Plea to Meso American Apologist

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, Brant Gardner said:

What I don't know, not being a geologist, is how large the explosion would have been to create those conditions compared to the ice core data. I'll try to get some information on that.

If you know somebody that has an answer to that question, than I'll wait. If it is possible that large eruptions occurred in 30 AD without showing up in the core data than no need to stress about alternative explanations. Volcano is the most likely, just seems like it was a quiet century.

But also curious to know what explanation an expert might have for the temperature spike and/or tree ring anomalies that occur around 30 AD. Whatever could cause something that sudden could provide some hints.



 

[Vance]

On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 0:22 PM, sam said:

For all the meso American apologist please stop endorsing the meso American model. It's been proven false.

In North America you have artifacts of metal shields, head plates, woven cloth clothing, Hebrew and old world culture, dna , matching Book of Mormon timelines, etc that matches in North American.

 

I am looking for a good explanation from the North American Model apologists for how this can be explained away.

1 Nephi 13:10 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren.

  11 And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren.

  12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

Pray tell, when and where did Columbus personally visit the North American Model Lamanites?

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, Vance said:

I am looking for a good explanation from the North American Model apologists for how this can be explained away.

1 Nephi 13:10 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren.

  11 And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren.

  12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

Pray tell, when and where did Columbus personally visit the North American Model Lamanites?

Did Joseph Smith ever say that man was Columbus, or is that an assumption of later GAs?

[Rajah Manchou]

4 hours ago, Vance said:

I am looking for a good explanation from the North American Model apologists for how this can be explained away.

1 Nephi 13:10 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren.

  11 And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren.

  12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

Pray tell, when and where did Columbus personally visit the North American Model Lamanites?

But all the other verses in 1 Nephi 13 seem to reference North America and not Mesoamerica.

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them.
17 And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.

I guess that could describe Mexico just as well as the United States, but is that the preferred interpretation?
 

[PeterPear]

On 8/21/2016 at 11:53 PM, Brant Gardner said:

So is repeating without responding. I'll ask more simply. Which prophet made the mistake of ignoring Joseph when they declared that there is no revealed position on geography?

 

Revealed as in which part of the geography?

Actual locations of cities? Exact locations of Book of Mormon place names? The Hill Cumorah? The clueless MA theory you propose goes so far as claiming the Hill Cumorah (New York) is a worthless pile of gravel that could never contain a cave. Silly nonsense. Your theory has to attack a hill, of all things. 

YOUR theory claims and implies accounts given by Brigham Young told to him by Oliver Cowdery of the hill being opened to him and Joseph Smith, was essentially fabricated and can't be trusted because it was a second hand account by Brigham Young. YOUR theory claims the testimonies or accounts by the men in Zions Camp who wrote of Zelph can't be trusted because they were'nt exactly the same with some being written down years later.

You yourself to bolster the silly MA theory had to claim directions in the Book of Mormon are skewed because the Isthmus of Tehuantepec runs East West. Making the Nephite, Jaredite and Lamanite people for thousands of years out to be some incompent idiots who couldn't figure true North South.

Your theory attacks common sense and Church History and past Church Leaders. Over the decades, your theory has attacked anything related to Book of Mormon geography including Historical events and documents including the Wentworth Letter. It's nothing but excuses after excuses all to discount anything unless it points to a 500 x 200 mile location in Mesoamerica, the dimensions that Dr. Sorenson has proclaimed the Jaredite, Nephite, and Lamanite nations resided strictly within for thousands of years and never left it, until a single solitary Nephite wandered northward to a lowly nondescript hill in western New York.

Your MA theory is a whited sepulchre full of dead men's bones. It's a stinking fraud.

Thus Dr. Sorenson's attack claiming Joseph Smith didn't know about "geography" so he, you and all you "Doctors" of letters, you Scribes, can step in his place and waste your mortal probation proving Joseph Smith was wrong.

If you can't be civil in disagreement you need to find another board.

[Rajah Manchou]

2 hours ago, PeterPear said:

You yourself to bolster the silly MA theory had to claim directions in the Book of Mormon are skewed because the Isthmus of Tehuantepec runs East West. Making the Nephite, Jaredite and Lamanite people for thousands of years out to be some incompent idiots who couldn't figure true North South.

All models are guilty of some twisting and bending of time and space to make things fit. 

For example:


There is supposed to be a narrow neck of land somewhere south of Cumorah. The Heartland model does not resolve the north-south isthmus problem any better than the Meso model does. That along with a number of other problems demonstrate that the heartland model doesn't always get cardinal directions (not to mention distances) right either.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Rajah Manchou
Trying be more respectful

[Brant Gardner]

4 hours ago, PeterPear said:

Revealed as in which part of the geography?

Actual locations of cities? Exact locations of Book of Mormon place names? The Hill Cumorah? The clueless MA theory you propose goes so far as claiming the Hill Cumorah (New York) is a worthless pile of gravel that could never contain a cave. Silly nonsense. Your theory has to attack a hill, of all things. 

So, responding still involves ignoring. 

Since you have diverted into attacking my understanding of the Book of Mormon's hill Cumorah, perhaps you could tell me why you think Mormon was mistaken?

Quote

6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.
(Mormon 6:6)

Although I think it is clear that "save it were" is used with the meaning of "except," I'll note that in case you don't think it as obvious. That phrase has been the subject of some study by Skousen and Carmack, and it is a more archaic way of saying "except." Mormon is pretty clear that the plates that Joseph took out of the NY hill were not buried in Cumorah. What do you know that Mormon didn't?

[Brant Gardner]

5 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

All models are guilty of some twisting and bending of time and space to make things fit. 

For example:


There is supposed to be a narrow neck of land somewhere south of Cumorah. The Heartland model does not resolve the north-south isthmus problem any better than the Meso model does. That along with a number of other problems demonstrate that the heartland model doesn't always get cardinal directions (not to mention distances) right either.

I just noticed that the relationship of Zarahemla and Cumorah is interesting. The Nephites flee northward as they attempt to escape the Lamanites. They were north of Zarahemla before continuing further north to Cumorah. If I were north of this Zarahemla and had do describe the majority of my journey to this Cumorah, 'north' would not be the most salient direction. I think you are correct that this model has some direction problems (among other issues).

[sam]

Until FAIR gets some pro North American Book of Mormon Geography researchers/volunteers I really have no respect for FAIR. They have only one agenda and it has nothing to do with science but protecting their egos and livelihood with the Meso American model. I understand the livelihood part of it but the ego part I think is disgraceful. This will probably be the fifth time I have been kicked off Mormon dialogue for talking and posting evidence about the North American model.

D&C54:8

8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

D&C28

8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.

9 And now, behold, I say unto you that it is not revealed, and no man knoweth where the city Zion shall be built, but it shall be given hereafter. Behold, I say unto you that it shall be on the borders by the Lamanites.

The lord sent his missionaries to Native American tribes for the teaching of the Lamanites not to Meso America. That should say something for who the descendants of the Lamanites are. 

[Rajah Manchou]

2 minutes ago, sam said:

This will probably be the fifth time I have been kicked off Mormon dialogue for talking and posting evidence about the North American model.

sam, if you're kicked off its not because you're talking and posting evidence about the North America model. I've been here almost a year posting stuff on a model that is much more controversial than Heartland and haven't been booted. People may not agree with you or may not engage with you, but you won't be kicked off if you remain respectful. 

[sam]

4 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

I just noticed that the relationship of Zarahemla and Cumorah is interesting. The Nephites flee northward as they attempt to escape the Lamanites. They were north of Zarahemla before continuing further north to Cumorah. If I were north of this Zarahemla and had do describe the majority of my journey to this Cumorah, 'north' would not be the most salient direction. I think you are correct that this model has some direction problems (among other issues).

There are two options for a narrow neck the narrow neck between Lake Erie and Lake Huron is south of Cumorah, my personal opinion is the narrow neck and the narrow passage are two different points of land.

[Brant Gardner]

5 minutes ago, sam said:

Until FAIR gets some pro North American Book of Mormon Geography researchers/volunteers I really have no respect for FAIR.

Sam, who would you suggest? Do you know of anyone who has addressed the issues I've mentioned in this thread? 

Quote

They have only one agenda and it has nothing to do with science but protecting their egos and livelihood with the Meso American model. I understand the livelihood part of it but the ego part I think is disgraceful.

That is an interesting accusation. Let's start with science. Are you suggesting that you have used science to bolster your arguments? Current science suggests that your DNA evidence is outdated and incorrect. Archaeological science tells us that there is nothing in Hopewell culture (well, they did have people) that matches the Book of Mormon. There is insufficient agriculture, insufficient community size, and no indication of complex political systems. Geological science tells us that the Madrid fault hypothesis cannot meet all of the requirements of the 3 Nephi event. Exactly what science are you referring to?

I happen to know that livelihood isn't the reason that Mesoamericanists have adopted their position. I do find your accusation about ego disturbing. Would you be able to show cases where we have argued based on our egos rather than on evidence?

 

[rodheadlee]

24 minutes ago, sam said:

Until FAIR gets some pro North American Book of Mormon Geography researchers/volunteers I really have no respect for FAIR. They have only one agenda and it has nothing to do with science but protecting their egos and livelihood with the Meso American model. I understand the livelihood part of it but the ego part I think is disgraceful. This will probably be the fifth time I have been kicked off Mormon dialogue for talking and posting evidence about the North American model.

D&C54:8

8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

D&C28

8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.

9 And now, behold, I say unto you that it is not revealed, and no man knoweth where the city Zion shall be built, but it shall be given hereafter. Behold, I say unto you that it shall be on the borders by the Lamanites.

The lord sent his missionaries to Native American tribes for the teaching of the Lamanites not to Meso America. That should say something for who the descendants of the Lamanites are. 

Have you ever done a ward search for Guatemala? If the Lord didn't send any missionaries to Meso America then how did all of those wards and Temples get there? The boundries you speak of are drawn on a map by Joseph Smith and they go from Sentrill America to Arizona to Utah to Missouri. There is a thread on this map on this very board where you can view the mp.. I don't know why the Heartlanders always try to cut off the bottom of the map.You aren't prejudiced are you? 

[Rajah Manchou]

11 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

There is a thread on this map on this very board where you can view the mp.. I don't know why the Heartlanders always try to cut off the bottom of the map.You aren't prejudiced are you? 

Prejudiced against West Texas and Florida it seems

But good to see Ciudad Rio Bravo made the cut.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[sam]

4 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

I just noticed that the relationship of Zarahemla and Cumorah is interesting. The Nephites flee northward as they attempt to escape the Lamanites. They were north of Zarahemla before continuing further north to Cumorah. If I were north of this Zarahemla and had do describe the majority of my journey to this Cumorah, 'north' would not be the most salient direction. I think you are correct that this model has some direction problems (among other issues).

I'm not a big fan of this map I don't think Zarahemla did extend west very far past the Mississippi river and Cumorah is horrible placed and is not that big.

 

Mormon 2:3 "therefore they would not fight, and they began to retreat towards the north countries." The retreat North included all of the Land Zarahemla. That could include the lower areas of what are now Iowa Ohio and Illinois moving north to great lakes area.

[Rajah Manchou]

8 minutes ago, sam said:

I'm not a big fan of this map I don't think Zarahemla did extend west very far past the Mississippi river and Cumorah is horrible placed and is not that big.

So where would you place the Hill Cumorah?

Edited August 23, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[sam]

8 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

So where would you place the Hill Cumorah?

The hill Cumorah is at the churches official Hill Cumorah visit center. This map of the land Cumorah I think is completely off. I have Cumorah as maybe 100 square miles.

[RevTestament]

10 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

But all the other verses in 1 Nephi 13 seem to reference North America and not Mesoamerica.

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them.
17 And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.

I guess that could describe Mexico just as well as the United States, but is that the preferred interpretation?
 

Yep, I didn't bring that up. I was waiting for a challenge I guess

But doesn't sound too much like Mexico to me. Did mother Spain fight against the Spanish colonists there or just steal all the gold?

Edited August 23, 2016 by RevTestament

[sam]

3 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Yep, I didn't bring that up. I was waiting for a challenge I guess

But doesn't sound too much like Mexico to me. Did mother Spain fight against the Spanish colonists there or just steel all the gold?

1NE 13 chapter heading does talk about the restoring of the Gospel its a safe guess that it is referring to North America and its wars to establish as a independent country from Great Britain. That's just my guess though.

Nephi sees in vision the church of the devil set up among the Gentiles, the discovery and colonizing of America, the loss of many plain and precious parts of the Bible, the resultant state of gentile apostasy, the restoration of the gospel, the coming forth of latter-day scripture, and the building up of Zion. About 600–592 B.C.

[RevTestament]

10 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

All models are guilty of some twisting and bending of time and space to make things fit. 

For example:


There is supposed to be a narrow neck of land somewhere south of Cumorah. The Heartland model does not resolve the north-south isthmus problem any better than the Meso model does. That along with a number of other problems demonstrate that the heartland model doesn't always get cardinal directions (not to mention distances) right either.

It seems possible to me that the "heartland" model is more about selling tours over half the United States than being true to scripture. But then the mesoamericanists are selling books and maybe tours too..... Haven't really seen anyone bite the Baja bug yet tho...

[sam]

58 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Have you ever done a ward search for Guatemala? If the Lord didn't send any missionaries to Meso America then how did all of those wards and Temples get there? The boundries you speak of are drawn on a map by Joseph Smith and they go from Sentrill America to Arizona to Utah to Missouri. There is a thread on this map on this very board where you can view the mp.. I don't know why the Heartlanders always try to cut off the bottom of the map.You aren't prejudiced are you? 

What makes you think that Nephites were migrating 2000 miles back and forth from Missouri to Guatemala.

[Rajah Manchou]

14 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

It seems possible to me that the "heartland" model is more about selling tours over half the United States than being true to scripture. But then the mesoamericanists are selling books and maybe tours too..... Haven't really seen anyone bite the Baja bug yet tho...

I'm giving Malay Book of Mormon tours away for free if anybody is interested. Mostly because the beaches west of the Wilderness of Hermounts and the coasts of Cumorah are aaamazing.

[RevTestament]

2 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I'm giving Malay Book of Mormon tours away for free if anybody is interested. Mostly because the beaches west of the Wilderness of Hermounts and the coasts of Cumorah are aaamazing.

Hey, you are so cool. Will you also pay for my plane ticket?

[RevTestament]

26 minutes ago, sam said:

1NE 13 chapter heading does talk about the restoring of the Gospel its a safe guess that it is referring to North America and its wars to establish as a independent country from Great Britain. That's just my guess though.

Nephi sees in vision the church of the devil set up among the Gentiles, the discovery and colonizing of America, the loss of many plain and precious parts of the Bible, the resultant state of gentile apostasy, the restoration of the gospel, the coming forth of latter-day scripture, and the building up of Zion. About 600–592 B.C.

It also says they come to the promised land to be free from bondage.... doesn't sound too much to me to be like the Catholic countries of Meso and S America[did they escape the Spanish Inquisition?] ... In fact all the revelations in D&C speak of N. America. That is also where New Jerusalem will be. So I am in agreement that it seems to be in N. America or actually the United States. I just don't believe the "heartland" model. So I am putting my foot where my mouth is, and am working on it...

[sam]

17 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I'm giving Malay Book of Mormon tours away for free if anybody is interested. Mostly because the beaches west of the Wilderness of Hermounts and the coasts of Cumorah are aaamazing.

I have a map that will make sense but first I need to finish mapping the majority of the Book of Mormon then I can post it.