Plea to Meso American Apologist

[sam]

For all the meso American apologist please stop endorsing the meso American model. It's been proven false.

In North America you have artifacts of metal shields, head plates, woven cloth clothing, Hebrew and old world culture, dna , matching Book of Mormon timelines, etc that matches in North American.

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by sam
Grammar

[stemelbow]

I'm not sure you get the concept of a discussion board.  But, for me, your opinion is noted. 

[sam]

The purpose of this post was to show the meso American apologist are doing more harm than good. All these post about the Book of Mormon being fiction could not be more wrong. There are a large number of artifacts, dna evidence, etc supporting the Book of Mormon but its in North America.

[Danzo]

Just now, sam said:

The purpose of this post was to show the meso American apologist are doing more harm than good. All these post about the Book of Mormon being fiction could not be more wrong. There are a large number of artifacts, dna evidence, etc supporting the Book of Mormon but its in North America.

Try Showing, instead of telling, that is how you convince people.

Your conclusions are noted, but the reasons for your conclusions seem to be lacking (in this thread, anyway)

[cdowis]

I see that you are a disciple of Meldrum, and this is clearly a troll to give him undeserved attention on the board.

No thanks, I'll pass.

[JAHS]

54 minutes ago, sam said:

For all the meso American apologist please stop endorsing the meso American model. It's been proven false.

Not sure how you can use the word "proven" false, unless an alternate model has been "proven" true, which none has so far. Perhaps there's not as much evidence for one compared to the other, but unless Nephi himself comes back and tells us where it all happen I don't think we can use the word "proven" for any case.

 

[sam]

Danzo

That's a good point danzo Mr McKane has posted confirmed artifacts that are found in North America that date to the Book of Mormon time period see links. 

It also shows native Americans practiced Hebrew beliefs and culture.

Artifacts

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-3/

Hebrew cultural ties to Native Americans.

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-4/

DNA evidence

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/x2aj/

[sam]

1 hour ago, sam said:

For all the meso American apologist please stop endorsing the meso American model. It's been proven false.

In North America you have artifacts of metal shields, head plates, woven cloth clothing, Hebrew and old world culture, dna , matching Book of Mormon timelines, etc that matches in North American.

 

If there is no evidence in North America feel free to explain away confirmed Book of Mormon type artifacts.

[sam]

10 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Not sure how you can use the word "proven" false, unless an alternate model has been "proven" true, which none has so far. Perhaps there's not as much evidence for one compared to the other, but unless Nephi himself comes back and tells us where it all happen I don't think we can use the word "proven" for any case.

 

The fact that middle eastern dna is found in North American Indians and the hill Cumorah is in the place that has the highest concentrations of this dna marker is really good evidence that is being ignored.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, sam said:

The fact that middle eastern dna is found in North American Indians and the hill Cumorah is in the place that has the highest concentrations of this dna marker is really good evidence that is being ignored.

Perhaps because the timing for the marker to have entered the population is not consistent with BoM time periods, iirc.  If you are going to use the science around DNA, you need to accept all the essential rules attached to it and not just those you like.

[JAHS]

8 minutes ago, sam said:

If there is no evidence in North America feel free to explain away confirmed Book of Mormon type artifacts.

The key word is "type". How do we know those artifacts were actually owned by any Nephites or Lamanites?
It's the scientist in me that does this. Very seldom do we jump to any conclusions without more testing and evidence, the results of which that can make a direct connection.

Edited August 19, 2016 by JAHS

[sam]

DNA distrobution

Just now, Calm said:

Perhaps because the timing for the marker to have entered the population is not consistent with BoM time periods, iirc.  If you are going to use the science around DNA, you need to accept all the essential rules attached to it and not just those you like.

Here is a posted reply about dna distrubtion, cultural evidence not matching up with radio carbon dating see link

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/x2aj/

I have to go with the scientific evidence that is most accurate when they conflict with each other. As you stated there were multiple migrations to the Americas. But migrations do not fit the terminology very well. There were multiple trans ocean voyages. To include a Polynesian, Australian, and most definitely a middle eastern voyage all three of those dna markers are found in the Americas. The middle east marker found among North American Indians. The dna evidence is supportive of some Asian haplo groups making it to the Americas via ocean voyages. Certain Asian haplogroups are missing in key areas to show a migration across a barren ice bridge. Some of the Asian haplo groups being absent are in modern day and paleo Eskimos. The biggest argument that once was against the Book of Mormon in terms of DNA is now its biggest defense ironic I know. What the problem is dna evidence conflicts with the dating of Haplo Group x and other Haplo groups, unless of course cave men were sailing across the oceans. Another example and mystery is that there was a migration to Australia 40000 years ago. Last time I checked Australia was an island. I’m going with the dna evidence its supported by cultural evidence. Scientist need to make the variables with radio carbon dating match up with cultural and dna evidence. They changed the first dating of Kennwick man by 3450 years. That same number used in the opposite direction falls well within the Book of Mormon timeline.

The Book of Mormon mentions three migrations to North America. For those voyages not mentioned in the Book of Mormon I think it’s safe to assume God had his hand in it. The Assyrian timeline falls within the Book of Mormon. What I found out recently is that Chief Joseph Cuneiform tablet specifically names the moon Goddess nanna. I wrote in my Hebrew and Cultural links that I believed the crescent shape objects found in prehistory archeological sites and worn by early Native Americans was an Assyrian moon God Sin. Doing more research sin was the incorrect god the correct god is the moon goddess Nanna. Chief Joseph had on his medicine bag an Assyrian star of Ashur. His medicine bag probably had the cuneiform tablet that mentions one of the gods they and their ancestors worshipped Nanna. Inna another god that Assyrians worshipped is on the Shawnee creek stone. The cultural and dna evidence all match up. It conflicts by thousands of years with current dating of middle eastern dna arrival to America.

The reasoning for this belief is that archeologist were surprised that Hopewell (Nephites) had virtually no crescent shaped artifacts. While other non Hopewell sites had numerous crescent shaped artifacts. I will have to add this later. Sargon II who deported the tribe of Manasseh to the Assyrian Empire specifically worshipped the Assyrian god Nanna. His daughters were made the priestess of this crescent shaped God. Also one researcher describes the name nanna as being specially to the Assyrian culture.

[sam]

DNA distrobution

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Perhaps because the timing for the marker to have entered the population is not consistent with BoM time periods, iirc.  If you are going to use the science around DNA, you need to accept all the essential rules attached to it and not just those you like.

Here is a posted reply about dna distrubtion, cultural evidence not matching up with radio carbon dating see link

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/x2aj/

I have to go with the scientific evidence that is most accurate when they conflict with each other. As you stated there were multiple migrations to the Americas. But migrations do not fit the terminology very well. There were multiple trans ocean voyages. To include a Polynesian, Australian, and most definitely a middle eastern voyage all three of those dna markers are found in the Americas. The middle east marker found among North American Indians. The dna evidence is supportive of some Asian haplo groups making it to the Americas via ocean voyages. Certain Asian haplogroups are missing in key areas to show a migration across a barren ice bridge. Some of the Asian haplo groups being absent are in modern day and paleo Eskimos. The biggest argument that once was against the Book of Mormon in terms of DNA is now its biggest defense ironic I know. What the problem is dna evidence conflicts with the dating of Haplo Group x and other Haplo groups, unless of course cave men were sailing across the oceans. Another example and mystery is that there was a migration to Australia 40000 years ago. Last time I checked Australia was an island. I’m going with the dna evidence its supported by cultural evidence. Scientist need to make the variables with radio carbon dating match up with cultural and dna evidence. They changed the first dating of Kennwick man by 3450 years. That same number used in the opposite direction falls well within the Book of Mormon timeline.

The Book of Mormon mentions three migrations to North America. For those voyages not mentioned in the Book of Mormon I think it’s safe to assume God had his hand in it. The Assyrian timeline falls within the Book of Mormon. What I found out recently is that Chief Joseph Cuneiform tablet specifically names the moon Goddess nanna. I wrote in my Hebrew and Cultural links that I believed the crescent shape objects found in prehistory archeological sites and worn by early Native Americans was an Assyrian moon God Sin. Doing more research sin was the incorrect god the correct god is the moon goddess Nanna. Chief Joseph had on his medicine bag an Assyrian star of Ashur. His medicine bag probably had the cuneiform tablet that mentions one of the gods they and their ancestors worshipped Nanna. Inna another god that Assyrians worshipped is on the Shawnee creek stone. The cultural and dna evidence all match up. It conflicts by thousands of years with current dating of middle eastern dna arrival to America.

The reasoning for this belief is that archeologist were surprised that Hopewell (Nephites) had virtually no crescent shaped artifacts. While other non Hopewell sites had numerous crescent shaped artifacts. I will have to add this later. Sargon II who deported the tribe of Manasseh to the Assyrian Empire specifically worshipped the Assyrian god Nanna. His daughters were made the priestess of this crescent shaped God. Also one researcher describes the name nanna as being specially to the Assyrian culture.

[Calm]

The way the Church approaches DNA is appropriate:

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng

"Basic principles of population genetics suggest the need for a more careful approach to the data. The conclusions of genetics, like those of any science, are tentative, and much work remains to be done to fully understand the origins of the native populations of the Americas. Nothing is known about the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples, and even if their genetic profile were known, there are sound scientific reasons that it might remain undetected. For these same reasons, arguments that some defenders of the Book of Mormon make based on DNA studies are also speculative. In short, DNA studies cannot be used decisively to either affirm or reject the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon."

[sam]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

The way the Church approaches DNA is appropriate:

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng

"Basic principles of population genetics suggest the need for a more careful approach to the data. The conclusions of genetics, like those of any science, are tentative, and much work remains to be done to fully understand the origins of the native populations of the Americas. Nothing is known about the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples, and even if their genetic profile were known, there are sound scientific reasons that it might remain undetected. For these same reasons, arguments that some defenders of the Book of Mormon make based on DNA studies are also speculative. In short, DNA studies cannot be used decisively to either affirm or reject the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon."

I don't care what the church says about physical artifact and dna evidence. They don't need to prove the Book of Mormon is historical the spirit does that. But the facts are, artifacts and dna evidence match up in North America. So does the churches only Hill Cumorah visitor center where the last battles of the Nephites and Lamanites took place.

[bcuzbcuz]

13 minutes ago, sam said:

Danzo

That's a good point danzo Mr McKane has posted confirmed artifacts that are found in North America that date to the Book of Mormon time period see links. 

It also shows native Americans practiced Hebrew beliefs and culture.

Artifacts

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-3/

Hebrew cultural ties to Native Americans.

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-4/

DNA evidence

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/x2aj/

Repeating the same information three times doesn't make your argument three times as strong. The author is convinced that the Hopewell natives hold the key to understanding the BofM.

Sorry, it ain't gonna happen.

Read further into the site when the author explains why he leaves Mormonism.

[sam]

The author who wrote those essays, Mr. McKane did not leave Mormonism he is a tbm. The blog has pro lds and critical lds articles on it. The creator of the blog is critical of the church. I'm not sure if the creator of the blog has left the church.

 

[Johnnie Cake]

Quote

Sam: In North America you have artifacts of metal shields, head plates, woven cloth clothing, Hebrew and old world culture, dna , matching Book of Mormon timelines, etc that matches in North American.

Ahhh....I don't think the words artifacts of metal shields, head plates, woven cloth clothing, Hebrew and old world culture, dna mean what you think they mean

[sam]

1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Ahhh....I don't think the words artifacts of metal shields, head plates, woven cloth clothing, Hebrew and old world culture, dna mean what you think they mean

No that is exactly what I mean.

[Johnnie Cake]

With the exception of maybe woven clothes (does the BoM claim that its characters were involved in woven clothe?) none of these items support Book of Mormon claims

Edited August 19, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[Danzo]

35 minutes ago, sam said:

the hill Cumorah is in the place that has the highest concentrations of this dna marker 

didn't see any information in the articles you linked to discussing the DNA concentrations on the Hill Cumorah, 

 

 

[sam]

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

didn't see any information in the articles you linked to discussing the DNA concentrations on the Hill Cumorah, 

 

 

The highest concentrations of Haplo group x is found in Israel the second highest concentration of of Haplo group x is the Ojibwa Indians. The Great lake Indians have the highest concentrations of haplo group x.

[sam]

8 minutes ago, Danzo said:

didn't see any information in the articles you linked to discussing the DNA concentrations on the Hill Cumorah, 

 

 

To see more in-depth info about dna see link below.

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-2/

[halconero]

 

[sam]

27 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

With the exception of maybe woven clothes (does the BoM claim that its characters were involved in woven clothe?) none of these items support Book of Mormon claims

Book of Mormon mentions metal shields, head plates, metal jewelry and metal weapons. The Hopewell Indians had metal shields,  head plates, metal jewelry and metal weapons. Their timeline is also is a match to the Book of Mormon.