A Game of Charades

[USU78]

On 8/3/2016 at 0:31 PM, Atheist Mormon said:

To me every believer is a "pretender", presuming things to happen or will happen that we unbelievers cannot see, giving you a quick example; of the Scriptures; 

Mat 17:20

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

You can believe this promise only for so long, before realizing it doesn't happen, in fact before this happens, it's more likely that an asteroid will hit earth or a giant tsunami will wash up all our coastlines. 

To me, feeling guilty is like a cancer which will eat the body trying to live up to standards set up by others.

Everybody's a liar but you. Got it 

[Ahab]

34 minutes ago, halconero said:

I'll give you an example of a professor from UofT, who is both an atheist, but also an active member of the Anglican Church.

He still conducts his prayers to the Father in the name of Christ. He considers the Father to be a metaphor for the Supreme Good in life, and the ideal ethics and morality of humanity, and that Christ as a philosopher king gave himself in sacrifice to shock humanity into repentance for the audacity of killing the ideal man (a surprisingly Lukan point of view).

He views liturgy, ceremony, and prayer is meditative acts which bind him to an ethical community, which provide them and himself with a sense of purpose, and provide transcendental experiences which help him discover himself and those around him.

I could go deeper, but you can't help but understand the man, an avowed atheist, as a deeply reverent, prayerful, and good individual with tremendous veneration for Christ.

A study of functional religion reveals the deep religiosity of humanity that goes beyond a belief in God. It reveals how deeply entrenched it is in our political activities (beyond the influence of Christianity in the US), our social activism, and even our recreational activities.

Yeah, but I see that 'avowed atheist' as not really an 'avowed atheist' even though he may and probably does sincerely believe that he is an 'avowed atheist'.  

It's just a charade he is playing himself.

[Atheist Mormon]

2 hours ago, USU78 said:

Everybody's a liar but you. Got it 

This not a very good passive aggressive response, it is very revealing......If I offended you I'm not sorry. Tens of thousands of people who put their trust on those words got burned alive, butchered and violated any which way possible. 

 

Edited August 5, 2016 by Atheist Mormon

[Gray]

1 hour ago, halconero said:

I'll give you an example of a professor from UofT, who is both an atheist, but also an active member of the Anglican Church.

He still conducts his prayers to the Father in the name of Christ. He considers the Father to be a metaphor for the Supreme Good in life, and the ideal ethics and morality of humanity, and that Christ as a philosopher king gave himself in sacrifice to shock humanity into repentance for the audacity of killing the ideal man (a surprisingly Lukan point of view).

He views liturgy, ceremony, and prayer is meditative acts which bind him to an ethical community, which provide them and himself with a sense of purpose, and provide transcendental experiences which help him discover himself and those around him.

I could go deeper, but you can't help but understand the man, an avowed atheist, as a deeply reverent, prayerful, and good individual with tremendous veneration for Christ.

A study of functional religion reveals the deep religiosity of humanity that goes beyond a belief in God. It reveals how deeply entrenched it is in our political activities (beyond the influence of Christianity in the US), our social activism, and even our recreational activities.

This is beautiful. I'm not sure why he identifies as atheist. He seems to worship goodness, which is another equally valid expression of theism. 

This general approach is, IMO, the best possible future for religion. It would represent a profound maturing of the spiritual quest. 

[waveslider]

5 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Waveslider;  when you write "I, as a believer, manage keeping my faith by following the Spirit."  I can discern no one but you. We humans have natural instincts unique to us, free to name anyway we want to, the simplest one is the "gut feeling" (which literally arises from the gut). 

I'm sorry but I cannot put any credence to anything you write as testimonial because I know for a fact it is not there for me. All my life long I tested this "supernatural" force and nothing came out of it to miraculously save me, the biggest test came when I was lost in Canyonlands for 48 hours, no water, no amount of prayer could save me......Everything you do or offer to Spirit for naught...Prayers, offerings will never help anyone climbing out from a Smart Car to Range Rover, or find a glass of water to survive.

And testing is so easy (at least for me)m contrary to spirit, your work, your efforts will get you succeed in life and will benefit you & your family and others if you wish....I know this for a fact; I do it every day. 

I don't have to be grateful to no one for my well being....I know it sounds very harsh & lonely feeling to say "You are your own". But it is unfortunately the fact. 

To me the type of faith sounds like having two IRS's  on my back, to one I already pay huge amount of dollars  every year, then add up another one on my back....Life I know would be way unbearable.......

I'm not talking about gut feelings when I speak of the Spirit's guidance. There aren't words to explain but there are many times it is far more than just a feeling. If no amount of prayer could save you from the canyonlands, then how is it that you are still alive in order to even be posting here? Perhaps you don't see things because you have preconceived notions of how God is supposed to do things, when He always does things His way, not necessarily ours.

I don't know why you think that the Spirit can be compared to the IRS. In order to have the Spirit it doesn't take away from your income one little bit, unless of course your income's source is illicit or immoral, in which case it isn't even worth gaining in the first place. Sure you have to live a certain way in order to have the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but it isn't taking away from any happiness of life, but rather adds to it because the consequences of such actions are always good in the long run of things, whereas the actions of sinful and lustful behaviors always leads to limitations and captivity of your freedom of choice eventually. Contrary to what it may look like in the short term.

I too was like you for the first 18 years of my life. Even though I was raised in the church, I felt absolutely no answers to prayers, no guidance, and I didn't even know if God existed. I wasn't going to go on a mission and try and tell people to join this church because I couldn't honestly say that it was true like everyone else on Fast Sundays. I couldn't even say that God was real. I had, up to that point, gone through all the motions and ranks of being a member, but none of it rang true for me. When I started to feel the pressure of going on a mission or disappointing my parents, I took my dilemma to my singles ward bishop and told him all that I was doing. I explained that I had read all sorts of anti-Mormon literature and couldn't possibly see how the Book Of Mormon could possibly be true according to the so called evidences brought up in that literature. The first thing he asked me was, "Are you reading the scriptures?" My response, "Well.... no. I find it hard to understand with all the old English phrases and things, and it is really hard to get into." He challenged me to read the Book Of Mormon every morning, and then pray about it to see if what I was reading was true as I said my normal morning prayer, He said to do the same thing for the night time prayer as well.

I did it for weeks..... still nothing. Until finally I felt like it was all just going to be a waste of time. I finally wanted an answer so bad that it was like being held down under huge waves, without even getting a chance to get to the surface between waves and wanting air so bad that it was all I could think about. I decided then and there that I would just stay on my knees all night if it took. That no answer would be an answer too, that it was all phony and God wasn't even real. It took a long, long time. It was a long night and my knees were hurting worse than I had imagined kneeling could ever make them. Then I got an answer that was so amazing that I have been unable to deny it since, even when I was inactive later in life. I was able to have a conversation with God, and ask Him anything I wanted, while getting very real answers, not just feelings alone. I was able to bask in that love/light (It's hard to explain in Earthly terms) as long as I wanted. Finally I didn't know what else to ask and just kneeled there enjoying it all. When I finally decided to say, "Amen," it all went away as fast as it came. I was left kicking myself that I said amen already. I didn't expect it all to leave so suddenly. This was far more than any gut feeling, and was far more than what I was taught usually happened during the gaining of a testimony. I guess I needed that to dispel my very real doubts.

I think if you take a solid look at yourself and see if you put one hundred percent of your effort into gaining a testimony you will find that you could have done more. You will also find that you could have been more open minded about how God will answer you as well. He custom tailors it to each of our specific needs, and if we put our own expectations on Him as to how that answer should come then we will always come away disappointed because we are in essence putting a limit upon how God can answer ourselves. We need to want the answer, just for the sake of the answer alone, not the form it will come in. Listen for it, any way it comes and you will find that it is as real as the air you breath that keeps you alive from one moment to the next. That is to be thanked for, for your own well being, not yourself. You will need to humble yourself a little more to actually be aware of the realities that are all around you, that your pride is blinding you to. You in no way can account for the air you breath.

If you don't do these things then you will never understand it no matter what any of us say: "And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
John 1:5
 

[USU78]

4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

This not a very good passive aggressive response, it is very revealing......If I offended you I'm not sorry. Tens of thousands of people who put their trust on those words got burned alive, butchered and violated any which way possible. 

 

Insofar as it reveals the contempt with which I view your puerile obsession with mocking, demeaning and devaluing people and matters of faith, perhaps most marked when it comes to people and things Mormon, then it was very good, though it was never passive aggression.  It was sarcasm.  There's a difference, you know.

[Atheist Mormon]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

Insofar as it reveals the contempt with which I view your puerile obsession with mocking, demeaning and devaluing people and matters of faith, perhaps most marked when it comes to people and things Mormon, then it was very good, though it was never passive aggression.  It was sarcasm.  There's a difference, you know.

What part of my post is "mocking" "devaluing" or demeaning? be specific.

And (edited to add) what part of that "mocking" "devaluing" "demeaning" could be any worse than the scripture I quoted, when peoples, (childrens, mothers, old folks, young mens) lives hanged in balance and promises failed....Not only once but from the time immemorial.....

When I visit MMM site what do I see? Do you think I see blood thirsty Mormons killing innocent Arkansans or do I see all those people who put their faith in an Entity who would never come to their help.....Because it did not exist, except in their innocent mind.

I love Mormons and Utah....It is my Culture

 

 

Edited August 5, 2016 by Atheist Mormon

[Atheist Mormon]

53 minutes ago, waveslider said:

If no amount of prayer could save you from the canyonlands, then how is it that you are still alive in order to even be posting here?
 

I can tell you confidently not with the help of God or Spirit.....None of those entities would save me.....for sure

[waveslider]

59 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I can tell you confidently not with the help of God or Spirit.....None of those entities would save me.....for sure

I can agree to disagree with you here.

[california boy]

Diamond D's brothel began construction on an extension of their building to increase their ever-growing business.
In response, the local Church started a campaign to block the business from expanding - with morning, afternoon, and evening prayer sessions at their church.
Work on Diamond D's progressed right up until the week before the grand reopening when lightning struck the whorehouse and burned it to the ground!
After the brothel was burned by the lightning strike, the church folks were rather smug in their outlook, bragging about "the never-ending power of prayer."
But late last week 'Big Jugs' Jill Diamond, the owner/madam, sued the church, the preacher and the entire congregation on the grounds that the church... "was ultimately responsible for the demise of her building and her business -- either through direct or indirect divine actions or means."
In its reply to the court, the church vehemently and voraciously denied any, and all responsibility or any connection to the building's demise.
The crusty old judge, JP Reynolds, read through the plaintiff's complaint and the defendant's reply, and at the opening hearing he commented:
"I don't know how the hell I'm going to decide this case, but it appears from the paperwork, that we now have a whorehouse owner who staunchly believes in the power of prayer - and an entire church congregation that thinks it's all bulls**t"

[mfbukowski]

On 8/3/2016 at 9:43 AM, Rain said:

I'm afraid I'm lost.  Would you please ask this in a simple question? 

In my experience, the answer is "no".

[mfbukowski]

On 8/5/2016 at 7:59 AM, halconero said:

I'll give you an example of a professor from UofT, who is both an atheist, but also an active member of the Anglican Church.

He still conducts his prayers to the Father in the name of Christ. He considers the Father to be a metaphor for the Supreme Good in life, and the ideal ethics and morality of humanity, and that Christ as a philosopher king gave himself in sacrifice to shock humanity into repentance for the audacity of killing the ideal man (a surprisingly Lukan point of view).

He views liturgy, ceremony, and prayer is meditative acts which bind him to an ethical community, which provide them and himself with a sense of purpose, and provide transcendental experiences which help him discover himself and those around him.

I could go deeper, but you can't help but understand the man, an avowed atheist, as a deeply reverent, prayerful, and good individual with tremendous veneration for Christ.

A study of functional religion reveals the deep religiosity of humanity that goes beyond a belief in God. It reveals how deeply entrenched it is in our political activities (beyond the influence of Christianity in the US), our social activism, and even our recreational activities.

None of us can "prove" any religious belief other than by the way it performs functionally in our lives. That's straight Alma 32!

Essentialism still rules the belief structure of the common man in the west, though its Platonic-Cartesian basis has largely been abandoned in philosophical circles.

Another way to say this is that it is still the case that most believe that if it cannot be "scientifically proven" a statement cannot be "true"

Since NO religious statement is a statement of scientific "truth" all we are left with in today's culture is the kind of religious functionalism you and your professor espouse.

I was a student of John McDermott at CUNY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._McDermott_(philosopher) in the early 1970's, and he is now in Texas- I was sure you were referring to him, but when I looked him up, it turns out that he is at Texas A&M.  But you might want to check out some of his books and other writings.  I came at Mormonism  bit differently than others- I started with a functional view much like yours and THEN found the church as a living example of these views as represented by Alma 32, D&C 93, and even a talk by President Kimball on Absolute Truth which curiously is not about a version of "absolute truth" which corresponds to any version of essentialism I have ever seen!  It actually is about a contextual understanding of truth.

I would suggest that in fact you professor functionally is a theist, despite his protestations to the contrary, since that functionalist thesis is actually the basis for the beliefs of all of us as believers.  We believe in Christ for the sense of peace the belief gives us and the way the belief functions in our lives more than due to any "scientific proof"

I believe that in a real sense, all believers are "functional believers" whether or not they acknowledge it.

Anyhow- good stuff!

Edited August 7, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 8/5/2016 at 1:38 PM, USU78 said:

Insofar as it reveals the contempt with which I view your puerile obsession with mocking, demeaning and devaluing people and matters of faith, perhaps most marked when it comes to people and things Mormon, then it was very good, though it was never passive aggression.  It was sarcasm.  There's a difference, you know.

Apparently not.  That would require nuanced thinking and reading comprehension.

Edited August 7, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Atheist Mormon]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Apparently not.  That would require nuanced thinking and reading comprehension.

Apparently not, that nuanced thinking would fall beyond thinking of the universe might be over six thousand years old....It requires 13.7 Billion years of comprehension.

You are not even a neutron comprhensionwise.... pleading to amnesia works for some people. Not for you.....

[Stargazer]

On 8/3/2016 at 7:42 AM, stemelbow said:

For one, I've focused on not praying for my successes.  I think you're right, generally speaking though.  I have a good friend who just got a new job.  He's way excited, he'll be making about twice as much as he does now (well for two more weeks).  I shraed in his excitement the other day, saying good job.  Says he, "it's not me who got this.  I just prayed and fasted.  I just hope I can do it."  He'll be fine in his new position.  But I doubt the prayer aspect of it.  Why God would bless him exceedingly and leave millions of others in the dust suffering all sorts of maladies and trials is beyond me.  I feel like a POS when I think God will hear my prayer to give me something when others are suffering around the globe. 

I'm not saying I'm doing anything right though.  As it is now, God only hears from me when I cry about others, and I'm usually drenched with anger and guilt. 

That's an interesting position, Mr. POS!  :-) 

The problem is, you are blessed beyond imagination already, having not prayed for it whatsoever.  Through no particular virtue of your own (so far as I know) you were born in the Western world in this time, and particularly in the USA, and thus though you may not be fully cognizant of it at all times, you enjoy enormous favors and blessings, such that a majority of people currently living on this earth can only dream of, and many who have lived and died before you could not even imagine.  And unless you want to ascribe all this to random chance and the vagaries of an indifferent universe, it was God who gave it to you.  And left all those others with far inferior blessings.  Is the guilt setting in yet?  You really ought to be grateful for it all, and give thanks, even if you feel unworthy of the blessings. I understand that lack of gratitude is a sin.  Besides, if one of those people "in the dust suffering all sorts of maladies and trials" were to hear you moaning and groaning about how good you got it, don't you think they would be like: "What does HE have to complain about?"  So stop it. Just stop it.  Get over yourself.  Give thanks for what you have and don't have such a long face about it.  And if you need a blessing in addition to what you have, well then, stop being a wuss and ASK for it.  It harms nothing; if you get a blessing it doesn't harm anyone else. And by all means, ask for blessings for those who do not have them.  And then do whatever you can to be an agent in seeing that they receive those blessings.  If you can.

After my wife died last year, I was pretty miserable.  I had prayed asking for Him to heal her, and gave her a priesthood blessing promising that healing, on condition of faith and the will of God.  God's will, though,  was that she should move on to the next place.  She accepted that, and didn't bloody moan and groan about how bad she had it, but just dealt with it in courage and good-will.  And with faith.  And I, to the best of my ability, took care of her to the last, and am committed to remaining as faithful as she was to the end, so that I can be by her side again, when the wheel comes full circle for me.  And as hard as parting with her was, I am grateful for having had the blessing of her companionship, both here and in the life to come.  And if someone should be diagnosed with cancer as she was, and should they pray and ask the Lord to heal them, AND HE DOES IT FOR THEM, then I shall thank the Lord that He has blessed them, even though I seem to have gone unblessed in that department.

Because I do believe in and adhere to this doctrine: "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."  Proverbs 3:5

And now after all this heartache and sorrow, I have, through no apparent deserts of my own, been unexpectedly blessed with a new life partner, whom I love beyond my understanding.  Did I deserve this, when others continue to suffer loneliness and grief without remission?  I have no idea.  Yet I feel no guilt for my good fortune, but I do feel grateful and I have thanked God for the blessing.  As it happens, I do happen to know that this was something He did for me.  I was richly blessed with spiritual indications that this is the case.  Should I then spurn God's generosity to me by getting all depressed that others were not so blessed as I?  I don't think so, for this would be the very definition of ingratitude.

Why should you doubt that your friend's prayer brought him his new position?  And it doesn't hurt to be grateful to God even if it happened while God wasn't looking, after all.  At least your friend isn't boasting in his great strength in obtaining the position, but rather humbles himself, rather admirably.  In my opinion.

[Stargazer]

On 8/3/2016 at 0:51 PM, smac97 said:

I once had a friend who bragged to me that he was going to be a millionaire before he hit 30.  He went on and on about how he was going to do it, and about the things he was going to buy.  But in a moment he apparently caught himself, so he cut short his soliloquy and said "But most important of all, think of all the things I could do with that money for the Church!"

I'm curious, did he make his goal?

On 8/3/2016 at 0:51 PM, smac97 said:

 

[smac97]

On 8/3/2016 at 2:04 PM, stemelbow said:

Thanks for your post, I liked it.  as per your question about Alma?  I don't know.  I somehow lost any desire to pray for such things, myself.  It might be a good thing, but I have yet to see the good in doing it.  Just by pointing that out, maybe God will show me the way, as I approach Him and think on these things.  But it's never worked for me.  I feel terrible doing it. 

Some years ago I unexpectedly found myself abruptly unemployed.  I prayed mightily, fasted, and worked my tail off to get another job.  I was re-employed in about six weeks, with a job that was markedly better than the one I had lost.  A lot of things had to go exactly right for me to get this job, and they did.  Without going into detail, ever since that experience I have had a strong feeling that I was being blessed.

These days I don't pray so much for more money, or for a better job.  Rather, I pray to be a better employee.  Perhaps for some that is a neglected component of praying over our endeavors (it has been for me in the past).

Thanks,

-Smac

[halconero]

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

None of us can "prove" any religious belief other than by the way it performs functionally in our lives. That's straight Alma 32!

Essentialism still rules the belief structure of the common man in the west, though its Platonic-Cartesian basis has largely been abandoned in philosophical circles.

Another way to say this is that it is still the case that most believe that if it cannot be "scientifically proven" a statement cannot be "true"

Since NO religious statement is a statement of scientific "truth" all we are left with in today's culture is the kind of religious functionalism you and your professor espouse.

I was a student of John McDermott at CUNY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._McDermott_(philosopher) in the early 1970's, and he is now in Texas- I was sure you were referring to him, but when I looked him up, it turns out that he is at Texas A&M.  But you might want to check out some of his books and other writings.  I came at Mormonism  bit differently than others- I started with a functional view much like yours and THEN found the church as a living example of these views as represented by Alma 32, D&C 93, and even a talk by President Kimball on Absolute Truth which curiously is not about a version of "absolute truth" which corresponds to any version of essentialism I have ever seen!  It actually is about a contextual understanding of truth.

I would suggest that in fact you professor functionally is a theist, despite his protestations to the contrary, since that functionalist thesis is actually the basis for the beliefs of all of us as believers.  We believe in Christ for the sense of peace the belief gives us and the way the belief functions in our lives more than due to any "scientific proof"

I believe that in a real sense, all believers are "functional believers" whether or not they acknowledge it.

Anyhow- good stuff!

I don't think he would object to that characterization. He's very much into the whole social construction of deity.

I don't disparage essentialism, belief in God is essential to me. Functionalism just takes is beyond belief into the real of actions, behaviours, and social associations. It applies religious labels to political institutions, animals rights groups, etc.

[mfbukowski]

19 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Apparently not, that nuanced thinking would fall beyond thinking of the universe might be over six thousand years old....It requires 13.7 Billion years of comprehension.

You are not even a neutron comprhensionwise.... pleading to amnesia works for some people. Not for you.....

Huh?

Where did I say the universe was or was not 6k years old?  Your sentences are so convoluted they do not make sense:  "nuanced thinking would fall beyond thinking of the universe might be over six thousand years old"?

Let's deconstruct that.  The clause " thinking of the universe might be over six thousand years old" MIGHT mean that people had theories- that they were thinking about the universe and its age- more than 6 thousand years ago.  OK I can understand that.  I pretty much see that as presentism but I suppose it is possible.

Now you add to it the words "nuanced thinking would fall beyond thinking of the universe might be over six thousand years old"

What is meant by that clause ?  I am going to include parentheses as if we are speaking about math- each parenthesis indicates a separate thought.  It seems you are defining "nuanced thinking" as being defined as the ability to: ("fall beyond" thinking of the universe) COULD BE (over six thousand years old)

OK. so to be a "nuanced thinker" one must be able to get beyond thinking that the universe might be 6 thousand years old

I am not sure why that defines what being a "nuanced thinker" is.   It means that anyone who believes that the universe might in fact be 6 thousand years old is NOT a nuanced thinker.So I suppose that would include people like Bertrand Russell who famously said http://www.reasonsforgod.org/2012/11/was-the-universe-created-five-minutes-ago/

Quote

 

In investigating memory-beliefs, there are certain points which must be borne in mind. In the first place, everything constituting a memory-belief is happening now, not in that past time to which the belief is said to refer. It is not logically necessary to the existence of a memory-belief that the event remembered should have occurred, or even that the past should have existed at all. There is no logical impossibility in the hypothesis that the world sprang into being five minutes ago, exactly as it then was, with a population that “remembered” a wholly unreal past. There is no logically necessary connection between events at different times; therefore nothing that is happening now or will happen in the future can disprove the hypothesis that the world began five minutes ago. Hence the occurrences which are CALLED knowledge of the past are logically independent of the past; they are wholly analysable into present contents, which might, theoretically, be just what they are even if no past had existed.

I am not suggesting that the non-existence of the past should be entertained as a serious hypothesis. Like all sceptical hypotheses, it is logically tenable, but uninteresting. All that I am doing is to use its logical tenability as a help in the analysis of what occurs when we remember.

 

So I suppose that means that Bertrand Russell is not a nuanced thinker since he at least thinks the universe beginning five minutes ago is a hypothesis which cannot be logically disproven.

But of course that might not be what you meant at all.

I could continue the deconstruction exercise but I won't.  I won't go into the "neutron" comment or the "pleading amnesia" comment.  I have no clue what any of this jibberish means. 

I know English is your second language- it is courageous of you to try, but sorry,  If you were trying for a rational argument, it did not come out.  I suppose it works as an insult, at least the last part, so that was a success even if it didn't make sense.  

[Atheist Mormon]

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Huh?

Where did I say the universe was or was not 6k years old?  Your sentences are so convoluted they do not make sense:  "nuanced thinking would fall beyond thinking of the universe might be over six thousand years old"?

Let's deconstruct that.  The clause " thinking of the universe might be over six thousand years old" MIGHT mean that people had theories- that they were thinking about the universe and its age- more than 6 thousand years ago.  OK I can understand that.  I pretty much see that as presentism but I suppose it is possible.

Now you add to it the words "nuanced thinking would fall beyond thinking of the universe might be over six thousand years old"

What is meant by that clause ?  I am going to include parentheses as if we are speaking about math- each parenthesis indicates a separate thought.  It seems you are defining "nuanced thinking" as being defined as the ability to: ("fall beyond" thinking of the universe) COULD BE (over six thousand years old)

OK. so to be a "nuanced thinker" one must be able to get beyond thinking that the universe might be 6 thousand years old

I am not sure why that defines what being a "nuanced thinker" is.   It means that anyone who believes that the universe might in fact be 6 thousand years old is NOT a nuanced thinker.So I suppose that would include people like Bertrand Russell who famously said http://www.reasonsforgod.org/2012/11/was-the-universe-created-five-minutes-ago/

So I suppose that means that Bertrand Russell is not a nuanced thinker since he at least thinks the universe beginning five minutes ago is a hypothesis which cannot be logically disproven.

But of course that might not be what you meant at all.

I could continue the deconstruction exercise but I won't.  I won't go into the "neutron" comment or the "pleading amnesia" comment.  I have no clue what any of this jibberish means. 

I know English is your second language- it is courageous of you to try, but sorry,  If you were trying for a rational argument, it did not come out.  I suppose it works as an insult, at least the last part, so that was a success even if it didn't make sense.  

"I know English is your second language- it is courageous of you to try, but sorry, "

This is an embarrassment on you, not on me..(I can speak six of them) looks like you understood enough to write a detailed response.  None of the languages I speak are my first language, and yet it was good enough for me to sign my own paychecks. Now if you want to be a Grammar police it's fine but I'd rather talk about the substances .

The funny observation I have here is that you incessantly quote about the Philosophers who had next to no contributions into science  which you quote one is so telling "So I suppose that means that Bertrand Russell is not a nuanced thinker since he at least thinks the universe beginning five minutes ago is a hypothesis which cannot be logically disproven." .

 "I have no clue what any of this jibberish means." I think you do, otherwise you wouldn't stick with your supernatural beliefs; I'd say 99.9 % of them are jibberish. I don't know if you could quote one here could not be qualified as such.

[stemelbow]

On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 0:02 AM, Stargazer said:

That's an interesting position, Mr. POS!  :-) 

The problem is, you are blessed beyond imagination already, having not prayed for it whatsoever.  Through no particular virtue of your own (so far as I know) you were born in the Western world in this time, and particularly in the USA, and thus though you may not be fully cognizant of it at all times, you enjoy enormous favors and blessings, such that a majority of people currently living on this earth can only dream of, and many who have lived and died before you could not even imagine.  And unless you want to ascribe all this to random chance and the vagaries of an indifferent universe, it was God who gave it to you.  And left all those others with far inferior blessings.  Is the guilt setting in yet?  You really ought to be grateful for it all, and give thanks, even if you feel unworthy of the blessings. I understand that lack of gratitude is a sin.  Besides, if one of those people "in the dust suffering all sorts of maladies and trials" were to hear you moaning and groaning about how good you got it, don't you think they would be like: "What does HE have to complain about?"  So stop it. Just stop it.  Get over yourself.  Give thanks for what you have and don't have such a long face about it.  And if you need a blessing in addition to what you have, well then, stop being a wuss and ASK for it.  It harms nothing; if you get a blessing it doesn't harm anyone else. And by all means, ask for blessings for those who do not have them.  And then do whatever you can to be an agent in seeing that they receive those blessings.  If you can.

After my wife died last year, I was pretty miserable.  I had prayed asking for Him to heal her, and gave her a priesthood blessing promising that healing, on condition of faith and the will of God.  God's will, though,  was that she should move on to the next place.  She accepted that, and didn't bloody moan and groan about how bad she had it, but just dealt with it in courage and good-will.  And with faith.  And I, to the best of my ability, took care of her to the last, and am committed to remaining as faithful as she was to the end, so that I can be by her side again, when the wheel comes full circle for me.  And as hard as parting with her was, I am grateful for having had the blessing of her companionship, both here and in the life to come.  And if someone should be diagnosed with cancer as she was, and should they pray and ask the Lord to heal them, AND HE DOES IT FOR THEM, then I shall thank the Lord that He has blessed them, even though I seem to have gone unblessed in that department.

Because I do believe in and adhere to this doctrine: "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."  Proverbs 3:5

And now after all this heartache and sorrow, I have, through no apparent deserts of my own, been unexpectedly blessed with a new life partner, whom I love beyond my understanding.  Did I deserve this, when others continue to suffer loneliness and grief without remission?  I have no idea.  Yet I feel no guilt for my good fortune, but I do feel grateful and I have thanked God for the blessing.  As it happens, I do happen to know that this was something He did for me.  I was richly blessed with spiritual indications that this is the case.  Should I then spurn God's generosity to me by getting all depressed that others were not so blessed as I?  I don't think so, for this would be the very definition of ingratitude.

Why should you doubt that your friend's prayer brought him his new position?  And it doesn't hurt to be grateful to God even if it happened while God wasn't looking, after all.  At least your friend isn't boasting in his great strength in obtaining the position, but rather humbles himself, rather admirably.  In my opinion.

Thanks for telling me off.  I wish I could do as you have done, but alas, I'm too small for that, I guess.