canard78 Posted June 18, 2016 Posted June 18, 2016 5 hours ago, JLHPROF said: And where does Mahonrimoriancumr appear? Beer!
consiglieri Posted June 18, 2016 Posted June 18, 2016 12 hours ago, JLHPROF said: And where does Mahonrimoriancumr appear? Well, not in the Book of Mormon!
UtahTexan Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 Raphael is the Patron Saint of Healing and Love. I doubt Moses is Raphael. The Book of Tobit, where Raphael plays a prominent role, is a beautiful Book.
Five Solas Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 On 6/17/2016 at 1:49 PM, consiglieri said: Raphael appears in the Apocrypha, where the angel's name is mentioned in the Book of Tobit. This is likely Joseph Smith's source, as it was customary for Bibles to contain the Apocrypha two-hundred years ago, and it was present in the Bible Joseph Smith used in the JST. ... Regarding the Book of Tobit (where we meet Raphael), it's been a number of years since I've read it, but Martin Luther's preface sums it up nicely-- What was said about the book of Judith may also be said about this book of Tobit. If the events really happened, then it is fine and holy history. But if they are all made up, then it is indeed a truly beautiful, wholesome, and useful fiction or drama by a gifted poet. . . Tobit shows how things may go badly with a pious peasant . . . there may be much suffering in married life, yet God always graciously helps and finally crowns the outcome with joy . . . Therefore this book is useful and good for us Christians to read. It is the work of a fine Hebrew author who deals not with trivial but important issues, and whose writing and concerns are extraordinarily Christian. (Luther’s Works, Vol. 35 pp. 345-347). --Erik
3DOP Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Five Solas said: Regarding the Book of Tobit (where we meet Raphael), it's been a number of years since I've read it, but Martin Luther's preface sums it up nicely-- What was said about the book of Judith may also be said about this book of Tobit. If the events really happened, then it is fine and holy history. But if they are all made up, then it is indeed a truly beautiful, wholesome, and useful fiction or drama by a gifted poet. . . Tobit shows how things may go badly with a pious peasant . . . there may be much suffering in married life, yet God always graciously helps and finally crowns the outcome with joy . . . Therefore this book is useful and good for us Christians to read. It is the work of a fine Hebrew author who deals not with trivial but important issues, and whose writing and concerns are extraordinarily Christian. (Luther’s Works, Vol. 35 pp. 345-347). --Erik Erik, that is all well and good. But WHO is Raphael? Answer that. After all, it be weird if somebody was not somebody else too. Edited June 19, 2016 by 3DOP
Five Solas Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 11 hours ago, 3DOP said: Erik, that is all well and good. But WHO is Raphael? Answer that. After all, it be weird if somebody was not somebody else too. I was kinda thinking the opposite, 3DOP--that it would be weird if they were. ;0) Really, I just showed up to plug the book (which is certainly worth plugging). And while I didn't make a point of it -- Luther's attitude (Tobit may be historical, Tobit may be fiction - I don't know but it's good either way) is at least some consideration for LDS wrestling with the historicity of their own canon. Off topic, I know -- but I have my own agenda... --Erik
The Nehor Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 On June 17, 2016 at 0:04 PM, JLHPROF said: No, not specifically. But there are two kinds of dispensations. One is a localized event (ie, 12 Apostles in Jerusalem/12 Apostles among the Nephites). The other refers to a worldwide event - a new restoration of authority to the entire earth. Jacob might be in the first category, but he was not one of the seven grand heads. Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Joseph Smith. But there are others who could rightly be considered as well, just not as grand heads. For instance, Joseph Smith said Abel was a head of dispensation. But the authority came to earth through Adam, his father and contemporary who presided over him. Peter presided on the earth despite there being 12 Apostles to whom the priesthood was dispensed in the New World. Does not work. Except for Joseph Smith all the dispensations had ties to authority from previous dispensations that was not restored, Jesus had John the Baptist. Moses had Jethro. Abraham had Melchizedek, etc. A better definition of a dispensation is that knowledge of the gospel is given again and truth is revealed independent of previous dispensations. 2
JLHPROF Posted June 19, 2016 Author Posted June 19, 2016 48 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Does not work. Except for Joseph Smith all the dispensations had ties to authority from previous dispensations that was not restored, Jesus had John the Baptist. Moses had Jethro. Abraham had Melchizedek, etc. A better definition of a dispensation is that knowledge of the gospel is given again and truth is revealed independent of previous dispensations. And Joseph Smith had John the Revelator who is still on the earth. There will always be SOME priesthood on the earth or it would be destroyed.http://en.fairmormon.org/Apostasy/Priesthood_on_earth_during_the_apostasy Critics fail to distinguish between someone holding the priesthood, and someone being authorized to exercise the priesthood in forming the Church, conferring blessings, ordinantions, and spiritual gifts. The apostasy refers to a lack of the latter, not the former. A dispensation is the restoration of the exercise of authority. There are seven grand dispensations where the authority to preside as God's mouthpiece on the earth was reestablished. 1
CMZ Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 Peter is more specifically the head of The Dispensation of the Meridian of Time.
USU78 Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 1 minute ago, CMZ said: Peter is more specifically the head of The Dispensation of the Meridian of Time. Or maybe James ...
CMZ Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 (edited) Peter. And all who lived in his dispensation will have to get his approval, possibly in the form of a signed certificate, to enter into the celestial kingdom. And the interview connected with that might occur at the pearly gates. Edited June 19, 2016 by CMZ
JLHPROF Posted June 19, 2016 Author Posted June 19, 2016 (edited) 30 minutes ago, CMZ said: Peter. And all who lived in his dispensation will have to get his approval, possibly in the form of a signed certificate, to enter into the celestial kingdom. And the interview connected with that might occur at the pearly gates. Not possible. Because he was not the presiding authority on the earth at that time. He was second in command. Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Joseph Smith. The 7 heads of dispensation. Edited June 19, 2016 by JLHPROF 1
The Nehor Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: And Joseph Smith had John the Revelator who is still on the earth. There will always be SOME priesthood on the earth or it would be destroyed.http://en.fairmormon.org/Apostasy/Priesthood_on_earth_during_the_apostasy Critics fail to distinguish between someone holding the priesthood, and someone being authorized to exercise the priesthood in forming the Church, conferring blessings, ordinantions, and spiritual gifts. The apostasy refers to a lack of the latter, not the former. A dispensation is the restoration of the exercise of authority. There are seven grand dispensations where the authority to preside as God's mouthpiece on the earth was reestablished. Still does not work. There was no authority when Enoch received it from Adam himself? Or that Noah had to restore authority when Methusaleh gave him the Priesthood? Or Melchizedek did not when Abraham received the Priesthood from him? A dispensation is an opening of heaven and truths are rerevealed so that people do not have to rely on past revelations. They are started by a prophet who sees and reveals in a way rare to this earth. There is no need to lose authority.
RevTestament Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, John the Baptist, Joseph Smith, and the Millennium
CMZ Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Not possible. Because he was not the presiding authority on the earth at that time. He was second in command. Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Joseph Smith. The 7 heads of dispensation. I know what you are getting at it but it was still Peter.
3DOP Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 8 hours ago, Five Solas said: I was kinda thinking the opposite, 3DOP--that it would be weird if they were. ;0) Really, I just showed up to plug the book (which is certainly worth plugging). And while I didn't make a point of it -- Luther's attitude (Tobit may be historical, Tobit may be fiction - I don't know but it's good either way) is at least some consideration for LDS wrestling with the historicity of their own canon. Off topic, I know -- but I have my own agenda... --Erik Just for the record...I was trying to be silly. It seems to me that there is a presupposition in favor of hidden identities that is not warranted. 1
JLHPROF Posted June 20, 2016 Author Posted June 20, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, CMZ said: I know what you are getting at it but it was still Peter. Based on? Church teaches in its official published Bible Dictionary: Quote Dispensations A dispensation of the gospel is a period of time in which the Lord has at least one authorized servant on the earth who bears the holy priesthood and the keys, and who has a divine commission to dispense the gospel to the inhabitants of the earth. When this occurs, the gospel is revealed anew so that people of that dispensation do not have to depend basically on past dispensations for knowledge of the plan of salvation. There have been many gospel dispensations since the beginning. The Bible suggests at least one dispensation identified with Adam, another with Enoch, another with Noah, and so on with Abraham, Moses, and Jesus with His Apostles in the meridian of time. Paul writes of “the dispensation of the fulness of times” in which the Lord will “gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth” (Eph. 1:10). The fulness of times is the final dispensation and began with the revelation of the gospel to Joseph Smith. It is a dispensation of restoration and of fulfillment of the Lord’s plans and purposes since the world began. Edited June 20, 2016 by JLHPROF
JLHPROF Posted June 20, 2016 Author Posted June 20, 2016 4 hours ago, RevTestament said: Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, John the Baptist, Joseph Smith, and the Millennium 1. David did not hold the fulness of the priesthood making the ordinances available. He went to Nathan for that. 2. John the Baptist also didn't hold the fulness of the priesthood and was unable to provide sufficient of the gospel to head a dispensation. 3. The Millennium is not a dispensation - the gospel was restored for the last time to Joseph Smith. Another restoration will not happen.
CMZ Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: 1. David did not hold the fulness of the priesthood making the ordinances available. He went to Nathan for that. 2. John the Baptist also didn't hold the fulness of the priesthood and was unable to provide sufficient of the gospel to head a dispensation. 3. The Millennium is not a dispensation - the gospel was restored for the last time to Joseph Smith. Another restoration will not happen. That is all true.
CMZ Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 (edited) 29 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Based on? Church teaches in its official published Bible Dictionary. Believe me, I know what you're getting at. I'm just saying there's further and more fine-grained information to be had. I will answer, in part, with the following chart: Notice how in Dispensations 1-5 and 7 that it mentions the dispensation ordinally (e.g., "FIRST DISPENSATION," "SECOND DISPENSATION," and so forth) and then mentions the name of the dispensation head. But for SIXTH DISPENSATION it mentions Jesus Christ before it and then mentions the Twelve Apostles, of whom Peter was the head. Edited June 20, 2016 by CMZ
JLHPROF Posted June 20, 2016 Author Posted June 20, 2016 40 minutes ago, CMZ said: Believe me, I know what you're getting at. I'm just saying there's further and more fine-grained information to be had. I will answer, in part, with the following chart: Notice how in Dispensations 1-5 and 7 that it mentions the dispensation ordinally (e.g., "FIRST DISPENSATION," "SECOND DISPENSATION," and so forth) and then mentions the name of the dispensation head. But for SIXTH DISPENSATION it mentions Jesus Christ before it and then mentions the Twelve Apostles, of whom Peter was the head. Yes, I notice that. It's still wrong. Christ received the restoration of priesthood and called Peter as his successor. Peter is Brigham Young in that dispensation.
CMZ Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 (edited) I understand where you're coming from and I haven't explained it all. This is one of those things where culling information from many sources will provide a bigger, clearer picture. Edited June 20, 2016 by CMZ
Maedros Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 According to the below excerpt, it seems that Raphael had some military authority (if such a thing exists for angels) and as such I assume that he would've manifested such leadership ability in mortality so I speculate that Abraham is Raphael. Raphael bound Azazel under a desert called Dudael according to Enoch 10:4–6: And again the Lord said to Raphael: "Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. And on the day of the great judgment he shall be cast into the fire."[3]
Sevenbak Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 The obvious next question is... which one of the archangels / dispensational heads is Joseph Smith? Apocryphal Enoch1 lists them thus: Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Ramiel and Sariel. I know there are other versions.
Recommended Posts