The exact location of the Waters of Ripliancum

[Calm]

What were the waters of Mormon?  The waters of Noah? Waters of Judah?  Waters of Sebus?

Edited August 24, 2016 by Calm

[stemelbow]

I don't get why someone would tell us the "exact location" of a named place in the BoM and then offer us his guesswork in explanation.  I don't know where the events in the Book took place or if they took place quite like it is described, or at all, but all we have is guess work.  I'd say you have a ways to go to be able to define exact locations.  But more power to you.

[sam]

7 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

I'd suggest you consult a map of the area. All of these locations (and many more) are as close or closer to Palmyra than is Niagara falls.

It could possibly be another one of these waterfalls but since its described as exceeds all it gives the impression that its Niagara fall the largest waterfall of its kind anywhere in the world.

[Buckeye]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

What were the waters of Mormon?

They are everywhere - in countless chapels, rivers, and ocean-sides around the world. They are any where that the saints meet and covenant together to take on the name of Christ and bear each others' burdens. 

[sam]

20 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

You didn't answer my qeustion.  Verse 11 of what?

Mormon 6:6

I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, sam said:

Mormon 6:6

I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Doesn't say what you said it said.

[sam]

9 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

They are everywhere - in countless chapels, rivers, and ocean-sides around the world. They are any where that the saints meet and covenant together to take on the name of Christ and bear each others' burdens. 

Its states that Mormon hid the records in the Hill Cumorah and gave a portion of the plates to Moroni what do you think I said. The scriptures to me are very clear.

[sam]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

What were the waters of Mormon?  The waters of Noah? Waters of Judah?  Waters of Sebus?

Waters probably refer to streams springs and ponds all in a close area. In the case of ripliancum it appears that the nephites had no specific word for waterfall. But the description of ripliancum and its proximity to hill Cumorah is a dead give away as Niagara falls.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, sam said:

 In the case of ripliancum it appears that the nephites had no specific word for waterfall. 

Possibly, but since "waters of Mormon" and the other waters aren't specified and yet you are comfortable with them being "streams, springs and ponds all in a close area", why not waters of Rip as well?

[Buckeye]

8 minutes ago, sam said:

Waters probably refer to streams springs and ponds all in a close area. In the case of ripliancum it appears that the nephites had no specific word for waterfall. But the description of ripliancum and its proximity to hill Cumorah is a dead give away as Niagara falls.

 

Where do you conclude that the water must be "falling." Large waters could easily be a lake - such as modern day Ontario or Erie. Or a large bay - such as Irondequoit. 

[Robert F. Smith]

16 hours ago, sam said:

.............................................

..................Niagara Falls is the largest waterfall in the world in terms of water flow. ..........................

........................

False.  The largest waterfalls in the world are located in South America.

[Calm]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_waterfalls_by_flow_rate

Niagara is fifth.

[sam]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_waterfalls_by_flow_rate

Niagara is fifth.

Located on the Niagara River, which drains Lake Erie into Lake Ontario, the combined falls form the highest flow rate of any waterfall in the world that has a vertical drop of more than 165 feet (50 m).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niagara_Falls

[sam]

12 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

False.  The largest waterfalls in the world are located in South America.

I should have been more specific.

Niagara Falls (/naɪˈæɡrə/) is the collective name for three waterfalls that straddle the international border between Canada and the United States; more specifically, between the province of Ontario and the state of New York. They form the southern end of the Niagara Gorge.

Located on the Niagara River, which drains Lake Erie into Lake Ontario, the combined falls form the highest flow rate of any waterfall in the world that has a vertical drop of more than 165 feet (50 m).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niagara_Falls

[Brant Gardner]

41 minutes ago, sam said:

Mormon 6:6

I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Sam, you are correct that this is the most important verse. It is the only one that speaks of records being buried in Cumorah. However, I think you have missed the slightly more archaic English of the verse. In this verse "save it were" would be rendered in our idiom "except." If you read it that way, you will see why it actually excludes the plates delivered to Joseph.

I made this record [the plates delivered to Joseph] out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me [the plates of Nephi - see Mormon 4:23] by the hand of the Lord, [except] these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Just forestalling a possible objection, this is a known meaning for that phrase, attested in other documents. The Book of Mormon never says whether, or even if, the plates Moroni had (which Joseph received) were buried. We certainly know that they were, because Joseph took them out of the hill. The fact is, however, that there is nothing in the Book of Mormon that says what happened to them. The only thing it does tell us is that they were not in the Hill Cumorah, according to Mormon.

 

[ksfisher]

39 minutes ago, sam said:

Its states that Mormon hid the records in the Hill Cumorah and gave a portion of the plates to Moroni what do you think I said. The scriptures to me are very clear.

"We know the Golden plates were buried in the Hill Cumorah. Based on how I read the verses I believe Mormon also buried the Golden Plates in the same spot Joseph Smith retrieved the plates. Moroni retrieved the plates and put them back in the same spot as his father."

This is what you said, that Mormon buried the golden plates.  It's been pointed out a couple to times to you that it was not the golden plates that Mormon buried in Cumorah, but other Nephite sacred records.  Now you assert that you were saying this all the time.

It would be a lot easier to have a discussion with you if you would be consistent and acknowledge when you've been in error.

[Robert F. Smith]

16 hours ago, sam said:

I should of stated the topic as I know where the exact location of the waters of ripliancum are located.

It is always helpful to take account of the larger context of any geographical correlations you want to assert or defend.  When considering Ripliancum, for example, one ought to look at Mormon 6:4, which places Cumorah (=Ramah) "in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains," and then look at the Waters of Ripliancum in Ether 15:8, meaning "large, or to exceed all," in that same vicinity.  They most likely refer to the same geographical location.

While one might prefer for some reason to correlate that with the waters mentioned in Longellow's "Hiawatha," the overall facts of BofM geography do not allow a northeast woodland location for them.  No ancient civilization comparable to that described in the BofM existed anywhere in North America.

Sorenson reasonably understands Ripliancum to refer to the huge complex of estuaries of the Papaloapan River system in central Veracruz, Mexico.   Mormon’s Codex, 133.

As to the etymology of the toponym, I suggest that it may be connected to ancient Sumerian  rib “surpassing, outstanding, massive; strong” (ePennsylvania Sumerian Dictionary), or to Ugaritic rbm “immense-waters” (as in Naharu ilu rbm) -- A. Rahmouni, Divine Epithets in the Ugaritic Alphabetic Texts, HdO I, 93 (Leiden: Brill, 2007), 238.

[sam]

39 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It is always helpful to take account of the larger context of any geographical correlations you want to assert or defend.  When considering Ripliancum, for example, one ought to look at Mormon 6:4, which places Cumorah (=Ramah) "in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains," and then look at the Waters of Ripliancum in Ether 15:8, meaning "large, or to exceed all," in that same vicinity.  They most likely refer to the same geographical location.

While one might prefer for some reason to correlate that with the waters mentioned in Longellow's "Hiawatha," the overall facts of BofM geography do not allow a northeast woodland location for them.  No ancient civilization comparable to that described in the BofM existed anywhere in North America.

Sorenson reasonably understands Ripliancum to refer to the huge complex of estuaries of the Papaloapan River system in central Veracruz, Mexico.   Mormon’s Codex, 133.

As to the etymology of the toponym, I suggest that it may be connected to ancient Sumerian  rib “surpassing, outstanding, massive; strong” (ePennsylvania Sumerian Dictionary), or to Ugaritic rbm “immense-waters” (as in Naharu ilu rbm) -- A. Rahmouni, Divine Epithets in the Ugaritic Alphabetic Texts, HdO I, 93 (Leiden: Brill, 2007), 238.

Upstate New York easily fits the description as a land of many waters as does Niagara falls fits the terminology of ripliancum as you quoted surpassing outstanding massive and strong.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, sam said:

Upstate New York easily fits the description as a land of many waters as does Niagara falls fits the terminology of ripliancum as you quoted surpassing outstanding massive and strong.

Yes, but that neglects the fact that there was never a civilization in the American northeast which fits the overall BofM description.  All you have in that area is paleoindians with stone-age technology. 

[sam]

2 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

Sam, you are correct that this is the most important verse. It is the only one that speaks of records being buried in Cumorah. However, I think you have missed the slightly more archaic English of the verse. In this verse "save it were" would be rendered in our idiom "except." If you read it that way, you will see why it actually excludes the plates delivered to Joseph.

I made this record [the plates delivered to Joseph] out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me [the plates of Nephi - see Mormon 4:23] by the hand of the Lord, [except] these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Just forestalling a possible objection, this is a known meaning for that phrase, attested in other documents. The Book of Mormon never says whether, or even if, the plates Moroni had (which Joseph received) were buried. We certainly know that they were, because Joseph took them out of the hill. The fact is, however, that there is nothing in the Book of Mormon that says what happened to them. The only thing it does tell us is that they were not in the Hill Cumorah, according to Mormon.

 

This is another example of the problems with the meso American model. You have to have these complex exotic interpretations of verses to make stuff fit. For the North American model you don’t need exotic redefinition of words. For north America you can read it just as it reads.

Examples are tipir = horse, wood club with obsidian attached to it = iron sword, hill Cumorah = Two hill Cumorah, One hill Cumorah in New York another Hill Cumorah in meso America etc.

This is why more and more people are drawn toward the North American models you don’t need exotic interpretations and its not 2000 miles away from the one  absolute known location of the Book of Mormon the Hill Cumorah. For meso American apologist I have to specify which Hill Cumorah I’m referencing the one in New York or the make it fit hill Cumorah somewhere south of Hill Cumorah New York.

[sam]

7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, but that neglects the fact that there was never a civilization in the American northeast which fits the overall BofM description.  All you have in that area is paleoindians with stone-age technology. 

Negative on that Ghost Rider the Hopewell occupied New York see New York Hopewell Culture. Anything Hopewell is within the Book of Mormon time period.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopewell_tradition#/media/File:Hopewell_Exchange_Network_HRoe_2010.jpg

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, sam said:

This is another example of the problems with the meso American model. You have to have these complex exotic interpretations of verses to make stuff fit. 

 

"save for" = "except for" is exotic?

See item 10:

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Save

[sam]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

"save for" = "except for" is exotic?

See item 10:

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Save

It does not matter if Mormon gave him part or all of the Golden plates Mormon buried the plates at the Hill Cumorah. There is no Hill Cumorah, south of the Hill Cumorah New York.

[Calm]

So you are removing the claim of "save" as part of the exotic retranslation that you made in the post responding to Brant's pointing out that is the usage?

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, sam said:

This is another example of the problems with the meso American model. You have to have these complex exotic interpretations of verses to make stuff fit. For the North American model you don’t need exotic redefinition of words. For north America you can read it just as it reads.

Examples are tipir = horse, wood club with obsidian attached to it = iron sword, hill Cumorah = Two hill Cumorah, One hill Cumorah in New York another Hill Cumorah in meso America etc.

This is why more and more people are drawn toward the North American models you don’t need exotic interpretations and its not 2000 miles away from the one  absolute known location of the Book of Mormon the Hill Cumorah. For meso American apologist I have to specify which Hill Cumorah I’m referencing the one in New York or the make it fit hill Cumorah somewhere south of Hill Cumorah New York.

Is Meldrum paying you some kind of commission?