Calm Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: I know several individuals who have never been married and all are well past 30 years of age. Do I mourn for them because they are single? I have never considered morning for them because they are single. I know some of them still would like to marry someone, but they have each led fascinating lives of value and respect. No, I know many more things to mourn about rather than the fact that someone will be celibate. You seem to put a lot more value on a sexual life than I do. It is less about sex and more about companionship in my view, but the priniciple is still the same. They have a different life that those who are married, but different does not need to mean of less value or happinesss in this context any more than others. 1
Storm Rider Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Calm said: It is less about sex and more about companionship in my view, but the priniciple is still the same. They have a different life that those who are married, but different does not need to mean of less value or happinesss in this context any more than others. Calm, how man gay men do you know? How highly would they rate the importance of being sexually active? Is this importance being sexually active with one individual for the rest of their lives. I have several gay, male friends. It appears to me that they each rate the importance of an active sexual life very highly. They have each gone through periods of instant relationships without having any desire to see the individual again. They are each in a relationship now, but it is a current relationship in a long line of relationships. The two lesbian couples I know have both been in relationships for an extended period - over 20 years. If I used my experience I would say that gay males are hyper sexual and have a multitude of sexual relationships. Lesbians may be less interested in multiple relationships (I know this conflicts with PaPa's experience with his daughter). These are broad brush stroke statements and there will always be exceptions; again, they only reflect my personal knowledge. Companionship would be the term I would use for the lesbian couples I know - it is not what I would use as a quality of relationship the gay men I know value. Their value of companionship is based on the transient, the short term, rather than any interest in a long term relationship. I have read several studies about male, gay relationships and my personal experience is supported by those studies.
Mystery Meat Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 4 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Calm, how man gay men do you know? How highly would they rate the importance of being sexually active? Is this importance being sexually active with one individual for the rest of their lives. I have several gay, male friends. It appears to me that they each rate the importance of an active sexual life very highly. They have each gone through periods of instant relationships without having any desire to see the individual again. They are each in a relationship now, but it is a current relationship in a long line of relationships. The two lesbian couples I know have both been in relationships for an extended period - over 20 years. If I used my experience I would say that gay males are hyper sexual and have a multitude of sexual relationships. Lesbians may be less interested in multiple relationships (I know this conflicts with PaPa's experience with his daughter). These are broad brush stroke statements and there will always be exceptions; again, they only reflect my personal knowledge. Companionship would be the term I would use for the lesbian couples I know - it is not what I would use as a quality of relationship the gay men I know value. Their value of companionship is based on the transient, the short term, rather than any interest in a long term relationship. I have read several studies about male, gay relationships and my personal experience is supported by those studies. This is 100% my experience as well.
CV75 Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 4 hours ago, rockpond said: So are you saying that you don't feel bad that what we offer to our gay church members is a life of celibacy? You don't want to express any sympathy for them in that struggle? I think it's possible to mourn with them without suggesting that church doctrine should change. The scripture is to mourn with those than mourn, not assume “they" are all mourning because we think “they” should, we think “they” must be, or we can call attention to a separate issue with symbolic mourning. Such generalization and attribution dehumanizes God’s children. We are also to comfort and witness. We attend to the individual need. Let's not take one favored characteristic (real or imagined), group people into it accordingly, and assume "they" all feel the same.
rockpond Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 5 hours ago, Storm Rider said: I know several individuals who have never been married and all are well past 30 years of age. Do I mourn for them because they are single? I have never considered morning for them because they are single. I know some of them still would like to marry someone, but they have each led fascinating lives of value and respect. No, I know many more things to mourn about rather than the fact that someone will be celibate. You seem to put a lot more value on a sexual life than I do. I didn't say anything about "sexual life". I was referring to celibacy in the context of what the Church prescribes for gay members: no dating at all and no marriage. And yes, I think that if you are going to tell a 16 year old that their future is a life without any kind of intimate (NOT sexual) relationship, than you ought to be willing to mourn with them. You don't? 1
rockpond Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 2 hours ago, CV75 said: The scripture is to mourn with those than mourn, not assume “they" are all mourning because we think “they” should, we think “they” must be, or we can call attention to a separate issue with symbolic mourning. Such generalization and attribution dehumanizes God’s children. We are also to comfort and witness. We attend to the individual need. Let's not take one favored characteristic (real or imagined), group people into it accordingly, and assume "they" all feel the same. I have no idea what you are talking about. Please see my response to Storm Rider above.
CV75 Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 14 hours ago, rockpond said: I have no idea what you are talking about. Please see my response to Storm Rider above. maybe it's morn with those who morn... early bird gets the worm and all that.
Storm Rider Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 15 hours ago, rockpond said: I didn't say anything about "sexual life". I was referring to celibacy in the context of what the Church prescribes for gay members: no dating at all and no marriage. And yes, I think that if you are going to tell a 16 year old that their future is a life without any kind of intimate (NOT sexual) relationship, than you ought to be willing to mourn with them. You don't? You say you are talking about an intimate relationship without sex and at the same time you act as if a gay individual will have no relationships of any value or depth. I am sorry, but my celibate friends don't resemble that at all. Are people lonely? Yes, an individual may be lonely and married, single, in a family, have no family, etc. Are people unhappy? Yes, every kind of person may be unhappy. Can people be thrown into a lion's den and still be happy? Yes. Can a person go through hell and still be happy? Yes. So what exactly are we mourning about when we talk to the youth of the church and teach them about chastity whether they are gay or not? If you choose to follow the Savior you will sacrifice yourself in favor of taking upon yourself the name of Christ. In exchange, he will forgive you of all your sins, fill your heart with joy, and bring you into the presence of the Father. No, I don't mourn when I teach the youth about what it means to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. Those that do either do not understand who Jesus is or has lost an understanding of his teachings.
thesometimesaint Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 According to a survey of adults aged 20 to 59, women have an average of four sex partners during their lifetime; men have an average of seven. 10 surprising sex statistics - Health - Sexual health | NBC News
rockpond Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 2 hours ago, Storm Rider said: You say you are talking about an intimate relationship without sex and at the same time you act as if a gay individual will have no relationships of any value or depth. I am sorry, but my celibate friends don't resemble that at all. Are people lonely? Yes, an individual may be lonely and married, single, in a family, have no family, etc. Are people unhappy? Yes, every kind of person may be unhappy. Can people be thrown into a lion's den and still be happy? Yes. Can a person go through hell and still be happy? Yes. So what exactly are we mourning about when we talk to the youth of the church and teach them about chastity whether they are gay or not? If you choose to follow the Savior you will sacrifice yourself in favor of taking upon yourself the name of Christ. In exchange, he will forgive you of all your sins, fill your heart with joy, and bring you into the presence of the Father. No, I don't mourn when I teach the youth about what it means to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. Those that do either do not understand who Jesus is or has lost an understanding of his teachings. Let me try to clarify... We (Mormons) do an amazing job of teaching our youth about the joy of marriage and family. I've counseled with gay youth who want nothing more than to be married and have kids. They want what they were raised in. The realization that it may not be a reality for them is heartbreaking. The feeling that they are on the outskirts of the Plan of Happiness is devastating. I've watched this up close. I'm not saying that others don't have challenges, struggles, and heartbreak. But what is wrong with showing sympathy for those who may feel completely alone, isolated, and unable to reach out while they are in the midst of this particular pain that I am describing here? 2
Mystery Meat Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 1 hour ago, rockpond said: Let me try to clarify... We (Mormons) do an amazing job of teaching our youth about the joy of marriage and family. I've counseled with gay youth who want nothing more than to be married and have kids. They want what they were raised in. The realization that it may not be a reality for them is heartbreaking. The feeling that they are on the outskirts of the Plan of Happiness is devastating. I've watched this up close. I'm not saying that others don't have challenges, struggles, and heartbreak. But what is wrong with showing sympathy for those who may feel completely alone, isolated, and unable to reach out while they are in the midst of this particular pain that I am describing here? Using the phrase "on the outskirts of Plan of Happiness" is probably part of the problem. Anyone who says, teaches or believes is much is only contributing to the mental and spiritual anguish felt by such individuals. Nobody is outside the Plan of Happiness. Even gays in Mormon Doctrine.
rockpond Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 10 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: Using the phrase "on the outskirts of Plan of Happiness" is probably part of the problem. Anyone who says, teaches or believes is much is only contributing to the mental and spiritual anguish felt by such individuals. Nobody is outside the Plan of Happiness. Even gays in Mormon Doctrine. it's the gay youth telling it to me. Not me teaching it to them. It's the way they feel. It's what the church has taught them to feel. We've taught them that the plan is to marry in the temple, have kids, raise them in the church, serve, endure, gain eternal life. They look at that plan and realize that they don't fit. So according to your statement above - it is the church itself "contributing to the mental and spiritual anguish felt by such individuals". And that's the reason for the Rainbow Initiative that so many here are criticizing. I wonder how an LGBT youth from our church would feel if they read on here how much push-back there is on something as simple as wearing a rainbow ribbon. 1
Mystery Meat Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 3 hours ago, rockpond said: it's the gay youth telling it to me. Not me teaching it to them. It's the way they feel. It's what the church has taught them to feel. We've taught them that the plan is to marry in the temple, have kids, raise them in the church, serve, endure, gain eternal life. They look at that plan and realize that they don't fit. So according to your statement above - it is the church itself "contributing to the mental and spiritual anguish felt by such individuals". And that's the reason for the Rainbow Initiative that so many here are criticizing. I wonder how an LGBT youth from our church would feel if they read on here how much push-back there is on something as simple as wearing a rainbow ribbon. CFR that the Church has ever taught that LGBTQ (or anyone else for that matter) falls outside the Plan of Happiness? At best that is a misunderstanding, at worst a gross misrepresentation. So if thats what gay youth are expressing they are wrong, misunderstand, and cannot blame the church for that (although many here are trying). You have the responsibility, in such cases, to make sure that the teachings and doctrines of the Church do not teach that they are outside of the Plan of Happiness.
rockpond Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: CFR that the Church has ever taught that LGBTQ (or anyone else for that matter) falls outside the Plan of Happiness? At best that is a misunderstanding, at worst a gross misrepresentation. So if thats what gay youth are expressing they are wrong, misunderstand, and cannot blame the church for that (although many here are trying). You have the responsibility, in such cases, to make sure that the teachings and doctrines of the Church do not teach that they are outside of the Plan of Happiness. I'm sorry but you don't get to tell LGBT youth in the church that their feelings are wrong. I've done my best with LGBT youth that I've counseled but what do you want me to tell them? When we teach that the plan is for them to go marry in the temple and raise up a loving family but... oh wait... not for your, you're gay. You get to be alone until you die. Then it will all be fixed. How exactly do I help them feel that they ARE a part of that plan?
Mystery Meat Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 1 minute ago, rockpond said: I'm sorry but you don't get to tell LGBT youth in the church that their feelings are wrong. I've done my best with LGBT youth that I've counseled but what do you want me to tell them? When we teach that the plan is for them to go marry in the temple and raise up a loving family but... oh wait... not for your, you're gay. You get to be alone until you die. Then it will all be fixed. How exactly do I help them feel that they ARE a part of that plan? I dont want to tell them that their feelings are wrong, but that they misunderstand Church doctrine and practice. LDS LGBT folks are part of eternal families and will able to have an eternal of their own, just like the rest of us. They are part of the plan, just like anybody else who is tormented by the natural man. Feeling like you can't embrace the natural man as a member of the church is a struggle for all of us. That doesn't mean they aren't part of the plan.
california boy Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: CFR that the Church has ever taught that LGBTQ (or anyone else for that matter) falls outside the Plan of Happiness? At best that is a misunderstanding, at worst a gross misrepresentation. So if thats what gay youth are expressing they are wrong, misunderstand, and cannot blame the church for that (although many here are trying). You have the responsibility, in such cases, to make sure that the teachings and doctrines of the Church do not teach that they are outside of the Plan of Happiness. I totally feel outside the plan of happiness. Because I am gay, I don't fit the plan. And what the church teaches me is that the only way I can be a part of the plan of happiness is when I die, I will have to become straight before I can participate. This is exactly the same message that was given to me at 19. If I just get married, then I will magically become straight. Now it is if I just be celibate all my life then I will magically become straight. Nothing happened the first time. What reassurances can you give me that it will happen the second time. There is no doctrine. There is no revelation. There is the SAME promise of "hope" that was offered before. Unfortunately, I found out the first time I was promised that i would magically become straight that that wasn't true. What is different this time?? A revelation from God given to Elder Oaks??? Certainly the prophet has never made such a claim of revelation. Can you tell me how someone who is gay CAN participate in the plan of happiness without becoming straight??? Tell me how it all works. Because I would like to know. And I am not talking about some idea you have. I am talking about church DOCTRINE. Edited June 15, 2016 by california boy
rockpond Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 10 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: I dont want to tell them that their feelings are wrong, but that they misunderstand Church doctrine and practice. LDS LGBT folks are part of eternal families and will able to have an eternal of their own, just like the rest of us. They are part of the plan, just like anybody else who is tormented by the natural man. Feeling like you can't embrace the natural man as a member of the church is a struggle for all of us. That doesn't mean they aren't part of the plan. I'll let you just respond to CB's reply because you don't really seem to want to understand what's being written here. You feel confident that LGBT youth ARE a part of the plan. And you can give out platitudes all you like but you know quite well that what we teach is marriage and family. And gay youth don't get to participate in that.
Mystery Meat Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 13 minutes ago, california boy said: I totally feel outside the plan of happiness. Because I am gay, I don't fit the plan. And what the church teaches me is that the only way I can be a part of the plan of happiness is when I die, I will have to become straight before I can participate. This is exactly the same message that was given to me at 19. Can you tell me how someone who is gay CAN participate in the plan of happiness without becoming straight??? Tell me how it all works. Because I would like to know. And I am not talking about some idea you have. I am talking about church DOCTRINE. Sure, you exercise faith in Christ, repent of your sins, get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. That IS the Plan of Happiness. You are not asking here really how you can participate in the Plan of Happiness (but if you are, exercise faith in Christ, repent of your sins, get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost), rather you are asking, how can I participate in the Plan of Happiness and still embrace the natural man? The answer to that question is exercise faith in Christ, repent of your sins (put off the natural man), get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. If you refuse to put off the natural man, just as anyone else, you will make things much harder for yourself. LGBTQs are not given special exemption from the call to put off the natural man. A man who loves porn must put off the natural man. A woman who wants to claim the priesthood for herself must put off the natural man. A man who resents prophetic counsel and direction must put off the natural man. So too must a man who is attracted to other men.
Jeanne Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 23 hours ago, rockpond said: I didn't say anything about "sexual life". I was referring to celibacy in the context of what the Church prescribes for gay members: no dating at all and no marriage. And yes, I think that if you are going to tell a 16 year old that their future is a life without any kind of intimate (NOT sexual) relationship, than you ought to be willing to mourn with them. You don't? Well I do. I am not gay. But I know the lonesomeness and the feeling of not having any kind of affection. Since my husband passed away, I have had one companion and that didn't work out. But I know how the lonely feel..you can have many friends but there is this emptiness that speaks volumes for how you feel about yourself. This doesn't mean that I cannot live alone and be content, but there is a fine line between happiness and content. 1
Mystery Meat Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 9 minutes ago, rockpond said: I'll let you just respond to CB's reply because you don't really seem to want to understand what's being written here. You feel confident that LGBT youth ARE a part of the plan. And you can give out platitudes all you like but you know quite well that what we teach is marriage and family. And gay youth don't get to participate in that. 1- Gay youth can, and some have, participated in it. While it may not be encouraged in ever case, it is also not discouraged either (at least according to mormonsand gays.org. 2- Plenty of straight LDS folks also don't get to participate in it. Are they outside of the Plan of Happiness? Of course not.
rockpond Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 18 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: 1- Gay youth can, and some have, participated in it. While it may not be encouraged in ever case, it is also not discouraged either (at least according to mormonsand gays.org. 2- Plenty of straight LDS folks also don't get to participate in it. Are they outside of the Plan of Happiness? Of course not. You continue to miss what I have said... I did not say that gay youth ARE outside the plan of happiness. I have said that is how they feel, it is a product of what they are taught, what is emphasized, how they are raised. From the YW Theme: WE BELIEVE as we come to accept and act upon these values, WE WILL BE PREPARED to strengthen home and family, make and keep sacred covenants, receive the ordinances of the temple, and enjoy the blessings of exaltation. And here it is when you've removed all those things that a lesbian YW doesn't get to look forward to: WE BELIEVE as we come to accept and act upon these values, WE WILL BE PREPARED to strengthen home and family, make and keep sacred covenants, receive the ordinances of the temple, and enjoy the blessings of exaltation. Oh... wait... there's nothing left. Sorry. But we'll still let you be a visiting teacher! 1
Mystery Meat Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 1 minute ago, rockpond said: And here it is when you've removed all those things that a lesbian YW doesn't get to look forward to: WE BELIEVE as we come to accept and act upon these values, WE WILL BE PREPARED to strengthen home and family, make and keep sacred covenants, receive the ordinances of the temple, and enjoy the blessings of exaltation. Oh... wait... there's nothing left. Sorry. But we'll still let you be a visiting teacher! This is, simply put, incorrect. No one is justified in feeling that way. The things that you crossed off are available to all, gay or straight. If they feel that way, they misunderstand, and, I fear, being manipulated by society and well intentioned (and not so well intentioned) folks to feel that way.
rockpond Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 11 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: This is, simply put, incorrect. No one is justified in feeling that way. The things that you crossed off are available to all, gay or straight. If they feel that way, they misunderstand, and, I fear, being manipulated by society and well intentioned (and not so well intentioned) folks to feel that way. "No one is justified in feeling that way." Yeah... just keep saying it. Society isn't making them feel that way, the church is. 1
Mystery Meat Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 31 minutes ago, rockpond said: "No one is justified in feeling that way." Yeah... just keep saying it. Society isn't making them feel that way, the church is. Anyone who feels that way, does so for no reason. How? What exactly is the Church saying that makes them feel that way? Has the Church ever said that you don't get to participate in the Plan of Happiness?
Storm Rider Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 2 hours ago, california boy said: I totally feel outside the plan of happiness. Because I am gay, I don't fit the plan. And what the church teaches me is that the only way I can be a part of the plan of happiness is when I die, I will have to become straight before I can participate. This is exactly the same message that was given to me at 19. If I just get married, then I will magically become straight. Now it is if I just be celibate all my life then I will magically become straight. Nothing happened the first time. What reassurances can you give me that it will happen the second time. There is no doctrine. There is no revelation. There is the SAME promise of "hope" that was offered before. Unfortunately, I found out the first time I was promised that i would magically become straight that that wasn't true. What is different this time?? A revelation from God given to Elder Oaks??? Certainly the prophet has never made such a claim of revelation. Can you tell me how someone who is gay CAN participate in the plan of happiness without becoming straight??? Tell me how it all works. Because I would like to know. And I am not talking about some idea you have. I am talking about church DOCTRINE. Cal, you want to participate on your terms, not God's terms. You are human first - a child of God. All of the little, pathetic ways that we humans then like to identify ourselves are just that pathetic and have little, if anything to do with God. Stop trying to quantify what God is and how he will treat you. More importantly, stop trying to make your sexual preference the most important thing about you as a child of God. It is not and never has been. What is assured is that if you choose to take upon yourself the name of Jesus and follow his commandments - however imperfectly - you may very well be exalted. You will be happy because you will be one with God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Their joy and happiness will be yours; let alone their righteousness.
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