Plea to Meso American Apologist

[RevTestament]

12 hours ago, PeterPear said:

Your MA theory is a whited sepulchre full of dead men's bones. It's a stinking fraud.

Thus Dr. Sorenson's attack claiming Joseph Smith didn't know about "geography" so he, you and all you "Doctors" of letters, you Scribes, can step in his place and waste your mortal probation proving Joseph Smith was wrong.

Actually, I believe the Mesoamerican theorist scholars have done a lot of important work, and should be thanked for a lot of the good scholarship they have done. There is no need to be rude or derogatory even if you disagree with them about location as I do.

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, sam said:

Until FAIR gets some pro North American Book of Mormon Geography researchers/volunteers I really have no respect for FAIR. They have only one agenda and it has nothing to do with science but protecting their egos and livelihood with the Meso American model. [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.] I understand the livelihood part of it ...

Yeah, volunteers are quite often interested in protecting their livelihoods, not to mention amassing a great deal of filthy lucre beyond that ...  

[Calm]

4 hours ago, sam said:

They have only one agenda and it has nothing to do with science but protecting their egos and livelihood with the Meso American model. I understand the livelihood part of it but the ego part I think is disgraceful.

No one at Fairmormon gets paid for working with geography or the MesoAmerican model.  No one gets paid at all save for the Bookstore manager who has nothing to do with the apologetics side.   Publishing and presenting at Fairmormon does not count, as far as I am aware, for any university's publishing/presenting requirement so it does nothing for the livelihood.  Publishing books on the subject brings in little enough income that most likely does not cover the cost of producing those books since the time and resources could have been put towards more income generating projects.  People are doing this for personal interests, because they enjoy the subject or they want to help others.  They are shelling out much time and money, sometimes thousands for the privilege to go and talk to people around the world in church settings where at most their expenses are covered and often are not.

Our business model does not follow the FIRM Foundation's version which has turned their promotion of their Heartland theory into generating side business of tours, mass conferences where it appears that anyone can purchase a booth with little or no correlation to BoM Geography.  Please do not confuse us with theirs or any others.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, sam said:

1NE 13 chapter heading does talk about the restoring of the Gospel

Where do you see the chapter headings coming from?

[sam]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

No one at Fairmormon gets paid for working with geography or the MesoAmerican model.  No one gets paid at all save for the Bookstore manager who has nothing to do with the apologetics side.   Publishing and presenting at Fairmormon does not count, as far as I am aware, for any university's publishing/presenting requirement so it does nothing for the livelihood.  Publishing books on the subject brings in little enough income that most likely does not cover the cost of producing those books since the time and resources could have been put towards more income generating projects.  People are doing this for personal interests, because they enjoy the subject or they want to help others.  They are shelling out much time and money, sometimes thousands for the privilege to go and talk to people around the world in church settings where at most their expenses are covered and often are not.

Our business model does not follow the FIRM Foundation's version which has turned their promotion of their Heartland theory into generating side business of tours, mass conferences where it appears that anyone can purchase a booth with little or no correlation to BoM Geography.  Please do not confuse us with theirs or any others.

That's even more reason to publish pro north American research articles then let the regular person decide for themselves were the Book of Mormon took place.

[sam]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Where do you see the chapter headings coming from?

I don't know wrote the chapter headings but I can guarantee it had to be approved from the first presidency and its inline with what the presidency believes today.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, RevTestament said:

It seems possible to me that the "heartland" model is more about selling tours over half the United States than being true to scripture. But then the mesoamericanists are selling books and maybe tours too..... Haven't really seen anyone bite the Baja bug yet tho...

I don't believe any Mesoamericanist associated with Fairmormon does books and tours as their primary income producer as is happening with some Heartlanders (not automatically a bad thing as long as they aren't promoting hoaxes and such, which some are unfortunately).  The market for books from the Mesoamericanists tends to be quite a bit smaller given they tend to be more from an academic viewpoint, even when popularized.

sam, not RevTest said:

Quote

Until FAIR gets some pro North American Book of Mormon Geography researchers/volunteers I really have no respect for FAIR. 

We don't vet volunteers on their preferred BoM geography.  We could have a number of Heartlanders in fact, only minority of the FM group actually get into talking about geography and yes, most of these hold Mesoamerican positions but some are still unsettled and occasionally we get a few who speak up in support of the Heartland and no, they are not 'shouted down'. The only issue that I can remember coming up was quite some time back one FM volunteer spent all of his time promoting a particular (currently Heartlander) individual's events and did nothing and I mean nothing to contribute to the greater FM mission.  There is currently one who lets us know of various Heartlander events but is contributing in other ways so he is treated just like the rest of us who have pet theories we like to discuss (and there are a lot of those). 

Edited August 24, 2016 by Calm

[sam]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Yeah, volunteers are quite often interested in protecting their livelihoods, not to mention amassing a great deal of filthy lucre beyond that ...  

Ya the volunteers at FAIR never publish books about BOM Meso American Geography.

[Atheist Mormon]

On 8/19/2016 at 1:22 PM, sam said:

For all the meso American apologist please stop endorsing the meso American model. It's been proven false.

In North America you have artifacts of metal shields, head plates, woven cloth clothing, Hebrew and old world culture, dna , matching Book of Mormon timelines, etc that matches in North American.

 

Either way.........

It is a huge waste of time......

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, sam said:

That's even more reason to publish pro north American research articles then let the regular person decide for themselves were the Book of Mormon took place.

I don't think you understand how FM operates.  Unless someone volunteers material, we don't have stuff to work with to begin with.   Then we are not just going to put stuff up that does not meet a certain academic standard also.  Articles that ignore fundamental problems with DNA timing or use questionable artifacts aren't going to be put up by FM.  Mark Wright, who presented at last year's FM conference, has published with us a version that references the "Heartland", see:

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2013-fair-conference/2013-heartland-as-hinterland-the-mesoamerican-core-and-north-american-periphery-of-book-of-mormon-geography

Quote

 

It’s a pleasure to be here today to talk about something I have been trying to avoid for several years now: Book of Mormon geography. It is a messy and oftentimes ugly endeavor. The Church, of course, has no official position on where the Book of Mormon took place. Nevertheless, there have been heated debates concerning its geography for the better part of the last century. Currently, the most bitter divide is between those who advocate for a Mesoamerican setting and those who believe that the “Heartland” of the United States is the true location. Despite what my seemingly inflammatory title may suggest, this paper is actually an attempt to synthesize some aspects of these two models as much as possible and build a bridge between the two camps(though I do fear the bridge may end up like the one in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom).

My basic thesis is this: The core locations and events detailed in the text of the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica, but many Nephites and Lamanites migrated and established settlements far northward of the core area and are thus simply outside the scope of the text. I am certainly not the first to make this argument or note the significance of this northward migration, but from countless conversations I have had about Book of Mormon geography over the past few years I have found that many people are unfamiliar with the ideas. Just in this audience today, I can point to the work of John Sorenson, Tyler Livingston, and Matt Roper, and I’m admittedly doing little more than repackaging their previous research and giving it a catchy name.

Which brings me to the Hinterland Hypothesis.

The term hinterland is used in reference to regions that are remote from urban areas. They are at the outer fringes or periphery of a core urban population. Large-scale migrations from the core out to the periphery and beyond are not uncommon due to population pressures or other causes. In Pre-Columbian Mesoamerica, for example, city-states often organized migrations to establish military garrisons or trading posts at the periphery of their domains. 1 As Latter-day Saints, we, of all people should understand the function of migrations, as our history and identity are largely defined by it: movements from Kirtland to Nauvoo and the exodus west. As soon as the Saints were established in the Salt Lake Valley, colonies began springing up the hinterlands: in Southern Utah, Nevada, California, and even as far down as Chihuahua, Mexico...

 

There is no intention to ignore other theories if they put in the quality work that matches Mark and other researchers' efforts.  Show FM this quality of work and it is quite possible, even probable imo that it will go up (I am not involved in the BoM stuff as that is not my area of expertise so I can only offer relatively vague standards, if you are interested in learning more, I suggest asking FM through the contact info for the requirements of publishing with us).

[Calm]

3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Haven't really seen anyone bite the Baja bug yet tho...

There is actually one FM member who seems to be highly interested in Baja as a possibility, but he is not a researcher for that field himself so only points interesting stuff out to us now and then.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I'm giving Malay Book of Mormon tours away for free if anybody is interested. Mostly because the beaches west of the Wilderness of Hermounts and the coasts of Cumorah are aaamazing.

I might take you up on that in a few years.

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, sam said:

Ya the volunteers at FAIR never publish books about BOM Meso American Geography.

Again, FM does not vet volunteers for their geography preferences.  We don't set up booths at Heartland conventions promoting joining FM, but we also don't do that at any other convention either.  Mesoamerican presenters are mainly found through being friends of our volunteers, so who you hang out with does matter, I don't deny that.  And given the amount of Mesoamerican stuff on our site, I can see why heartlanders don't feel inclined to join us that often.  But we do have some, just none that have desired to write up anything as of yet.

[sam]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Again, FM does not vet volunteers for their geography preferences.  We don't set up booths at Heartland conventions promoting joining FM, but we also don't do that at any other convention either.  Mesoamerican presenters are mainly found through being friends of our volunteers, so who you hang out with does matter, I don't deny that.  And given the amount of Mesoamerican stuff on our site, I can see why heartlanders don't feel inclined to join us that often.  But we do have some, just none that have desired to write up anything as of yet.

That has not been my experience.

[RevTestament]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don't believe any Mesoamericanist associated with Fairmormon does books and tours as their primary income producer as is happening with some Heartlanders (not automatically a bad thing as long as they aren't promoting hoaxes and such, which some are unfortunately).  The market for books from the Mesoamericanists tends to be quite a bit smaller given they tend to be more from an academic viewpoint, even when popularized.

We don't vet volunteers on their preferred BoM geography.  We could have a number of Heartlanders in fact, only minority of the FM group actually get into talking about geography and yes, most of these hold Mesoamerican positions but some are still unsettled and occasionally we get a few who speak up in support of the Heartland and no, they are not 'shouted down'. The only issue that I can remember coming up was quite some time back one FM volunteer spent all of his time promoting a particular (currently Heartlander) individual's events and did nothing and I mean nothing to contribute to the greater FM mission.  There is currently one who lets us know of various Heartlander events but is contributing in other ways so he is treated just like the rest of us who have pet theories we like to discuss (and there are a lot of those). 

I'm sure it wasn't intentional Calm, but this response is under one you made to me. But this 2nd response does not contain the header quote so it looks like you are quoting me. I am just making it clear for the record you were responding to Sam who said: 

5 hours ago, sam said:

Until FAIR gets some pro North American Book of Mormon Geography researchers/volunteers I really have no respect for FAIR. They have only one agenda and it has nothing to do with science but protecting their egos and livelihood with the Meso American model. I understand the livelihood part of it but the ego part I think is disgraceful. This will probably be the fifth time I have been kicked off Mormon dialogue for talking and posting evidence about the North American model.

I hope all posters will use the multiquote feature if they wish to quote more than one person inside one response box.

I further want to make it clear I disagree with Sam, and generally have much respect for the researchers used by FAIR. I think they are doing important work. I know they have helped me greatly. To research all this stuff is quite time-consuming, and I suppose there would be nothing if it were all free. So I just want to say to everyone providing research to keep it up!! Don't be discouraged. Keep providing the latest research on swords, horses, mastadons, languages, DNA, etc....

Perhaps FAIR would be willing to host my book when it is finished...  

[Kenngo1969]

57 minutes ago, sam said:

Ya the volunteers at FAIR never publish books about BOM Meso American Geography.

You're moving the goal posts.  Whether they publish books is one question, how much they profit from them is quite another.  I daresay that a good deal of what might be profit for FAIR authors is, instead, turned back to the organization. (I'm a published author.  I published my book thirteen years ago.  I have yet to make back what I invested to publish it, let alone to make a profit on it on top of that investment.)  To me, your accusation seems akin to those of LDS detractors, who imply that Dan Peterson lives large off of his apologetic endeavors.

[Kenngo1969]

43 minutes ago, sam said:

That has not been my experience.

"Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire," Cal?  

 

[Kenngo1969]

57 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Either way.........

It is a huge waste of time......

Atheist Mormon has spoken!

"So it has been written, so let it be [not] done!"

"Shut 'er down, Clancy!  She's pumpin' mud!"

 

[Atheist Mormon]

21 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Atheist Mormon has spoken!

"So it has been written, so let it be [not] done!"

"Shut 'er down, Clancy!  She's pumpin' mud!"

 

Ok, if you allow me, I will retract...I mean it....

I do undertake similar quests of finding something extraordinary, spent my life in the canyons of Colorado Plateau (mostly Utah), hiking the places few venture, if any....I'm hoping to find that "Artefact" Erich von Daniken was searching, it was always an adolescent dream of mine.....But I don't have any shred of belief or hope finding anything.....all I do is find some nice fossils, petrified wood and some minerals.....I understand Meldrum's zeal....

The power search is insatiable, I know.....

[Vance]

20 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Did Joseph Smith ever say that man was Columbus, or is that an assumption of later GAs?

That prophecy obviously is past.  So, if it wasn't Columbus, then who?

[Vance]

18 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

But all the other verses in 1 Nephi 13 seem to reference North America and not Mesoamerica.

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them.
17 And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.

I guess that could describe Mexico just as well as the United States, but is that the preferred interpretation?
 

Well, there is this to consider.

14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.

And then this,

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them.

 

It appears to me that the Gentiles that scattered "the seed of my brethren"  (The same group mentioned in verse 12 that was visited by Columbus), are a different group from the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity and did humble themselves etc.

 

Your interpretation may vary.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, sam said:

That has not been my experience.

Did you try to join FM and get turned down?  Because unless that happened or you have been a past member of FM, I don't see how you can have any experience that is relevant to what I said.

[Vance]

9 hours ago, sam said:

Until FAIR gets some pro North American Book of Mormon Geography researchers/volunteers I really have no respect for FAIR. They have only one agenda and it has nothing to do with science but protecting their egos and livelihood with the Meso American model. I understand the livelihood part of it but the ego part I think is disgraceful. This will probably be the fifth time I have been kicked off Mormon dialogue for talking and posting evidence about the North American model.

D&C54:8

8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

D&C28

8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.

9 And now, behold, I say unto you that it is not revealed, and no man knoweth where the city Zion shall be built, but it shall be given hereafter. Behold, I say unto you that it shall be on the borders by the Lamanites.

The lord sent his missionaries to Native American tribes for the teaching of the Lamanites not to Meso America. That should say something for who the descendants of the Lamanites are. 

I think these verses cause greater problems for the North American Model than they do for the MesoAmerican Model.

The North American model would require that the Lamanites would have retreated back into their original lands after taking the land of Cumorah.

Whereas the Meso American model would require that the Lamanites continued to expand northward during the next 1400 years.

 

Which seems more likely?

 

Plus, still waiting for an explanation for Columbus.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I'm sure it wasn't intentional Calm, but this response is under one you made to me. But this 2nd response does not contain the header quote so it looks like you are quoting me. I am just making it clear for the record you were responding to Sam who said: 

I hope all posters will use the multiquote feature if they wish to quote more than one person inside one response box.

It certainly wasn't intentional to imply it was you.  When I get back on the laptop, I will see if I can correct it in my post.  Ipad screws anything complicated up so I got in bad habits.  Hopefully once I put that to rest shortly, I will correct them.

We don't do too many books ourselves (as opposed to carrying in bookstore)...I only know of two current ones, Mike Ash's SFS and Bickmore's Restoring the Ancient Church and that last one we got into I don't know how, but it was early on and the only book we published for a long time.  There is another one on Amazon that we published back in 99, "Guess who wants to have you for lunch", general apologetics.  Publishing is expensive.  Most (all?) are more general apologetics like Shaken Faith Syndrome.  I may have missed out on others though, not currently on the book committee. Too long since I worked at the church bookstore, so out of touch.

You mentioned expenses and yes, we have lots of those.  I think we have been able to keep everything free, but the conferences themselves and the conference talks for a year (maybe two).  That is a huge amount of content such as podcasts and the wiki, plus our free Fairmormon Questions service (free to those who use, we who join it get to pay a membership fee to cover that cost...and we are happy to do so).

Edited August 24, 2016 by Calm

[Rajah Manchou]

3 hours ago, Vance said:

It appears to me that the Gentiles that scattered "the seed of my brethren"  (The same group mentioned in verse 12 that was visited by Columbus), are a different group from the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity and did humble themselves etc.

Interesting, so in your interpretation the gentiles that scattered the seed would be the Spanish who came following Columbus and the gentiles who came out of captivity were the pilgrims, and they are distinct from each other?

But still, the common interpretation is that the "mother Gentiles gathered together to battle against them" refers to the American wars for independence and not to the Mexican wars for independence.