Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

Do Mormons practice "intercession"?


Recommended Posts

This non-Mormon anthropologist gave a very insightful and thought-provoking presentation yesterday at the Mormon History Association Conference at Snowbird in Utah.

I was very impressed with how conversant she, a Londoner, was with Mormon doctrine and culture. Her thesis was that Mormons often engage in what other faith groups might call "intercession" for deceased loved ones, though that is not a formal belief or term within the Mormon paradigm.

I had to keep the story to a manageable length, and hence could hardly do justice to her prepared paper, but I summarized as best I could.

One thing it did for me is remind me that, though we have our scriptures and doctrinal teachings, we are hardly in a position to judge what will be the final state of an individual in the next life.

Thoughts?

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Link to comment

I accept the claim that we have doctrines and beliefs that are directly related to the intercessionary efforts, teachings, and doctrines of other Christian denominations.  Our beliefs teach us the need, the obligation, to intercede on behalf of all our ancestors to ensure that their saving ordinances are done.  Without this work being accomplished then God's plan would be unfair and broken.  We do as much as we can to allow the individual to be judged on his heart and actions rather than simply not having received ordinances God has demanded every child of his receive.  

I appreciate that the professor recognizes this teaching and correlates it to the teachings found elsewhere.  Thanks for sharing. 

Link to comment
11 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I accept the claim that we have doctrines and beliefs that are directly related to the intercessionary efforts, teachings, and doctrines of other Christian denominations.  Our beliefs teach us the need, the obligation, to intercede on behalf of all our ancestors to ensure that their saving ordinances are done.  Without this work being accomplished then God's plan would be unfair and broken.  We do as much as we can to allow the individual to be judged on his heart and actions rather than simply not having received ordinances God has demanded every child of his receive.  

I appreciate that the professor recognizes this teaching and correlates it to the teachings found elsewhere.  Thanks for sharing. 

That's a good point. We do believe in being "saviors on Mount Zion." Had I been quicker on the draw, I might have brought that up in the Q & A.

Edited to add:

One could say that what we do with our vicarious temple ordinance work is the functional equivalent of what other faith groups do when they engage in what they call "intercession." Ergo, as I have argued at length in the past, there is no rational reason for others to complain about the Mormon practice of baptism for the dead and other vicarious temple ordinance work.

 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Link to comment

Whether it's proper or not I am sure many LDS pray for their deceased relatives; especially those who have died and might be taught the gospel in the spirit world; praying that they will accept it. I often pray for my daughter who died many years ago and wife who recently died, and were already members of the church in life. Even though I know they probably don't need the prayer; I know that I need to do it for my own peace of mind.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This non-Mormon antropologist gave a very insightful and thought-provoking presentation yesterday at the Mormon History Association Conference at Snowbird in Utah.

I was very impressed with how conversant she, a Londoner, was with Mormon doctrine and culture. Her thesis was that Mormons often engage in what other faith groups might call "intercession" for deceased loved ones, though that is not a formal belief or term within the Mormon paradigm.

I had to keep the story to a manageable length, and hence could hardly do justice to her prepared paper, but I summarized as best I could.

One thing it did for me is remind me that, though we have our scriptures and doctrinal teachings, we are hardly in a position to judge what will be the final state of an individual in the next life.

Thoughts?

Intercession is praying to some one already know to be in heaven, like a Saint, to pray for God for us.

We do not practice that. 

Link to comment

Catholic Encyclopedia on intercession

Quote

 

To intercede is to go or come between two parties, to plead before one of them on behalf of the other. In the New Testament it is used as the equivalent of entygchanein (Vulgate interpellare, in Hebrews 7:25). "Mediation" means a standing in the midst between two (contending) parties, for the purpose of bringing them together (cf.mediator, mesites, 1 Timothy 2:5).

In ecclesiastical usage both words are taken in the sense of the intervention primarily of Christ, and secondarily of the Blessed Virgin and the angels and saints, on behalf of men. It would be better, however, to restrict the wordmediation to the action of Christ, and intercession to the action of the Blessed Virgin, the angels, and the saints. In this article we shall briefly deal with: I. the Mediation of Christ; and at more length with, II. the intercession of the saints.

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08070a.htm

Link to comment
50 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I accept the claim that we have doctrines and beliefs that are directly related to the intercessionary efforts, teachings, and doctrines of other Christian denominations.  Our beliefs teach us the need, the obligation, to intercede on behalf of all our ancestors to ensure that their saving ordinances are done.  Without this work being accomplished then God's plan would be unfair and broken.  We do as much as we can to allow the individual to be judged on his heart and actions rather than simply not having received ordinances God has demanded every child of his receive.  

I appreciate that the professor recognizes this teaching and correlates it to the teachings found elsewhere.  Thanks for sharing. 

At some point I think it becomes a semantic issue.

We certainly do not advocate praying to saints to pray for us because they are somehow "closer" to God than we are and so maybe can find favor for us that we do not have because of our lower status.

I often think of intercession as almost a political thing- like knowing the police chief so you can ask him to take care of your parking ticket.

It is our belief that everyone eventually will have an equal chance to hear, accept, and have their ordinances done for them, so taking care of our relatives faster than they might ordinarily have to wait for the work to get done, to me, is not "intercession".  To me intercession means being able to get a favor from someone on your behalf which otherwise you might not be able to get.

For us, the Lord looks upon all as equals, so the other person is just as capable as we are in getting the job of salvation done for ourselves, it just happens perhaps quicker, which in an eternal perspective does not amount to much.

I don't know- to me it is probably semantics.

I read the article and did't see any examples of what I would call "intercession" in it so maybe I am letting my Catholic background get in the way of understanding the word in a new way.

But understanding a word in a new way is by definition not understanding it in its old way!  Is black white if you include "black"  in the new definition of "white"?

Anyway, I think I have exhausted all I have to say  on the subject, thank goodness!  I am not sure why we WANT to be able to say we "intercede" for others anyway- does that make us better members of the "Christian club"?

Enough babble from me!

Edited by mfbukowski
Link to comment
21 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Intercession is praying to some one already know to be in heaven, like a Saint, to pray for God for us.

We do not practice that. 

This might be true for Catholics but other Christian religions might have a little different definition of the word.

Link to comment

A few thoughts:

1. I find the concept of "Intercession" found in other branches of Christianity to be similar to several doctrines and principles restored through (or clarified by) Joseph Smith and his successors.  Capitalized, "Intercession" refers to "the act of praying to God on behalf of others," which "{i}n Western Christianity ... forms a distinct form of prayer, alongside Adoration, Confession and Thanksgiving."  Taken together, these four forms of prayers are sometimes referred to, again in other branches of Christianity, as "ACTS" ("adoration, confession, thanksgiving and supplication (or intercession)") or "CATS."  Although Latter-day Saints don't structure or formalize prayers in this way, the underlying concepts (adoration/devotion to God, confession of sin, giving thanks and other expressions of gratitude, etc.) are instantly recognizable and familiar to us.

2. The Wikipedia article on Intercession breaks the concept down into three parts:

  • A) "In the Early Church" ("St. Ignatius of Antioch was one man who exhorted Christians to continue to pray for others");
  • B) "Intercession of the Saints" ("a doctrine held by the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches, and most Anglicans, that saints may be asked to intercede (or pray) for others"); and
  • C) "Intercession for the Dead" ("In addition to praying for each other in life, early Christians would pray for those who had died").

Part A ("Pray{ing} for others") is unequivocally part of LDS belief.  And Part C ("Intercession for the Dead") is profoundly represented and developed in LDS belief in the form of genealogical work, temple work (including, obviously, proxy ordinances for those that have died), teachings regarding the Spirit of Elijah, being/becoming "saviours on Mount Zion," missionary work "on the other side of the veil" and during the Millennium, and so on.  This concept of "redemption of the dead" (a concept very similar to "intercession" as described in the OP's article) is so central to LDS belief that it constitutes one of the four-fold missions of the Church.

Part B ("{asking or praying to saints} to intercede (or pray) for others") is, I think, pretty much absent from LDS belief and practice.  We deviate substantially from much of the rest of Christianity as to the definition of "saint," and we are strict in limiting our prayers to Heavenly Father only (we don't even pray to Jesus, let alone to "saints").  While this concept is present within Catholic and and Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches, many parts of Protestant Christianity "strongly reject all saintly intercession."

3. I was surprised that Mrs. Cannell was as reserved in her assessment regarding the concept of "intercession" in LDS belief and practice.  She is more or less correct in stating that "intercession is most certainly not a Mormon term," but I'm not sure she's correct when she states that "{intercession} is not supposed to exist within Mormon doctrine."  If you discard specific terminology and look at the broader themes of temple work, post-mortal missionary work, etc., I think you'll have to conclude that the Latter-day Saints believe that "intercession" for the dead is a core doctrine, perhaps second only to faith (in Christ and acceptance of the Atonement), and repentance.  These are the first and second "principles" of the Gospel according to the Fourth Article of Faith, followed by "Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost."  In LDS belief, one of our primary missions in life is to perform these saving ordinances for the dead.  All of them.  The necessity in the Restored Gospel for mortals to perform saving ordinances for themselves and their dead is about as "intercessionary" a thing as we flawed mortals can do.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
Link to comment
On 6/11/2016 at 2:53 PM, JAHS said:

Whether it's proper or not I am sure many LDS pray for their deceased relatives; especially those who have died and might be taught the gospel in the spirit world; praying that they will accept it. I often pray for my daughter who died many years ago and wife who recently died, and were already members of the church in life. Even though I know they probably don't need the prayer; I know that I need to do it for my own peace of mind.

I'm not sure I've ever heard any counsel against praying for deceased relatives.  Praying to them is proscribed, but not praying for them.

I have some beliefs about "deceased relatives" and their being authorized to "intercede" in our lives, which is a concept somewhat reflected in popular notions about "Guardian Angels."  But that's a discussion for another day...

Thanks,

-Smac

Link to comment

Very interesting, thanks for posting this.  Interesting how Cannell perceives so much common ground between Mormonism and more mainstram Christianity, seeing past the vocabulary differences.  I think that's a very good thing for all parties. 

And I thoroughly agree with your closing statement: 

"One thing it did for me is remind me that, though we have our scriptures and doctrinal teachings, we are hardly in a position to judge what will be the final state of an individual in the next life."  

Given that God is characterized as our judge rather than our accuser, and a judge can dismiss charges (think of Jesus and the woman caught in adultery), I think we have good reason to be hopeful. 

 

Edited by Eek!
Link to comment
19 minutes ago, JAHS said:

This might be true for Catholics but other Christian religions might have a little different definition of the word.

Like.........?

Link to comment

I enjoyed reading that, Scott. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. One of the things I like about Mormonism is that salvation isn't individual but involves looking out for each other. I think that's partly what the speaker was getting at. 

Link to comment

Catholic intercessory prayer include praying for others. Individuals, groups, family. Etc. Whe we pray to Saints we are asking them to pray (intercede) for us. Like asking a family member to pray for you. 

Of course Mormons pray for others. These are intercessions. 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I'm not sure I've ever heard any counsel against praying for deceased relatives.  Praying to them is proscribed, but not praying for them.

I have some beliefs about "deceased relatives" and their being authorized to "intercede" in our lives, which is a concept somewhat reflected in popular notions about "Guardian Angels."  But that's a discussion for another day...

Thanks,

-Smac

Yep that about sums it up for me as well.

Praying FOR someone has to always be a good thing, but is that "intercession"?  It's a matter of semantics at that point.

Link to comment
48 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Miss-read what you said. I was referring to praying for someone not to someone who is dead.

I was looking for the "other definitions" you brought up.

Now that we are including praying for others, is there then ANY faith that does not pray for others??

Link to comment
4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I was looking for the "other definitions" you brought up.

Now that we are including praying for others, is there then ANY faith that does not pray for others??

Not that I know of, but there are many Christian faiths that do not pray for the dead (In reference to the OP). They believe the dead rest in the grave in a state of unconsciousness and only come alive again at the resurrection, so it's a waste of time to pray for them.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

At some point I think it becomes a semantic issue.

We certainly do not advocate praying to saints to pray for us because they are somehow "closer" to God than we are and so maybe can find favor for us that we do not have because of our lower status.

I often think of intercession as almost a political thing- like knowing the police chief so you can ask him to take care of your parking ticket.

It is our belief that everyone eventually will have an equal chance to hear, accept, and have their ordinances done for them, so taking care of our relatives faster than they might ordinarily have to wait for the work to get done, to me, is not "intercession".  To me intercession means being able to get a favor from someone on your behalf which otherwise you might not be able to get.

For us, the Lord looks upon all as equals, so the other person is just as capable as we are in getting the job of salvation done for ourselves, it just happens perhaps quicker, which in an eternal perspective does not amount to much.

I don't know- to me it is probably semantics.

I read the article and did't see any examples of what I would call "intercession" in it so maybe I am letting my Catholic background get in the way of understanding the word in a new way.

But understanding a word in a new way is by definition not understanding it in its old way!  Is black white if you include "black"  in the new definition of "white"?

Anyway, I think I have exhausted all I have to say  on the subject, thank goodness!  I am not sure why we WANT to be able to say we "intercede" for others anyway- does that make us better members of the "Christian club"?

Enough babble from me!

Agreed, we do not appeal to saints, etc.  However, you seem to be confusing the issue.  The point is not to whom we appeal for intercession in the life/salvation of another, but the fact that Catholics, Orthodox, and LDS believe that their actions may cause a higher power to intercede or facilitate the salvation of their loved ones.  I don't think that what each denomination does is identical, but they are certainly in the same vein of belief.  

Link to comment
3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Agreed, we do not appeal to saints, etc.  However, you seem to be confusing the issue.  The point is not to whom we appeal for intercession in the life/salvation of another, but the fact that Catholics, Orthodox, and LDS believe that their actions may cause a higher power to intercede or facilitate the salvation of their loved ones.  I don't think that what each denomination does is identical, but they are certainly in the same vein of belief.  

OK that works for me.

It's the creation of a community, a family of mankind, and we get to serve those most forgotten and by so doing affirm the essential importance of each individual.

Just the idea that we would make such effort to think of and repeat the name of someone dead for a couple of hundred years- can you imagine how it would feel when you have not heard your name spoken in two hundred years, when no one knows who you were- to hear that name and know that a total stranger 200 years younger than you cared enough to attend the temple and to do for you what you cannot do for yourself?

I don't know if that's "intercession" but whatever it is, it's pretty wonderful. ;)

Link to comment
4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yep that about sums it up for me as well.

Praying FOR someone has to always be a good thing, but is that "intercession"?  It's a matter of semantics at that point.

I agree it's a matter of semantics, but only because it appears the definition of intercession varies from faith group to faith group.

Link to comment
9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This non-Mormon antropologist gave a very insightful and thought-provoking presentation yesterday at the Mormon History Association Conference at Snowbird in Utah.

I was very impressed with how conversant she, a Londoner, was with Mormon doctrine and culture. Her thesis was that Mormons often engage in what other faith groups might call "intercession" for deceased loved ones, though that is not a formal belief or term within the Mormon paradigm.

I had to keep the story to a manageable length, and hence could hardly do justice to her prepared paper, but I summarized as best I could.

One thing it did for me is remind me that, though we have our scriptures and doctrinal teachings, we are hardly in a position to judge what will be the final state of an individual in the next life.

Thoughts?

Very nice article, Scott.  And of course intercession of the Saints is a particularly Mormon and biblical practice:

Aside from Jesus, Moses, and a long line of high priests making prayerful and sacrificial intercession on behalf of a sinful people (Ex 32:7-14,33, Num 14:11-20), the great James Barr has instructed all of us to understand I Cor 15:29 in light of II Macc 12:44-45 (and in the context of vv. 34-45), which Paul surely had in mind while writing his letter, since the vicarious-expiation-resurrection reasoning is so similar, even though prayer and offerings constitute the ordinance employed by the earlier Jews (James Barr, Holy Scripture: Canon, Authority, Criticism (Westminster, 1983), 40-43, n. 19).* There is also the principle of intercession by dead Saints in Roman Catholicism (Maria stella maris, ora pro nobis), along with the notion of efficacious prayers for others by both living and dead (I Tim 2:1, 5:5, James 5:15-16, Rev 8:3-4), all of which might have been part of the justification for the sale of salvation through indulgences before the Counter Reformation, and which remains a part of priestly intercession to this day.  It isn’t as though there is no precedent for such concepts and practices. 

This also brings to mind Greek teleios “finished, perfect, complete,” which frequently appears in a powerful cultic context, particularly the Telesterion as the 6th century B.C. “Temple of Initiation,” the central shrine of the three-level initiation in the Eleusinian Mysteries at Eleusis, about 14 miles west of Athens,** and which, according to Plato, entailed the “proper rituals and sacrifices by means of which one obtained absolution from one’s own and one’s ancestors sins”# – also discussing Orphic cathartic ritual teletai “initiations.”## 

*  Cf. Rabbi Akiba's tale of a son's prayer saving his dead father from punishment in Hell (Joseph H. Hertz, ed., The Authorized Daily Prayer Book, 2nd ed. [N.Y.: Bloch, 1948], 270-271); cf. also II Macc 7:9,36, 14:46, IV Macc 6:28-29; Isa 53:5-12 (4QM frag 5), Mk 10:45, Acts 24:21; Talmud Babli Yoma 86b.

**  G. E. Mylonas, Eleusis and the Eleusinian Mysteries (Princeton Univ. Press, 1961).
#  W. Jaeger, Early Christianity and Greek Paedeia (Harvard Univ., 1961/ Oxford Univ. Press, 1969),58, and 8  n14, citing Plato, Republic, II:364bc.
##  Jaeger, Early Christianity and Greek Paedeia, 8 n. 14, citing Plato, Republic, 364e, as described by O. Kern, Orphicorum Fragmenta (Berlin, 1922), 81-82; cf. Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis VII:1 (in Stählin edition [Leipzig, 1905-1909], s.v. mysterion); Richard Reitzenstein, Hellenistic Mystery Religions (Pickwick, 1980).

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Very nice article, Scott.  And of course intercession of the Saints is a particularly Mormon and biblical practice:

Aside from Jesus, Moses, and a long line of high priests making prayerful and sacrificial intercession on behalf of a sinful people (Ex 32:7-14,33, Num 14:11-20), the great James Barr has instructed all of us to understand I Cor 15:29 in light of II Macc 12:44-45 (and in the context of vv. 34-45), which Paul surely had in mind while writing his letter, since the vicarious-expiation-resurrection reasoning is so similar, even though prayer and offerings constitute the ordinance employed by the earlier Jews (James Barr, Holy Scripture: Canon, Authority, Criticism (Westminster, 1983), 40-43, n. 19).* There is also the principle of intercession by dead Saints in Roman Catholicism (Maria stella maris, ora pro nobis), along with the notion of efficacious prayers for others by both living and dead (I Tim 2:1, 5:5, James 5:15-16, Rev 8:3-4), all of which might have been part of the justification for the sale of salvation through indulgences before the Counter Reformation, and which remains a part of priestly intercession to this day.  It isn’t as though there is no precedent for such concepts and practices. 

This also brings to mind Greek teleios “finished, perfect, complete,” which frequently appears in a powerful cultic context, particularly the Telesterion as the 6th century B.C. “Temple of Initiation,” the central shrine of the three-level initiation in the Eleusinian Mysteries at Eleusis, about 14 miles west of Athens,** and which, according to Plato, entailed the “proper rituals and sacrifices by means of which one obtained absolution from one’s own and one’s ancestors sins”# – also discussing Orphic cathartic ritual teletai “initiations.”## 

*  Cf. Rabbi Akiba's tale of a son's prayer saving his dead father from punishment in Hell (Joseph H. Hertz, ed., The Authorized Daily Prayer Book, 2nd ed. [N.Y.: Bloch, 1948], 270-271); cf. also II Macc 7:9,36, 14:46, IV Macc 6:28-29; Isa 53:5-12 (4QM frag 5), Mk 10:45, Acts 24:21; Talmud Babli Yoma 86b.

**  G. E. Mylonas, Eleusis and the Eleusinian Mysteries (Princeton Univ. Press, 1961).
#  W. Jaeger, Early Christianity and Greek Paedeia (Harvard Univ., 1961/ Oxford Univ. Press, 1969),58, and 8  n14, citing Plato, Republic, II:364bc.
##  Jaeger, Early Christianity and Greek Paedeia, 8 n. 14, citing Plato, Republic, 364e, as described by O. Kern, Orphicorum Fragmenta (Berlin, 1922), 81-82; cf. Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis VII:1 (in Stählin edition [Leipzig, 1905-1909], s.v. mysterion); Richard Reitzenstein, Hellenistic Mystery Religions (Pickwick, 1980).

Ok 

I'm sold and stand corrected!

Hadn't thought of it that way!

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...