Eternal polygamy rears its ugly head…again

[rongo]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

People who do not accept continuing revelation sometimes get into trouble by doing things too soon or too late or too long. The practice of polygamy is an example.

 

Are you saying that the Church practiced it too long?

 

[Calm]

Not me.  See who said the quote...I had to add the link separately.

Another quote:

"Mormon men have lots of wives, right?

No. In the 19th century, some men in the Church had more than one wife because God told the Prophet Joseph Smith to introduce this practice. Some men in the Old Testament were also commanded to do so (for instance, Abraham, Jacob, and David). This is something God has commanded for His own purposes in the past, but it was always a highly restricted and controlled practice. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stopped practicing plural marriage in 1890, and anyone practicing or advocating it today cannot belong to the Church."

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2015/03/be-a-missionary-now/answers-to-common-questions?lang=eng

[rongo]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

and anyone practicing or advocating it today cannot belong to the Church."

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2015/03/be-a-missionary-now/answers-to-common-questions?lang=eng

This, of course, does not apply to belief in or practical acceptance of polygamy in the hereafter --- which happens in temples all the time, including current apostles. It's referring to advocating the active, live practice of it. 

[Calm]

Or it could mean those who spend an inordinate amount of time speculating about how they and others are going to be living polygamy in the future (whether mortality or eternity) are edging dangerously close to the edge of the cliff.

--------

There is a significant amount of material on plural marriage now on lds.org, I am happy to see.  Quite a bit in the history section, but also in current sections.  It is interesting to read what is culturally controversial in regards to marriage  in other places:

"

In our day we are witnesses to the strong headwinds faced by those who desire to marry. There are secular, cultural, and demographic trends that create barriers for those who desire to marry. Materialism is at the forefront considering that many marriages are delayed until educational and professional objectives are met. Many couples live as though they are married and postpone marriage until they decide to have children. Some Latter-day Saints are so focused on finding and marrying their “eternal one and only” that they pass on many excellent opportunities out of fear of missing something better or being stuck for eternity. Some men don’t date. Some women are critical if men date too much. All of these things can contribute to the delay of marriage. Marriage does not require money, education, or lobola. To marry requires only faith.

When we embrace the gospel, we are “no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God” (Ephesians 2:19). As such we accept the culture of the restored gospel and forsake false traditions and culture that is contrary to the revealed light of the Lord. Relative to marriage, modern prophets have taught: “Some practices exist that compete with the Lord’s revealed plan for the family. For example, traditions such as lobola or ‘bride price’ . . . take attention from the eternal perspective of devoted Latter-day Saints.  Any such custom that unnecessarily delays a marriage . . . is contrary to the will of the Lord” (First Presidency letter, January 17, 2003). It is also important to note that the Church accepts for ecclesiastical purposes monogamous marriages that are recognized by the countries in which the couple reside. In the case of customary marriages that are not recognized by the state, the Church would require a legal marriage prior to the performance of an ordinance such as baptism or the temple endowment.

Polygamy

Modern prophets teach clearly that marriage is to be between one man and one woman. In the Book of Mormon the prophets teach us to “hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife” (Jacob 2:27).  As part of the “restitution of all things” the Prophet Joseph Smith was commanded to reinstitute the practice of Old Testament polygamy as a religious principle in 1831. The Lord revoked that commandment in 1890. Today Church members honour and respect the sacrifices made by those who lived this commandment in the early days of the Restoration. However, the practice is banned in the Church today, and no person can practice plural marriage and remain a member. The Church only baptizes couples who live in monogamous and legally recognized marriages. There is also a doctrinal principal of the Lord associated with plural marriage that the Lord employed to test His children relative to obedience and giving heed to the teachings of the prophets and apostles. From the revelations we learn, “Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all this to be answered upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord” (D&C 56:4)."

http://africase.lds.org/the-doctrine-of-marriage

Edited July 23, 2016 by Calm

[Calm]

Wrong link, it is on lds.org, New Era iirc

"The state of monogamy (one man, one woman) has been the teaching of the Church ever since."

Edited July 23, 2016 by Calm

[Bobbieaware]

30 minutes ago, rongo said:

This, of course, does not apply to belief in or practical acceptance of polygamy in the hereafter --- which happens in temples all the time, including current apostles. It's referring to advocating the active, live practice of it. 

Your responses are excellent and right on target! But as for Yours Truly, after spending many months on this board trying to help those who are wavering in their testimonies, I'm finally running out of the emotional energy needed to carry on. This is the reason why I'm participating on this board less and less. There seem to be many participants here who wear their dissent and dissatisfaction with the Church like badges of honor, and it seems they won"t be satisfied until the mockers at the windows of the great and spacious building finally cease and desist with their taunting because the ark-steadiers have finally succeeded in remoldimg the Church to make it politically correct and acceptable to an ungodly world ripening in iniquity. Good luck. Maybe somewhere down the line I'll get a second-wind. All the best...

[BlueDreams]

57 minutes ago, Calm said:

Modern prophets teach clearly that marriage is to be between one man and one woman. In the Book of Mormon the prophets teach us to “hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife” (Jacob 2:27).  As part of the “restitution of all things” the Prophet Joseph Smith was commanded to reinstitute the practice of Old Testament polygamy as a religious principle in 1831. The Lord revoked that commandment in 1890. Today Church members honour and respect the sacrifices made by those who lived this commandment in the early days of the Restoration. However, the practice is banned in the Church today, and no person can practice plural marriage and remain a member. The Church only baptizes couples who live in monogamous and legally recognized marriages. There is also a doctrinal principal of the Lord associated with plural marriage that the Lord employed to test His children relative to obedience and giving heed to the teachings of the prophets and apostles. From the revelations we learn, “Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all this to be answered upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord” (D&C 56:4)."

http://africase.lds.org/the-doctrine-of-marriage

I really like this quote...especially since it's very careful to not call polygamy doctrine but a practice. And instead of it being over glorified, it's mentioned as a sacrifice the only the doctrinal is the expectation of obedience...not the marital structure itself.

 

thanks again,

BD

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Like wow, I didn't know that my eternal marriage made it so I must live polygamy. 

Personally I believe this is false doctrine if I understand what you are saying.

 Elder Nash teaches it as such:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/12/the-new-and-everlasting-covenant?lang=eng

I can't copy/paste this or even read it right now, but iirc the relevant quote chastizing those who are teaching plural marriage is required for exaltation is near the end.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

. There seem to be many participants here who wear their dissent and dissatisfaction with the Church like badges of honor, and it seems they won"t be satisfied until the mockers at the windows of the great and spacious building finally cease and desist with their taunting because the ark-steadiers have finally succeeded in remoldimg the Church to make it politically correct and acceptable to an ungodly world ripening in iniquity...

Am I one of these ark steadiers?  Given that I was the one rongo was responding to, it seems a safe assumption.  Please correct me if I am wrong.  Just wondering how I would manage to qualify because I believe that it is most likely that all sealings made between wiiling, faithful members will be kept intact instead of picking and choosing which ones we want to toss based on arbitrary standards.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Calm

[VideoGameJunkie]

I just want to know what my sealing situation will look like. I don't care what others did centuries ago.

[BlueDreams]

4 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I just want to know what my sealing situation will look like. I don't care what others did centuries ago.

That's a ways off. You should probably get married first to at least get some indication. I'm not God but I would take a bet you're asking a question you don't really need an answer to at this time. 

 

with luv,

BD

[Sky]

12 hours ago, rongo said:

JLHPROF has never said otherwise. We are all unanimous that "we are not now expected to live polygamy." That is a completely non-controversial statement that no one here disagrees with.

 

 

As you and others have been quick to point out, there are very few references to polygamy at all by general authorities after the polygamy period. Anti-polygamists among active LDS pounce on this silence as tacit rejection of the past and future (in the hereafter) practice of it. 

But . . .

What do you do with the fact that polygamous sealings continue to be performed in our temples today. Sealings that leader and rank-and-file member alike expect to be efficacious in the next life? Including President Nelson and Elder Oaks?

What was that you said about living prophets superseding dead ones? Isn't the hurt and trauma some people are going on and on about the fact that we doctrinally and practically accept and look towards in-the-hereafter polygamy? I think that the living prophets' actions speak volumes, even if it isn't discussed as much anymore.

 

Yes, I'm well aware that a man can be sealed to more than one wife today.  And I still think that is problematic, even though it can only be one living wife at a time…. It's definitely problematic for a lot of Mormon women, that's for sure.  It's also problematic that anybody that expresses concerns or objections about it are treated as "ark steadiers" and "borderline apostates" - as though they don't matter.  I always thought that in our religion, men and women were supposed to be treated as equals.  But this is not equal!  I also thought we were always encouraged to ask questions and seek answers, even if they are uncomfortable questions.  Maybe it's just something we say sometimes, but don't really mean…        

So it's definitely something I'd like to see the Church address more than it has.  Hence, the reason for Carol Lynn Pearson's new book and for this discussion.  But the only statement from any General Authority that I've seen about polygamy in the hereafter is this (admittedly it is unofficial):

 

Quote

Helen Whitney: There still is some confusion that polygamy is definitively and unequivocally disallowed in this world. What will happen in the next? There is a perception that polygamy is part of the afterlife. Could you talk a little about that?

Dallin H. Oaks: If I talked about that I’d be making doctrinal statements where the prophet has not chosen to make doctrinal statements, so I think I shouldn’t say anything except to affirm that a lot of people, myself included, are in multiple-marriage situations. Look at the significance of that. There are a lot of people that live on this earth that have been married to more than one person. Sometimes those marriages have ended with death; sometimes they’ve ended with divorce. What does the next life mean to them in relation to a covenant they once made and so on? I don’t think those people have much of an answer for that question. It might not bother them because they don’t believe that people will live as married couples in the next life. And if they don’t make and live for the covenants to do that, [as for themselves] they’re right! But for people who live in the belief, as I do, that marriage relations can be for eternity, then you must say, “What will life be in the next life, when you’re married to more than one wife for eternity?” I have to say I don’t know. But I know that I’ve made those covenants, and I believe if I am true to the covenants that the blessing that’s anticipated here will be realized in the next life. How? Why, I don’t know. 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/elder-oaks-interview-transcript-from-pbs-documentary

If Dallin H. Oaks, a living apostle, doesn't feel comfortable with making doctrinal statements about polygamy in the afterlife, then nobody here should either!     

 

 

Edited July 23, 2016 by Sky

[Sky]

Quote

On behalf of the First Presidency and in response to the question “Is plural or celestial marriage essential to a fulness of glory in the world to come?” President Charles W. Penrose (1832–1925) wrote: “Celestial marriage is essential to a fulness of glory in the world to come, as explained in the revelation concerning it; but it is not stated that plural marriage is thus essential.”41

In 1933 the First Presidency declared: “Celestial marriage—that is, marriage for time and eternity—and polygamous or plural marriage are not synonymous terms. Monogamous marriages for time and eternity, solemnized in our temples in accordance with the word of the Lord and the laws of the Church, are Celestial marriages.”42

Consistent with these statements, Elder Bruce R. McConkie (1915–85) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles wrote: “Plural marriage is not essential to salvation or exaltation. Nephi and his people were denied the power to have more than one wife and yet they could gain every blessing in eternity that the Lord ever offered to any people. In our day, the Lord summarized by revelation the whole doctrine of exaltation and predicated it upon the marriage of one man to one woman. (D&C 132:1–28.) Thereafter he added the principles relative to plurality of wives with the express stipulation that any such marriages would be valid only if authorized by the President of the Church. (D&C 132:7, 29–66.)”43

Today, as directed by the Lord through His prophet, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints no longer practices plural marriage, and individuals who do practice it are not allowed to join the Church or remain members of it. The Church affirms that monogamy is God’s standard for marriage except when He authorizes or commands otherwise through His prophet. The Church does not teach that participation in plural marriage is necessary for exaltation.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/12/the-new-and-everlasting-covenant?lang=eng

Edited July 23, 2016 by Sky

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Sky said:

 I always thought that in our religion, men and women were supposed to be treated as equals.  But this is not equal!

Equality is an illusion.

Abraham 3: 19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

[juliann]

7 minutes ago, Sky said:

 

If Dallin H. Oaks, an apostle, doesn't feel comfortable with making doctrinal statements about polygamy in the afterlife, then nobody here should either!     

 

 

It is quite telling that polygamy advocates only will talk about Elder Oaks' previous statement  but they completely ignore his latest statement....while maligning the testimonies of those who do pay attention to modern prophets.

JLH, did you notice the church itself ties itself to  "modern prophets" in those above quotes?  I'm still waiting for that CFR......

[rongo]

50 minutes ago, Sky said:

If Dallin H. Oaks, a living apostle, doesn't feel comfortable with making doctrinal statements about polygamy in the afterlife, then nobody here should either!     

Are you willing to concede that this should be applied equally in both directions, though? That is ---- you want those who express the view that polygamy will exist in the hereafter to "cease and desist" because current apostles refrain from making doctrinal pronouncements. But, they, by this refraining, are equally silent about the other side of the coin. Yet, you and others continue to bang the drum of "it's hurtful, it won't exist in the hereafter, etc., etc." 

If we're going to embrace a "cease fire" of "we really don't know," then doesn't that apply as equally to you as it applies to me?

What do you do with the fact that, for all of Elder Oaks saying he doesn't know, he yet expresses the belief that "if I am true to the covenants that the blessing that’s anticipated here will be realized in the next life?" This was said directly in the context of his hereafter polygamous marriage to his current wife.

[juliann]

7 minutes ago, rongo said:

Are you willing to concede that this should be applied equally in both directions, though? That is ---- you want those who express the view that polygamy will exist in the hereafter to "cease and desist" because current apostles refrain from making doctrinal pronouncements. But, they, by this refraining, are equally silent about the other side of the coin. Yet, you and others continue to bang the drum of "it's hurtful, it won't exist in the hereafter, etc., etc." 

If we're going to embrace a "cease fire" of "we really don't know," then doesn't that apply as equally to you as it applies to me?

What do you do with the fact that, for all of Elder Oaks saying he doesn't know, he yet expresses the belief that "if I am true to the covenants that the blessing that’s anticipated here will be realized in the next life?" This was said directly in the context of his hereafter polygamous marriage to his current wife.

You do realize that he wasn't gender specific, right?

Quote

Dallin H. Oaks: If I talked about that I’d be making doctrinal statements where the prophet has not chosen to make doctrinal statements, so I think I shouldn’t say anything except to affirm that a lot of people, myself included, are in multiple-marriage situations. Look at the significance of that. There are a lot of people that live on this earth that have been married to more than one person. 

 

[Sky]

19 minutes ago, rongo said:

Are you willing to concede that this should be applied equally in both directions, though? That is ---- you want those who express the view that polygamy will exist in the hereafter to "cease and desist" because current apostles refrain from making doctrinal pronouncements. But, they, by this refraining, are equally silent about the other side of the coin. Yet, you and others continue to bang the drum of "it's hurtful, it won't exist in the hereafter, etc., etc." 

If we're going to embrace a "cease fire" of "we really don't know," then doesn't that apply as equally to you as it applies to me?

What do you do with the fact that, for all of Elder Oaks saying he doesn't know, he yet expresses the belief that "if I am true to the covenants that the blessing that’s anticipated here will be realized in the next life?" This was said directly in the context of his hereafter polygamous marriage to his current wife.

Elder Oaks also said:  "But for people who live in the belief, as I do, that marriage relations can be for eternity, then you must say, “What will life be in the next life, when you’re married to more than one wife for eternity?” I have to say I don’t know. But I know that I’ve made those covenants, and I believe if I am true to the covenants that the blessing that’s anticipated here will be realized in the next life. How? Why, I don’t know." 

…so I'm more than willing to say that I don't really know one way or another that polygamy will exist in the hereafter.     

[juliann]

5 minutes ago, Sky said:

Elder Oaks also said:  "But for people who live in the belief, as I do, that marriage relations can be for eternity, then you must say, “What will life be in the next life, when you’re married to more than one wife for eternity?” I have to say I don’t know. But I know that I’ve made those covenants, and I believe if I am true to the covenants that the blessing that’s anticipated here will be realized in the next life. How? Why, I don’t know." 

…so I'm more than willing to say that I don't really know one way or another that polygamy will exist in the hereafter.     

And if it does....polygamy will exist for people in multi-marriage situations, not just men people.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, juliann said:

And if it does....polygamy will exist for people in multi-marriage situations, not just men people.

Or in other words, the sealing ordinance is fully effective for those who are truly Christ's disciples.  All that is bound on earth is bound on heaven.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Calm

[Eek!]

Joseph Smith once said, "Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject."

I haven't gazed into heaven for five minutes, but many people have, and have recorded what they saw and heard and felt as "near-death experiences".  

Some years ago I read many studies and books and other published accounts of near-death experiences, as that's the closest I'm likely to get to gazing into heaven anytime soon.   I don't recall anything indicating that people will be required to live in relationships or situations that crush their spirits.  

If we cannot be truly happy when someone we love is truly unhappy, then in the long run, we are all in this together.  If God is good, and God is fair, and God is no respecter of persons, then assumptions that imply an unfair outcome in the next life are mistaken.  This principle applies to issues like "eternal polygamy".  

Apparently there is a pattern that includes all of Adam's descendants and it may well transcend polygamy.  We don't know what this pattern is, but apparently Joseph Smith showed it to Brigham Young in 1847.  Joseph tells us what we need do to move in the direction of restoring this pattern.  He doesn't say follow the Prophet.  He doesn't say follow the Brethren.  He doesn't say follow the Church.  He doesn't even say follow the Scriptures.  He says, follow the Spirit. 

Brigham's journal entry recording the experience is only one page long:  https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/097-86.pdf

Imo, ime, ymmv, etc. 

Edited July 23, 2016 by Eek!

[Calm]

Interesting.  If it was anything close to what existed in his day or our day or anything that has ever been on earth for that matter, surely he could have described it.  It sounds like it must be something beyond mortal abilty to comprehend, something that would to us appear to be very complicated  indeed,though of course to God it is likely simple and elegant.

[Jeanne]

18 minutes ago, Eek! said:

Joseph Smith once said, "Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject."

I haven't gazed into heaven for five minutes, but many people have, and have recorded what they saw and heard and felt as "near-death experiences".  

Some years ago I read many studies and books and other published accounts of near-death experiences, as that's the closest I'm likely to get to gazing into heaven anytime soon.   I don't recall anything indicating that people will be required to live in relationships or situations that crush their spirits.  

If we cannot be truly happy when someone we love is truly unhappy, then in the long run, we are all in this together.  If God is good, and God is fair, and God is no respecter of persons, then assumptions that imply an unfair outcome in the next life are mistaken.  This principle applies to issues like "eternal polygamy".  

Apparently there is a pattern that includes all of Adam's descendants and it may well transcend polygamy.  We don't know what this pattern is, but apparently Joseph Smith showed it to Brigham Young in 1847.  Joseph tells us what we need do to move in the direction of restoring this pattern.  He doesn't say follow the Prophet.  He doesn't say follow the Brethren.  He doesn't say follow the Church.  He doesn't even say follow the Scriptures.  He says, follow the Spirit. 

Brigham's journal entry recording the experience is only one page long:  https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/097-86.pdf

Imo, ime, ymmv, etc. 

Heck...I am going to give this a try...I don't want to go to work tomorrow morning!  Maybe the heavens will just let me stay!

[Eek!]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Interesting.  If it was anything close to what existed in his day or our day or anything that has ever been on earth for that matter, surely he could have described it.  It sounds like it must be something beyond mortal abilty to comprehend, something that would to us appear to be very complicated  indeed,though of course to God it is likely simple and elegant.

I think you are right.

Brigham quotes eight sentences of Joseph's instructions, and in seven of those eight Joseph is saying in effect "follow the Spirit".   My guess is that The Pattern (I think it ought to be capitalized because I think it's a big deal) is something God reveals directly through the Holy Spirit, rather than being something that one man would (or could?) teach another. 

My guess is that, in this case, the gap between "seeing the movie" and "reading the review", would be enormous.  So Joseph is giving us a few pointers on how to find the theater. 

[Calm]

It sounds right.

The Spirit in most cases would probably just inform us on the next step for us that moves us in the direction of the Pattern as well, rather than providing full illumination at once because specific directions are what we need.