounds, made pottery, had far flung trade networks, and grew maize (Indian corn), but had no high culture or civilization. Their trading was influenced to a limited extent by Mesoamerican traders. However, as your source says: "The Hopewellian peoples had leaders, but they were not like powerful rulers who could command armies of slaves and soldiers." Most importantly, there was no literacy, and they did not use cement, both strong features of BofM cultures. 3
mfbukowski Posted August 26, 2016 Posted August 26, 2016 On 8/24/2016 at 7:31 AM, Buckeye said: I'd suggest you consult a map of the area. All of these locations (and many more) are as close or closer to Palmyra than is Niagara falls. Few are familiar with Watkins Glen. That could be another contender in the area if that is what we are looking for- and that of of course IS an "if". 1
ksfisher Posted August 26, 2016 Posted August 26, 2016 (edited) 54 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Few are familiar with Watkins Glen. That could be another contender in the area if that is what we are looking for- and that of of course IS an "if". I'm not seeing it. Edited August 26, 2016 by ksfisher 1
Buckeye Posted August 26, 2016 Posted August 26, 2016 9 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Few are familiar with Watkins Glen. That could be another contender in the area if that is what we are looking for- and that of of course IS an "if". Watkins Glen is awesome. And a much more likely candidate for Alma to choose than Niagara. It's remote and easily overlooked. Niagara would certainly be known to everyone in the region if that's where the events were taking place. 1
mfbukowski Posted August 26, 2016 Posted August 26, 2016 57 minutes ago, Buckeye said: Watkins Glen is awesome. And a much more likely candidate for Alma to choose than Niagara. It's remote and easily overlooked. Niagara would certainly be known to everyone in the region if that's where the events were taking place. Stunningly beautiful! But shhhh- don't tell anyone!
mfbukowski Posted August 26, 2016 Posted August 26, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, ksfisher said: I'm not seeing it. THIS Watkins Glen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watkins_Glen,_New_York Edited August 26, 2016 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted August 26, 2016 Posted August 26, 2016 (edited) On 8/25/2016 at 1:23 AM, Robert F. Smith said: The Hopewell did build impressive, geometrical mounds, made pottery, had far flung trade networks, and grew maize (Indian corn), but had no high culture or civilization. Their trading was influenced to a limited extent by Mesoamerican traders. However, as your source says: "The Hopewellian peoples had leaders, but they were not like powerful rulers who could command armies of slaves and soldiers." Most importantly, there was no literacy, and they did not use cement, both strong features of BofM cultures. Dang ya Bob. Here I keep telling people that the historicity of Nephites is unimportant and dang it, you are making a believer out of me!! I am actually beginning to think you have a point here! Preposterous? Of course- isn't that the point? http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/PREPOSTEROUS-BOOK-OF-MORMON.pdf Quote Preposterous What I want to say here is that the “preposterous” nature of the coming-forth of the Book of Mormon is a singular advantage. Why? Because, if the Book of Mormon cannot possibly be true (based on the unbelievable nature of its coming-forth), all the more reason to accept it as authentic when careful analysis of the text, along with comparison of it with archeology, linguistics, and history shows it to be based on empirical, secular reality. That is, despite all that might be said against it, the preponderance of hard evidence shows the Book of Mormon to be an authentic ancient document. For, according to Thomas Bayes’ Theorem for calculating probabilities, the preponderance of evidence is enough in such improbable cases to establish likelihood4 – a likelihood which should be impossible. After all, both the Bible and Homeric Epic were transmitted to us by ordinary, secular historical means, being copied by scribes for thousands of years. Both describe actual ancient civilizations which are known to have existed. This does not tell us in either case whether the miracles described in those texts actually occurred, but the lesson should be clear: The “preposterous” origin of the Book of Mormon turns that situation upside-down, and provides the singular advantage that the verifiable, systematic claims in that book not only make it likely to be authentic, but also explicitly buttress the miraculous claims of the Bible. This is an extraordinary legacy of what has rightly become a “Second Witness.” Edited August 26, 2016 by mfbukowski added quote
Jeanne Posted August 26, 2016 Posted August 26, 2016 10 hours ago, ksfisher said: I'm not seeing it. Yo....do I have a NASCAR fan out there in cyberspace??? Go Jr.!!!
ksfisher Posted August 26, 2016 Posted August 26, 2016 19 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: THIS Watkins Glen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watkins_Glen,_New_York The raceway has more accessible overnight camping as well as a McDonald's and an ATM. I think it's a much better candidate for whatever dart has been thrown at the Book of Mormon map by the man with the blindfold. I theorize that King Noah soldiers would have used the Sheriff's Office as a headquarters while searching for Alma and his people. 2
sam Posted August 26, 2016 Author Posted August 26, 2016 On August 25, 2016 at 1:23 AM, Robert F. Smith said: The Hopewell did build impressive, geometrical mounds, made pottery, had far flung trade networks, and grew maize (Indian corn), but had no high culture or civilization. Their trading was influenced to a limited extent by Mesoamerican traders. However, as your source says: "The Hopewellian peoples had leaders, but they were not like powerful rulers who could command armies of slaves and soldiers." Most importantly, there was no literacy, and they did not use cement, both strong features of BofM cultures. The hopewell did use cement on their fortifications. Hopewell trade extended thousands of miles to the Rocky Mountains to the gulf coast and Atlantic Ocean. The made highways and given how far the Hopewell trade routes were its a indication in my opinion of the use of horses that went extinct in North America.
ksfisher Posted August 26, 2016 Posted August 26, 2016 8 minutes ago, sam said: The hopewell did use cement on their fortifications. Hopewell trade extended thousands of miles to the Rocky Mountains to the gulf coast and Atlantic Ocean. The made highways and given how far the Hopewell trade routes were its a indication in my opinion of the use of horses that went extinct in North America. CFR on the Hopewell highways and cement. Not saying I doubt you, but as they say in Missouri...
Brant Gardner Posted August 26, 2016 Posted August 26, 2016 42 minutes ago, sam said: The hopewell did use cement on their fortifications. Hopewell trade extended thousands of miles to the Rocky Mountains to the gulf coast and Atlantic Ocean. The made highways and given how far the Hopewell trade routes were its a indication in my opinion of the use of horses that went extinct in North America. Sam, I disagree. I have not seen any archaeologist discuss cement for the Hopewell. You might find some hard substances on the mounds, but that was not cement, and it is not cement used for houses. Not even the hard earth mixture was known for housing. Saying that it was cement and therefore fits the Book of Mormon might sound right, but it is the wrong substance, used incorrectly, and in the wrong place. Remember, it has to be north of Nephite lands (not necessarily in them) and a place devoid of trees. That doesn't fit the Hopewell, who are part of what are termed the Woodland cultures. You are correct that the Hopewell made roads. They were not the only ones, but that is correct. However, you do have a problem with horses. They did go extinct, but they were extinct long before the date where you accept dating. If you allow Pleistocene horses in North America, then you accept them everywhere and no one has a "horse" problem. Paleontologists know that there were horses in the America. They appear to have been food sources and were hunted to extinction--but long before the Book of Mormon started (including the Jaredites). 3
RevTestament Posted August 27, 2016 Posted August 27, 2016 On 8/26/2016 at 9:50 AM, ksfisher said: CFR on the Hopewell highways and cement. Not saying I doubt you, but as they say in Missouri... Squire and Davis, http://scienceviews.com/squier/ancientmonumentstitle.html many illustrations with roads including profile cuts. the findings of daub in the fortifications came later. Maybe Sam can give you a link
ksfisher Posted September 4, 2016 Posted September 4, 2016 On August 26, 2016 at 9:40 AM, sam said: The hopewell did use cement on their fortifications. Hopewell trade extended thousands of miles to the Rocky Mountains to the gulf coast and Atlantic Ocean. The made highways and given how far the Hopewell trade routes were its a indication in my opinion of the use of horses that went extinct in North America. Sam - you have an outstanding CFR on the Hopewell use of cement. I believe that Brant Gardner has answered the question of roads sufficiently, but the issue of cement still remains. Remember, the Book of Mormon says that houses were made of cement: "the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell." (Hel 3:7) Please provide referces to the Hopewell practice of building house out of cement or retract your statement.
PeterPear Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 3 hours ago, ksfisher said: Sam - you have an outstanding CFR on the Hopewell use of cement. I believe that Brant Gardner has answered the question of roads sufficiently, but the issue of cement still remains. Remember, the Book of Mormon says that houses were made of cement: "the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell." (Hel 3:7) Please provide referces to the Hopewell practice of building house out of cement or retract your statement. "Retract your statement" oh my! Getting huffy are we? What's your definition of "cement?" Pyramids made from stone? http://www.bookofmormonpromisedland.com/nephite cement.htm Professor Hugh Nibley stated: "In view of the nature of their civilization one should not be puzzled if the Nephites had left us no ruins at all. People underestimate the capacity of things to disappear, and do not realize that the ancients almost never built of stone. Many a great civilization which has left a notable mark in history and literature has left behind not a single recognizable trace of itself. We must stop looking for the wrong things." (An Approach to the Book of Mormon, pg. 431) Professor Nibley also observed: "A closer approximation to the Book of Mormon picture of Nephite culture is seen in the [mound builder] earth and palisade structures of the Hopewell and Adena culture areas than in the later stately piles of stone in Mesoamerica…" (The Prophetic Book of Mormon', pp.272-273)
PeterPear Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 3 hours ago, ksfisher said: Sam - you have an outstanding CFR on the Hopewell use of cement. I believe that Brant Gardner has answered the question of roads sufficiently, but the issue of cement still remains. Remember, the Book of Mormon says that houses were made of cement: "the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell." (Hel 3:7) Please provide referces to the Hopewell practice of building house out of cement or retract your statement. 52 Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger. The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them.
sam Posted September 5, 2016 Author Posted September 5, 2016 3 hours ago, ksfisher said: Sam - you have an outstanding CFR on the Hopewell use of cement. I believe that Brant Gardner has answered the question of roads sufficiently, but the issue of cement still remains. Remember, the Book of Mormon says that houses were made of cement: "the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell." (Hel 3:7) Please provide referces to the Hopewell practice of building house out of cement or retract your statement. The Hopewell and Native Americans did use a cement like building material called wattle and daub. If you go to the section under fortifications you will see the use of wattle and daub. https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-3/ you will see a fortification amazingly similar how fortification are described in the Book of Mormon. This particular fortification dates after the Book of Mormon but this is how the Hopewell built their fortifications.
sam Posted September 5, 2016 Author Posted September 5, 2016 1 hour ago, PeterPear said: "Retract your statement" oh my! Getting huffy are we? What's your definition of "cement?" Pyramids made from stone? http://www.bookofmormonpromisedland.com/nephite cement.htm Professor Hugh Nibley stated: "In view of the nature of their civilization one should not be puzzled if the Nephites had left us no ruins at all. People underestimate the capacity of things to disappear, and do not realize that the ancients almost never built of stone. Many a great civilization which has left a notable mark in history and literature has left behind not a single recognizable trace of itself. We must stop looking for the wrong things." (An Approach to the Book of Mormon, pg. 431) Professor Nibley also observed: "A closer approximation to the Book of Mormon picture of Nephite culture is seen in the [mound builder] earth and palisade structures of the Hopewell and Adena culture areas than in the later stately piles of stone in Mesoamerica…" (The Prophetic Book of Mormon', pp.272-273) Hugh Nibley's initial views were right on.
Recommended Posts