Plea to Meso American Apologist

[cdowis]

3 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

  When, in fact, I know that Joseph Smith never even hinted at a MesoAmerican view, but instead advocated a hemispheric view.  

I believe that your are mistaken.

Joseph Smith made a comment on the discoveries of John Lloyd Stephens, regarding Palenque, if I remember correctly, as a possible location for the BOM.  That definitely was a "hint".  You will note that archaeology was just beginning in that area.

Regarding North America, JS had ample opportunity to identify specific sites mentioned in the BOM, but, as you say, only gave hints.  It simply could have been the "land northward" for all of those hints.

Edited August 26, 2016 by cdowis

[cdowis]

3 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

I'd opine that this kind of criticism isn't merited.  

You need to talk with sam about that.  He was the one to open the door on the monetary motive for supporting one specific theory.  I was merely following up on his assertion.

We still have not heard from sam, and I asked twice in case he missed it.  The Meldrum machine is a money making enterprise and it's now fair game to ask sam his investment in that enterprise, especially since he was the one to bring it up.

Edited August 26, 2016 by cdowis

[Bob Crockett]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

I believe that your are mistaken.

Joseph Smith made a comment on the discoveries of John Lloyd Stephens, regarding Palenque, if I remember correctly, as a possible location for the BOM.  That definitely was a "hint".  You will note that archaeology was just beginning in that area.

Regarding North America, JS had ample opportunity to identify specific sites mentioned in the BOM, but, as you say, only gave hints.  It simply could have been the "land northward" for all of those hints.

 

 

Not mistaken.   “[W]hen Smith-as-mere Joseph later commented on geography, the picture he communicated is that all South and North America were involved.”  “[L]ater statements by Joseph and his early associates reveal that he supposed the entire Western Hemisphere had been occupied by Nephites and Lamanites.”  John L. Sorenson, "How Could Joseph Smith Write So Accurately about Ancient American Civilization?" in Donald W. Parry, Daniel C. Peterson, John W. Welch, eds., Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon (Provo, Utah:  Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 2002), at 268:    Matt Roper says:  " Joseph Smith “seems to have adopted the wording of fellow Latter-day Saints who thought of the Book of Mormon in broad terms inclusive of all the Americas," in  Mathew Roper, “Joseph Smith and the Question of Book of Mormon Geography,” FAIR Presentation Aug. 5, 2010, at 27.     

Edited August 26, 2016 by Bob Crockett

[Bob Crockett]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

You need to talk with sam about that.  He was the one to open the door on the monetary motive for supporting one specific theory.  I was merely following up on his assertion.

We still have not heard from sam, and I asked twice in case he missed it.  The Meldrum machine is a money making enterprise and it's now fair game to ask sam his investment in that enterprise, especially since he was the one to bring it up.

 

My post was directed to you.  Isn't it a tu quoque criticism to dismiss what he says merely because it is associated with money-making endevors?  Isn't just about anything associated with money or fund-raising?  I do respect the fact that Meldrum's views are vastly more popular than Sorenson's, at least according to Amazon ranks.

[cdowis]

47 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Not mistaken.   “[W]hen Smith-as-mere Joseph later commented on geography, the picture he communicated is that all South and North America were involved.”  “[L]ater statements by Joseph and his early associates reveal that he supposed the entire Western Hemisphere had been occupied by Nephites and Lamanites.”  John L. Sorenson, "How Could Joseph Smith Write So Accurately about Ancient American Civilization?" in Donald W. Parry, Daniel C. Peterson, John W. Welch, eds., Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon (Provo, Utah:  Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 2002), at 268:    Matt Roper says:  " Joseph Smith “seems to have adopted the wording of fellow Latter-day Saints who thought of the Book of Mormon in broad terms inclusive of all the Americas," in  Mathew Roper, “Joseph Smith and the Question of Book of Mormon Geography,” FAIR Presentation Aug. 5, 2010, at 27.     

That is correct.  For example, the "land northward" was in North America.  So, there were Lamanites and Nephites throughout the entire Western Continent, but he did not say the specific location where the events of the BOM took place.

You are reading too much into his statement   Are you saying the events in the BOM were located in the entire continent??f  And that this "island" mentioned in the BOM was the entire Western Continent???????

But if that works for you, I have no interest in trying to argue out of that notion.

[Bob Crockett]

I say none of those things.  I merely point out that Joseph Smith saw the Book of Mormon events as hemispheric, as noted Mesoamericanists admit.  Nothing more, nothing less.

It neither works for me nor not works for me.  It tells me that it is absurd to cite Joseph Smith as support for any LGT theory.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Bob Crockett

[BCSpace]

On 8/19/2016 at 2:40 PM, sam said:

Book of Mormon mentions metal shields, head plates, metal jewelry and metal weapons. The Hopewell Indians had metal shields,  head plates, metal jewelry and metal weapons. Their timeline is also is a match to the Book of Mormon.

Just a quick glance at the science shows thinking that it was the introduction of the bow and arrow that helped cause the decline of the Hopewell tradition by stressing populations with food shortages because of improved hunting.  This occurred after BoM times so a Hopewell LGT doesn't seem hopeful (pun intended).

[PeterPear]

On August 24, 2016 at 4:56 AM, cdowis said:

I don't understand your logic.  Are you assumming that the Maya were the only ones who lived in mesoamerica, that there were no other groups?  Is this your logic -->>
"The Mayans were not related to the Book o Mormon,therefore it did not occur in mesoamerica"

Yes. According to modern archeology, the Maya existed in Mesoamerica before and after 600 B.C. - 420 A.D.

To claim the Nephites, Lamanites, Mulekites lived among the Maya and had their three separate civilizations separate than the Maya but the three lived among the Maya at the same time is - silly. It contradicts the Book of Mormon.

[cdowis]

Peter Pear,

Goodbye and best of luck to you.

[Vance]

On 8/23/2016 at 10:14 PM, Rajah Manchou said:

Interesting, so in your interpretation the gentiles that scattered the seed would be the Spanish who came following Columbus and the gentiles who came out of captivity were the pilgrims, and they are distinct from each other?

But still, the common interpretation is that the "mother Gentiles gathered together to battle against them" refers to the American wars for independence and not to the Mexican wars for independence.

I think you need to reread my post.

[Vance]

On 8/23/2016 at 10:26 PM, Rajah Manchou said:

Depends on where the promised land is

If its in New York than I would say the gentile is someone like Erikson or Cabot. If its Meso than Columbus is the more likely option. If its somewhere in South America than maybe Vespucci?

And not to leave out the alternative models. If its Baja than probably Cortes. And for Malay it'd be T'ien Chu Chan-t'an who was guided by a divine voice to rule over Zhenla in 357 AD.

 

On 8/24/2016 at 2:58 AM, RevTestament said:

John Smith? or Edward Wingfield? dunno - there were several on the first council of Jamestown.

Please feel free to provide a statement by any General Authority or General Officer of the Church that mentions anyone other than Christopher Columbus as a fulfillment of this prophecy.

 

Whereas I have this,

https://www.lds.org/friend/2007/10/christopher-columbus?lang=eng

and this,

https://www.lds.org/friend/1992/10/christopher-columbus-inspired-seaman?lang=eng

and this,

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/10/columbus-and-the-hand-of-god?lang=eng

and this,

"The entire world is celebrating this month the five hundredth anniversary of the discovery of America by Christopher Columbus. Admiral Samuel Eliot Morison, his biographer, says, “This night of October 11–12 [1492] was one big with destiny for the human race, the most momentous ever experienced aboard any ship in any sea.” (Admiral of the Ocean Sea: A Life of Christopher Columbus, Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1942, p. 223.)

In my private commemoration of this event, I have read and reread one important and prophetic verse from the Book of Mormon, and also a very long biography of Christopher Columbus.

That verse from Nephi’s vision states: “And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.” (1 Ne. 13:12.)

We interpret that to refer to Columbus. It is interesting to note that the Spirit of God wrought upon him. After reading that long biography, a Pulitzer winner of forty years ago, titled Admiral of the Ocean Sea—I have no doubt that Christopher Columbus was a man of faith, as well as a man of indomitable determination.

I recognize that in this anniversary year a host of critics have spoken out against him. I do not dispute that there were others who came to this Western Hemisphere before him. But it was he who in faith lighted a lamp to look for a new way to China and who in the process discovered America. His was an awesome undertaking—to sail west across the unknown seas farther than any before him of his generation. He it was who, in spite of the terror of the unknown and the complaints and near mutiny of his crew, sailed on with frequent prayers to the Almighty for guidance. In his reports to the sovereigns of Spain, Columbus repeatedly asserted that his voyage was for the glory of God and the spread of the Christian faith. Properly do we honor him for his unyielding strength in the face of uncertainty and danger."

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/11/building-your-tabernacle?lang=eng

and this,

"There are biblical references to America, and we are all aware of Nephi’s vision wherein he sees “a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.” (1 Ne. 13:12.)

This of course refers to Christopher Columbus, and we have this further scripture foretelling the coming of the Pilgrims or Puritans:"

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/pioneers-are-still-needed?lang=eng

 

So, again, the question is asked, where exactly did "even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land", occur?

 

Edited August 28, 2016 by Vance

[Vance]

[cdowis]

On 8/25/2016 at 11:04 PM, Bob Crockett said:

I say none of those things.  I merely point out that Joseph Smith saw the Book of Mormon events as hemispheric, as noted Mesoamericanists admit.  Nothing more, nothing less.

OK, fair enough.  I misinterpreted your post.

It neither works for me nor not works for me.  It tells me that it is absurd to cite Joseph Smith as support for any LGT theory.

On th other hand, neither does his statement support the hemispheric model for the location of the events in the BOM.

 

[RevTestament]

37 minutes ago, Vance said:

 

Please feel free to provide a statement by any General Authority or General Officer of the Church that mentions anyone other than Christopher Columbus as a fulfillment of this prophecy.

 

Whereas I have this,

https://www.lds.org/friend/2007/10/christopher-columbus?lang=eng

and this,

https://www.lds.org/friend/1992/10/christopher-columbus-inspired-seaman?lang=eng

and this,

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/10/columbus-and-the-hand-of-god?lang=eng

and this,

"The entire world is celebrating this month the five hundredth anniversary of the discovery of America by Christopher Columbus. Admiral Samuel Eliot Morison, his biographer, says, “This night of October 11–12 [1492] was one big with destiny for the human race, the most momentous ever experienced aboard any ship in any sea.” (Admiral of the Ocean Sea: A Life of Christopher Columbus, Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1942, p. 223.)

In my private commemoration of this event, I have read and reread one important and prophetic verse from the Book of Mormon, and also a very long biography of Christopher Columbus.

That verse from Nephi’s vision states: “And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.” (1 Ne. 13:12.)

We interpret that to refer to Columbus. It is interesting to note that the Spirit of God wrought upon him. After reading that long biography, a Pulitzer winner of forty years ago, titled Admiral of the Ocean Sea—I have no doubt that Christopher Columbus was a man of faith, as well as a man of indomitable determination.

I recognize that in this anniversary year a host of critics have spoken out against him. I do not dispute that there were others who came to this Western Hemisphere before him. But it was he who in faith lighted a lamp to look for a new way to China and who in the process discovered America. His was an awesome undertaking—to sail west across the unknown seas farther than any before him of his generation. He it was who, in spite of the terror of the unknown and the complaints and near mutiny of his crew, sailed on with frequent prayers to the Almighty for guidance. In his reports to the sovereigns of Spain, Columbus repeatedly asserted that his voyage was for the glory of God and the spread of the Christian faith. Properly do we honor him for his unyielding strength in the face of uncertainty and danger."

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/11/building-your-tabernacle?lang=eng

and this,

"There are biblical references to America, and we are all aware of Nephi’s vision wherein he sees “a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.” (1 Ne. 13:12.)

This of course refers to Christopher Columbus, and we have this further scripture foretelling the coming of the Pilgrims or Puritans:"

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/pioneers-are-still-needed?lang=eng

 

So, again, the question is asked, where exactly did "even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land", occur?

 

I certainly have nothing personal against Christopher Columbus. I just feel he does not necessarily seem to fulfill the prophecy of Nephi. It should be well known to forum members that I do not always follow the opinions/assumptions/errors of GAs. While I have not prayed upon this specific subject, it is not one in which I have been particularly impressed upon up to this point. Nonetheless, I reserve the right to pray to God about the possibility of other men fulfilling this prophecy. If you choose to believe those statements you quoted, that is of course your prerogative. I was merely addressing the wording of the prophecies themselves, and why it seems to me that they may not apply to Columbus. Certainly I believe the spirit wrought on other men who sought to worship in freedom to come to the new land of promise. This does not seem to have been a particular concern of Columbus, who I believe was Catholic, and I don't believe had any concerns about escaping the inquisition or the rule of state churches. The case can be made that Columbus was merely interested in making money by finding a new trade route.

[Rajah Manchou]

2 hours ago, Vance said:

Please feel free to provide a statement by any General Authority or General Officer of the Church that mentions anyone other than Christopher Columbus as a fulfillment of this prophecy.

I didn't say it wasn't Columbus. I said If the promised land truly is in in Mesoamerica, than Columbus is the most logical choice for the gentile.

 But I am not yet convinced that the promised land was in Mesoamerica.

[Rajah Manchou]

3 hours ago, Vance said:

I recognize that in this anniversary year a host of critics have spoken out against him. I do not dispute that there were others who came to this Western Hemisphere before him. But it was he who in faith lighted a lamp to look for a new way to China and who in the process discovered America. His was an awesome undertaking—to sail west across the unknown seas farther than any before him of his generation. He it was who, in spite of the terror of the unknown and the complaints and near mutiny of his crew, sailed on with frequent prayers to the Almighty for guidance. In his reports to the sovereigns of Spain, Columbus repeatedly asserted that his voyage was for the glory of God and the spread of the Christian faith. Properly do we honor him for his unyielding strength in the face of uncertainty and danger."

If Columbus was truly interested in spreading the Christian faith to India, then why didn't he just go to India like all the other missionaries before him? Christianity had been in India for almost 1500 years already, and in China almost the same. 

Columbus wanted to find a quicker way to India not so he could convert heathens but so he could collect treasure. 

3 hours ago, Vance said:

"There are biblical references to America, and we are all aware of Nephi’s vision wherein he sees “a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.” (1 Ne. 13:12.)

The Bible does not mention America. America was completely unknown to anybody in the west until 1492. Isaiah refers to Sinim, which is most likely China. Isaiah refers to the isles of the sea, which is most likely the islands of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Indian, Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. America might be included in the later category, but what Book of Mormon modelers tend to do is ignore all the other islands of the sea (including the ones Isaiah was actually referring to) in favor of America.

[waveslider]

2 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

America was completely unknown to anybody in the west until 1492.

Although I'm not aware of the Bible talking about the Americas, they did find cocaine, tobacco, and hashish in Egyptian mummies that predate 1492 so obviously there was some sort of trade going on with the Americas and someone had to have known about it.

[2BizE]

On 8/19/2016 at 0:22 PM, sam said:

For all the meso American apologist please stop endorsing the meso American model. It's been proven false.

In North America you have artifacts of metal shields, head plates, woven cloth clothing, Hebrew and old world culture, dna , matching Book of Mormon timelines, etc that matches in North American.

 

I think there is just as much chance of finding ancient Mormon artifacts as there is finding the city Minas Tirith in middle earth.

[Rajah Manchou]

29 minutes ago, waveslider said:

Although I'm not aware of the Bible talking about the Americas, they did find cocaine, tobacco, and hashish in Egyptian mummies that predate 1492 so obviously there was some sort of trade going on with the Americas and someone had to have known about it.

Hashish is found in the Middle East, so its no surprise to find it in mummies.
Nicotine is present in plants other than tobacco, these plants can be found in the old world.
Cocaine was reported in only one study, in mummies of uncertain provenance. Researchers have not been able to reproduce this finding.

I'm open to the possibility of trans-oceanic contact. But if there was trade going on between Egypt and the Americas it wasn't direct trade. Nephites in Mexico weren't sailing to Egypt with cocaine. Its more likely that Austronesians sailed to America with chickens and blowpipes and returned with sweet potatoes and cocaine.

Whoever was doing the trading would have kept it secret. For many centuries merchants in the markets of the Middle East and Europe had no clue where cinnamon came from.

[Rajah Manchou]

An interesting article about cinnamon, mummies, and Phoenicians. 

http://www.livescience.com/39011-cinnamon-trade-found-in-israel.html
 

Quote

Researchers analyzing the contents of 27 flasks from five archaeological sites in Israel that date back around 3,000 years have found that 10 of the flasks contain cinnamaldehyde, the compound that gives cinnamon its flavor, indicating that the spice was stored in these flasks.

At this time cinnamon was found in the Far East with the closest places to Israel being southern India and Sri Lanka located at least 3,000 miles (nearly 5,000 kilometers) away. A form of it was also found in the interior of Africa, but does not match the material found in these flasks.

This discovery "raises the intriguing possibility that long-range spice trade from the Far East westward may have taken place some 3,000 years ago," researchers write in a paper to be published in the journal Mediterranean Archaeology and Archaeometry. Although cinnamon can be purchased today at any grocery or bulk food store, 3,000 years ago, people in the Levant would have needed to take part in trade that extended beyond the edge of the known world in order to acquire it, something this discovery suggests they were willing to do.

This trade may go back ever further into antiquity and involve other goods and parts of the Middle East. The researchers note, for example, that black pepper from India has been found in the mummy of Ramesses II, a pharaoh of Egypt who lived more than 3,200 years ago. At the time of this trade, Israel's coastal inhabitants included the Phoenicians, a people so renowned for their seafaring skills the ancient writer Herodotus claimed they had succeeded in sailing around Africa around 600 BC (something scholars are doubtful of today).

But, while these people were great seafarers, they probably did not sail all the way to the Far East to get these goods, perhaps instead using intermediaries along the way.

"We don't think they sailed directly [to the Far East]; it was a very hard task even in the 16th century A.D." Dvory Namdar, a researcher with the Weizmann Institute of Science and Tel Aviv University, told LiveScience in an interview. Her research colleague Ayelet Gilboa, of the University of Haifa, also agreed in an interview that it was very doubtful there was a direct voyage.

Despite its widespread use, the origins of cinnamon was the Arab merchants’ best-kept secret until the early 16th century. To maintain their monopoly on the cinnamon trade and justify its exorbitant price, Arab traders wove colorful tales for their buyers about where and how they obtained the luxury spice. One such story, related by the 5th-century B.C. Greek historian Herodotus, said that enormous birds carried the cinnamon sticks to their nests perched high atop mountains that were insurmountable by any human. According to the story, people would leave large pieces of ox meat below these nests for the birds to collect. When the birds brought the meat into the nest, its weight would cause the nests to fall to the ground, allowing the cinnamon sticks stored within to be collected. Another tall tale reported that the cinnamon was found in deep canyons guarded by terrifying snakes, and first-century Roman philosopher Pliny the Elder proposed that cinnamon came from Ethiopia, carried on rafts with no oars or sails, powered by “man alone and his courage.”

Struggling to meet increasing demand, European explorers set out to find the spice’s mysterious source. Christopher Columbus wrote to Queen Isabella, claiming he had found cinnamon and rhubarb in the New World, but when he sent samples of his findings back home, it was discovered that the spice was not, in fact, the coveted cinnamon. (source)

 

Edited August 29, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[Vance]

The quote function doesn't seem to be working for me today.

Rajah Manchou said:

If Columbus was truly interested in spreading the Christian faith to India, then why didn't he just go to India like all the other missionaries before him? Christianity had been in India for almost 1500 years already, and in China almost the same. 

Columbus wanted to find a quicker way to India not so he could convert heathens but so he could collect treasure. 

From Columbus' log.

"Your Highnesses, as Catholic Christians, and princes who love and promote the holy Christian faith, and are enemies of the doctrine of Mahomet, and of all idolatry and heresy, determined to send me, Christopher Columbus, to the above-mentioned countries of India, to see the said princes, people, and territories, and to learn their disposition and the proper method of converting them to our holy faith; and furthermore directed that I should not proceed by land to the East, as is customary, but by a Westerly route, in which direction we have hitherto no certain evidence that any one has gone."

http://www.franciscan-archive.org/columbus/opera/excerpts.html

I suppose we could disregard what HE said and instead just accept your speculation.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Vance

[Vance]

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 8:16 PM, Rajah Manchou said:

Isaiah refers to the isles of the sea, which is most likely the islands of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Indian, Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. America might be included in the later category, but what Book of Mormon modelers tend to do is ignore all the other islands of the sea (including the ones Isaiah was actually referring to) in favor of America.

Your speculation versus Nephi's prophetic declarations.

2 Nephi 10:20 And now, my beloved brethren, seeing that our merciful God has given us so great knowledge concerning these things, let us remember him, and lay aside our sins, and not hang down our heads, for we are not cast off; nevertheless, we have been driven out of the land of our inheritance; but we have been led to a better land, for the Lord has made the sea our path, and we are upon an isle of the sea.

21 But great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea; wherefore as it says isles, there must needs be more than this, and they are inhabited also by our brethren.

[Vance]

14 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Christopher Columbus wrote to Queen Isabella, claiming he had found cinnamon and rhubarb in the New World, but when he sent samples of his findings back home, it was discovered that the spice was not, in fact, the coveted cinnamon. 

So, the spice wasn't cinnamon, ok, then what spice was it?

[Rajah Manchou]

32 minutes ago, Vance said:

"Your Highnesses, as Catholic Christians, and princes who love and promote the holy Christian faith, and are enemies of the doctrine of Mahomet, and of all idolatry and heresy, determined to send me, Christopher Columbus, to the above-mentioned countries of India, to see the said princes, people, and territories, and to learn their disposition and the proper method of converting them to our holy faith; and furthermore directed that I should not proceed by land to the East, as is customary, but by a Westerly route, in which direction we have hitherto no certain evidence that any one has gone."

http://www.franciscan-archive.org/columbus/opera/excerpts.html

I suppose we could disregard what HE said and instead just accept your speculation.

You're right, its speculation. Who knows what his true motives were? You can find arguments for a supremely pius Columbus who wanted nothing more than to bring souls to the Kingdom of Christ, and you can find valid counter-arguments for a profoundly greedy Columbus who sought riches beyond measure for the Kingdom of Spain.

Based on his actions upon reaching the New World, the truth is somewhere in the middle. 

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, Vance said:

Your speculation versus Nephi's prophetic declarations.

2 Nephi 10:20 And now, my beloved brethren, seeing that our merciful God has given us so great knowledge concerning these things, let us remember him, and lay aside our sins, and not hang down our heads, for we are not cast off; nevertheless, we have been driven out of the land of our inheritance; but we have been led to a better land, for the Lord has made the sea our path, and we are upon an isle of the sea.

21 But great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea; wherefore as it says isles, there must needs be more than this, and they are inhabited also by our brethren.

Read the verses above again, and try to identify the American continent in them. Try to identify where America is more special than any of the other isles of the sea.

Before Columbus died he wrote that he believed he had found the lost sheep in the East Indies, not realizing he had found the lost sheep of the West Indies. 

My speculation is that everything between the East Indies and the West Indies is "promised land", wherefore as it says isles entitled to the promises of the Lord, there must be more than this. I think Columbus wouldn't disagree.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Rajah Manchou