rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said: Anyone who feels that way, does so for no reason. How? What exactly is the Church saying that makes them feel that way? Has the Church ever said that you don't get to participate in the Plan of Happiness? Where oh where could they be getting these ideas from??? We, The First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of his children.
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 8 minutes ago, rockpond said: Where oh where could they be getting these ideas from??? We, The First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of his children. I don't follow.
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 24 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: I don't follow. Really? You can't understand how a gay youth in our church would get the idea that marriage and family are central to Heavenly Father's plan for us? We, The First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of his children.
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 9 minutes ago, rockpond said: Really? You can't understand how a gay youth in our church would get the idea that marriage and family are central to Heavenly Father's plan for us? We, The First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of his children. I think they would have to be asleep at the wheel to not get that idea. But I don't get how eternal truth should cause them to feel excluded from the Plan of Happiness without some outside encouragement.
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 5 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: I think they would have to be asleep at the wheel to not get that idea. But I don't get how eternal truth should cause them to feel excluded from the Plan of Happiness without some outside encouragement. Because, by nature of being gay, a man/woman marriage and family are not a possibility for most of them. If you really needed me to spell that all out for you it just goes to show why more awareness is needed in our congregations.
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 33 minutes ago, rockpond said: Because, by nature of being gay, a man/woman marriage and family are not a possibility for most of them. If you really needed me to spell that all out for you it just goes to show why more awareness is needed in our congregations. Ah, I see. You don't understand that single people get to participate in the Plan of Happiness as well. That's where the confusion comes from. 1
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 5 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: Ah, I see. You don't understand that single people get to participate in the Plan of Happiness as well. That's where the confusion comes from. No, you are incorrect. I know that single people, gay people, all of God's children get to participate in the Plan of Happiness. I am not the one solemnly proclaiming to the church, world, and our gay youth that man/woman marriage and family is CENTRAL to the plan.
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 1 hour ago, rockpond said: No, you are incorrect. I know that single people, gay people, all of God's children get to participate in the Plan of Happiness. I am not the one solemnly proclaiming to the church, world, and our gay youth that man/woman marriage and family is CENTRAL to the plan. Well you should be. Man/woman marriage is CENTRAL to the plan. That does not mean that LGBTs are excluded from participating in the plan.
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 13 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: Well you should be. Man/woman marriage is CENTRAL to the plan. That does not mean that LGBTs are excluded from participating in the plan. If man/woman marriage is central to the plan, than doesn't it follow that our gay youth are likely to feel on the outskirts of that plan since they are unlikely to be able to have a man/woman marriage? 1
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 For those still following this thread, the following Washington Post articles makes some interesting points and cites some relevant studies: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/16/growing-up-gay-in-an-anti-gay-home-can-make-you-depressed-and-violent/?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-f%3Ahomepage%2Fstory From the article: "One consequence of this internalized stigma is violence: Studies of same-sex couples show that internalized homophobia is significant predictor of violencewithin a relationship. Self-hatred also creates profound psychological distress: One meta-analysis found that higher levels of internalized anti-gay stigma were correlated with worse mental health. The psychological distress can include anxiety, depression, poor self-esteem and hyperarousal – a state of increased tension that includes irritability, anger and aggression. "The stress caused by internal stigma can evoke a biological response. According to Stephanie Budge, a psychology professor at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, there is broad consensus in the research community that “minority stress” — including internalized self-hatred — creates massive physical health problems. According to the Mayo Clinic, this kind of cumulative stress disrupts almost all the body’s processes. Indeed, gay people who live in communities with high levels of anti-gay prejudice have alife expectancy that is shorter by 12 years. "Anti-gay prejudice is especially pernicious because it creeps into the intimacy of one’s own family. For other forms of bias – racism, for example, or prejudice based on one’s religion — the family can be a refuge against the hatred of the outside world. But anti-gay prejudice is different. The hatred comes from not outsiders, but from loved ones. Parents’ rejection of their children is the one of the biggest reasons as many as 40 percent of homeless youths are LGBT. "Will Cox, a research scientist at the University of Wisconsin-Madison who studies prejudice, was one of these kids. He grew up in a strict Mormon household and was rejected by his parents when he came out as gay. “I felt guilty,” he says. “I’d pray for forgiveness. The religious piece was so strong – at one point I had email exchanges with my parents discussing same-sex marriage and my mom said, ‘Will seems to be making a lot of good points. Do you think that is because Lucifer is influencing our thoughts?’” 2
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 15 hours ago, rockpond said: If man/woman marriage is central to the plan, than doesn't it follow that our gay youth are likely to feel on the outskirts of that plan since they are unlikely to be able to have a man/woman marriage? Not necessarily. I can understand questions, but there is not an inevitable conclusion that they are on the outskirts. Even if they can't have this marriage in this life, they can have it in the next. Furthermore, they are likely part of a man/woman marriage already as a son or daughter. That is very much participation within the Plan.
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 2 hours ago, rockpond said: For those still following this thread, the following Washington Post articles makes some interesting points and cites some relevant studies: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/16/growing-up-gay-in-an-anti-gay-home-can-make-you-depressed-and-violent/?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-f%3Ahomepage%2Fstory From the article: "One consequence of this internalized stigma is violence: Studies of same-sex couples show that internalized homophobia is significant predictor of violencewithin a relationship. Self-hatred also creates profound psychological distress: One meta-analysis found that higher levels of internalized anti-gay stigma were correlated with worse mental health. The psychological distress can include anxiety, depression, poor self-esteem and hyperarousal – a state of increased tension that includes irritability, anger and aggression. "The stress caused by internal stigma can evoke a biological response. According to Stephanie Budge, a psychology professor at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, there is broad consensus in the research community that “minority stress” — including internalized self-hatred — creates massive physical health problems. According to the Mayo Clinic, this kind of cumulative stress disrupts almost all the body’s processes. Indeed, gay people who live in communities with high levels of anti-gay prejudice have alife expectancy that is shorter by 12 years. "Anti-gay prejudice is especially pernicious because it creeps into the intimacy of one’s own family. For other forms of bias – racism, for example, or prejudice based on one’s religion — the family can be a refuge against the hatred of the outside world. But anti-gay prejudice is different. The hatred comes from not outsiders, but from loved ones. Parents’ rejection of their children is the one of the biggest reasons as many as 40 percent of homeless youths are LGBT. "Will Cox, a research scientist at the University of Wisconsin-Madison who studies prejudice, was one of these kids. He grew up in a strict Mormon household and was rejected by his parents when he came out as gay. “I felt guilty,” he says. “I’d pray for forgiveness. The religious piece was so strong – at one point I had email exchanges with my parents discussing same-sex marriage and my mom said, ‘Will seems to be making a lot of good points. Do you think that is because Lucifer is influencing our thoughts?’” I reject the notion that Mormonism and its current theology and understanding is an anti-gay environment.
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 17 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: Not necessarily. I can understand questions, but there is not an inevitable conclusion that they are on the outskirts. Even if they can't have this marriage in this life, they can have it in the next. Furthermore, they are likely part of a man/woman marriage already as a son or daughter. That is very much participation within the Plan. You know that being a part of a man/woman marriage as a child is not at all what the proclamation is advocating. And you know what our doctrine teaches about the importance of marriage. Telling them that they can get married in the eternities after a life of celibacy is putting them on the outskirts.
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 18 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: I reject the notion that Mormonism and its current theology and understanding is an anti-gay environment. I'm not surprised. On this thread, you've shown no understanding of or empathy for the challenges faced by gay members of our church.
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 10 minutes ago, rockpond said: You know that being a part of a man/woman marriage as a child is not at all what the proclamation is advocating. And you know what our doctrine teaches about the importance of marriage. Telling them that they can get married in the eternities after a life of celibacy is putting them on the outskirts. No its not. I can understand how they could be made to feel that way by others who want them to interpret Mormon doctrine that way and I can understand (and sympathize) with questions and challenges this presents.
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, rockpond said: I'm not surprised. On this thread, you've shown no understanding of or empathy for the challenges faced by gay members of our church. I have plenty of empathy for them. We all have trials. Theirs are unique. Just like mine are unique. And yours are unique. I don't think they should get some sort of exemption just because they, like the rest of us, have challenges in this mortal life. In that regard, they are no different from any of us. I sympathize. I empathize. I do not justify sin. That is the difference. Edited June 16, 2016 by Mystery Meat
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 7 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: No its not. I can understand how they could be made to feel that way by others who want them to interpret Mormon doctrine that way and I can understand (and sympathize) with questions and challenges this presents. If man/woman marriage is central to the plan (you agreed with that) and they cannot enter into a man/woman marriage they are, by definition, on the outskirts or fringes of the plan. This isn't some rogue interpretation of Mormon doctrine. As I have demonstrated, our doctrine is the centrality of hetero marriage and family.
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 7 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: I have plenty of empathy for them. We all have them. Theirs are unique. Just like mine are unique. And yours are unique. I don't think they should get some sort of exemption just because they, like the rest of us, have challenges in this mortal life. In that regard, they are no different from any of us. I sympathize. I empathize. I do not justify sin. That is the difference. Sorry, based on your writing I'm not really feeling any empathy. But good... all we're discussing on this board is showing empathy and creating safe spaces. Nobody is saying that they should get an exemption or that sin should be justified.
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 7 minutes ago, rockpond said: If man/woman marriage is central to the plan (you agreed with that) and they cannot enter into a man/woman marriage they are, by definition, on the outskirts or fringes of the plan. This isn't some rogue interpretation of Mormon doctrine. As I have demonstrated, our doctrine is the centrality of hetero marriage and family. This is wrong though. They can. Some will in this life, I believe that those who qualify will in the next life. Thus, they are not outside of the Plan or anywhere near its outskirts.
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 1 minute ago, Mystery Meat said: This is wrong though. They can. Some will in this life, I believe that those who qualify will in the next life. Thus, they are not outside of the Plan or anywhere near its outskirts. Pushing gay people into hetero marriages has a horrible failure rate. Let's not do that. But I agree there are some who can make it work. For the rest... You honestly don't think that telling a 16 year old that s/he can live a life a celibacy and THEN, after death/resurrection, take part in that which is CENTRAL to God's Plan might be cause for feeling like they are on the outskirts?
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, rockpond said: Pushing gay people into hetero marriages has a horrible failure rate. Let's not do that. But I agree there are some who can make it work. For the rest... You honestly don't think that telling a 16 year old that s/he can live a life a celibacy and THEN, after death/resurrection, take part in that which is CENTRAL to God's Plan might be cause for feeling like they are on the outskirts? No and I think it is irrational to argue that it is. There are plenty of single people in the Church. I was single, well into my thirties, before I got married. I was sure I would remain single until I died. If someone were to tell me I was on the outskirts (including Satan, the father of all lies), I would tell them to go to Hell and I hope any other single member, gay or straight, would do the same because it is SIMPLY NOT TRUE. Families are a big part of our cultural identity and doctrine. But Jesus Christ and His Atonement is at the center of the Plan of Happiness. Everyone is invited to accept Him, repent of their sins, enjoy the fruits of the Atonement, receive sacred ordinances and make covenants. Those who do, regardless of marital status or fallen ailments/weaknesses, are safely and securely nowhere near the periphery of the Plan of Happiness. That someone could distort, manipulate or teach that they are is shameful and demonstrates a clear lack of understanding when it comes to the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel (ie, the Plan of Happiness). Edited June 16, 2016 by Mystery Meat 2
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 1 minute ago, Mystery Meat said: No and I think it is irrational to argue that it is. I couldn't disagree more. It's how they feel. I've spoken with them. Counseled with them for hours on end. You can say it isn't how it should be but it is how they feel based on what they are taught at church. 1 minute ago, Mystery Meat said: Families are a big part of our cultural identity and doctrine. If you are willing to admit this, I'm not sure why you aren't willing to admit that it can cause gay youth to feel that they are on the outskirts of that same culture and doctrine. 3 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: But Jesus Christ and His Atonement is at the center of the Plan of Happiness. Everyone is invited to accept Him, repent of their sins, enjoy the fruits of the Atonement, receive sacred ordinances and make covenants. Those who do, regardless of marital status or fallen ailments/weaknesses, are safely and securely nowhere near the periphery of the Plan of Happiness. That someone could distort, manipulate or teach that they are is shameful and demonstrates a clear lack of understanding when it comes to the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel (ie, the Plan of Happiness). I agree. And I am not the one solemnly proclaiming the man/woman marriage is CENTRAL to the plan. Nor am I one who is constantly quoting that document to our youth.
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, rockpond said: I couldn't disagree more. It's how they feel. I've spoken with them. Counseled with them for hours on end. You can say it isn't how it should be but it is how they feel based on what they are taught at church. They may feel that way. I think they are being manipulated to feel that way or told it is okay to feel that way by the World and, ultimately, Satan. Satan has tried to take advantage of my weaknesses before in order to try and cause me to feel like I am on the periphery. I chose not to listen and instead followed the Spirit. Our LGBT youth have the same choice. If you are willing to admit this, I'm not sure why you aren't willing to admit that it can cause gay youth to feel that they are on the outskirts of that same culture and doctrine. Because it is not true. At least it doesn't have to. They can chose to believe Satan's lies if they want to. Their life experiences will certainly be different from mine, and vice versa. That doesn't mean less than or more than. I agree. And I am not the one solemnly proclaiming the man/woman marriage is CENTRAL to the plan. Nor am I one who is constantly quoting that document to our youth. So what do you propose? Embracing SSM as good and approved by God in contradiction to revealed word? Minimizing the importance of man/woman marriage in the face of all evidence to the contrary? How about pointing out Satan's and the world's lies about how they should feel? Edited June 16, 2016 by Mystery Meat
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 2 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: Good, so we agree that they may feel that they are on the outskirts. I'm glad we resolved that. But, it isn't the world or Satan making them feel that way... it's the church (I've cited a couple of references showing where they get the idea, there are many more). What I propose is that we do a better job of helping them feel that they are not on the outskirts. That we do a better job of teaching the plan as you eloquently described it a couple posts up. That we create an environment in which they feel safe and able to be open about their sexual orientation rather than feeling isolated and that they need to keep a horrible secret. This is my understanding of what the Rainbow Initiative was going for.
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 1 minute ago, rockpond said: Good, so we agree that they may feel that they are on the outskirts. I'm glad we resolved that. But, it isn't the world or Satan making them feel that way... it's the church (I've cited a couple of references showing where they get the idea, there are many more). What I propose is that we do a better job of helping them feel that they are not on the outskirts. That we do a better job of teaching the plan as you eloquently described it a couple posts up. That we create an environment in which they feel safe and able to be open about their sexual orientation rather than feeling isolated and that they need to keep a horrible secret. This is my understanding of what the Rainbow Initiative was going for. The Church is not doing anything in regards to SSM and homosexuality, other than teaching in accordance with the Lord's will. If those teachings cause anyone to feel anything other than peace, joy, love, hope and forgiveness, it is likely because Satan is lying to them and they believe those lies. I take it you wan to minimize the importance of man/woman marriage in our doctrine then? Even though throughout Scripture and the revealed word of God its place is constantly emphasized, glorified and revered? Even though without it no man or woman can enter into the highest degree of glory? Yeah, no. That's a nonstarter.
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