Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 5 minutes ago, rockpond said: Good, so we agree that they may feel that they are on the outskirts. I'm glad we resolved that. They can feel whatever they want. But it is their choice. They can decide to feel on the outskirts, but they are probably unknowingly being deceived by Satan.
california boy Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 23 hours ago, Mystery Meat said: Sure, you exercise faith in Christ, repent of your sins, get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. That IS the Plan of Happiness. You are not asking here really how you can participate in the Plan of Happiness (but if you are, exercise faith in Christ, repent of your sins, get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost), rather you are asking, how can I participate in the Plan of Happiness and still embrace the natural man? The answer to that question is exercise faith in Christ, repent of your sins (put off the natural man), get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. If you refuse to put off the natural man, just as anyone else, you will make things much harder for yourself. LGBTQs are not given special exemption from the call to put off the natural man. A man who loves porn must put off the natural man. A woman who wants to claim the priesthood for herself must put off the natural man. A man who resents prophetic counsel and direction must put off the natural man. So too must a man who is attracted to other men. This is such a non answer. Try again. This is exactly what I said. Quote Because I am gay, I don't fit the plan. And what the church teaches me is that the only way I can be a part of the plan of happiness is when I die, I will have to become straight before I can participate. This is exactly the same message that was given to me at 19. Now try telling me again how a gay person be a part of the plan of happiness when the only option is to be straight. There is no room for anyone who is gay even after you die. You still have to become straight in order to participate.
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 15 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: They can feel whatever they want. But it is their choice. They can decide to feel on the outskirts, but they are probably unknowingly being deceived by Satan. 16 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: The Church is not doing anything in regards to SSM and homosexuality, other than teaching in accordance with the Lord's will. If those teachings cause anyone to feel anything other than peace, joy, love, hope and forgiveness, it is likely because Satan is lying to them and they believe those lies. I take it you wan to minimize the importance of man/woman marriage in our doctrine then? Even though throughout Scripture and the revealed word of God its place is constantly emphasized, glorified and revered? Even though without it no man or woman can enter into the highest degree of glory? Yeah, no. That's a nonstarter. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You claim that they shouldn't feel on the outskirts but then you reinforce the centrality and necessity of man/woman marriage. You claim to feel empathy but then say that they are being deceived by Satan.
Jeanne Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 On 6/16/2016 at 0:28 PM, Mystery Meat said: I reject the notion that Mormonism and its current theology and understanding is an anti-gay environment. That's bull and you know it. What kind of lense are you looking through? Leaving out a word doesn't make foul language any more appropriate. Clean it up.
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 2 minutes ago, rockpond said: You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You claim that they shouldn't feel on the outskirts but then you reinforce the centrality and necessity of man/woman marriage. You claim to feel empathy but then say that they are being deceived by Satan. Reinforcing the centrality and necessity of man/woman marriage does not have to make a single person, gay or straight, feel like they are on the outskirts. I understand it may cause some questions. But it doesn't demand that they feel like they are on the outskirts. Satan would certainly want them to feel that way, and has done a good job of making many believe that they are. I can feel empathy and also believe some are deceived by Satan. They are not mutually exclusive. I feel empathy and sympathy for lots of people who are or have been deceived by Satan.
california boy Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 20 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Cal, you want to participate on your terms, not God's terms. You are human first - a child of God. All of the little, pathetic ways that we humans then like to identify ourselves are just that pathetic and have little, if anything to do with God. Stop trying to quantify what God is and how he will treat you. More importantly, stop trying to make your sexual preference the most important thing about you as a child of God. It is not and never has been. What is assured is that if you choose to take upon yourself the name of Jesus and follow his commandments - however imperfectly - you may very well be exalted. You will be happy because you will be one with God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Their joy and happiness will be yours; let alone their righteousness. I tell you what. Just as soon as you put off the natural man and are willing to be celibate your whole life, and then in the next life willing to abandon your current wife and be assigned a man to be your eternal companion, then I will start to believe that you understand how little the plan of salvation offers someone who is gay. And you are DEAD WRONG about me trying to qualify what God is and how he will treat me. THAT is a complete summation of what the church is trying to do. as if they have a clue how God will treat his gay children. Current church leaders limited perspective only allows them to think that everyone has to become straight just like them in order to participate in the plan of happiness. 3
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 9 minutes ago, california boy said: This is such a non answer. Try again. This is exactly what I said. Now try telling me again how a gay person be a part of the plan of happiness when the only option is to be straight. There is no room for anyone who is gay even after you die. You still have to become straight in order to participate. I did answer your question. If you are asking if a gay person can be actively gay and enter into the Celestial Kingdom, the answer to that question is no. If you are asking if a person who is attracted to people of their gender can make it to the Celestial Kingdom, the answer to that question is yes.
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 4 minutes ago, california boy said: I tell you what. Just as soon as you put off the natural man and are willing to be celibate your whole life, and then in the next life willing to abandon your current wife and be assigned a man to be your eternal companion, then I will start to believe that you understand how little the plan of salvation offers someone who is gay. If the church and sacred scripture throughout history taught that SSM was the only type of marriage approved by God, and that hetero marriage was a sin and I couldn't make a SSM work in this life, I would eagerly look forward to the day when I would be resurrected so that I could enjoy a SSM.
california boy Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 2 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: I did answer your question. If you are asking if a gay person can be actively gay and enter into the Celestial Kingdom, the answer to that question is no. If you are asking if a person who is attracted to people of their gender can make it to the Celestial Kingdom, the answer to that question is yes. Bingo. Hence, there is no place in the plan of happiness for someone who is gay. Only straight people are allowed into the plan of happiness. If you are gay, then you have to become straight just like us church leaders. Otherwise, sorry, you are not a part of our club. If you find happiness and joy in being gay, then Satan is causing you to feel that happiness. You are not allowed to be happy and be gay in this life nor in the life to come. Your only hope is to become straight.. 1
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 1 minute ago, california boy said: Bingo. Hence, there is no place in the plan of happiness for someone who is gay. Only straight people are allowed into the plan of happiness. If you are gay, then you have to become straight just like us church leaders. Otherwise, sorry, you are not a part of our club. If you find happiness and joy in being gay, then Satan is causing you to feel that happiness. You are not allowed to be happy and be gay in this life nor in the life to come. Your only hope is to become straight.. I think that is gross distortion, but if it makes you feel better...
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 1 minute ago, california boy said: Bingo. Hence, there is no place in the plan of happiness for someone who is gay. Only straight people are allowed into the plan of happiness. If you are gay, then you have to become straight just like us church leaders. Otherwise, sorry, you are not a part of our club. If you find happiness and joy in being gay, then Satan is causing you to feel that happiness. You are not allowed to be happy and be gay in this life nor in the life to come. Your only hope is to become straight.. This entire thread has made me feel even stronger in my conviction that efforts, like the Rainbow Initiative, to increase awareness and create safe spaces are desperately needed in the church. MM claims empathy but can't even seem to understand why a gay youth would legitimately feel "left out" of the Plan.
california boy Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 6 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: I think that is gross distortion, but if it makes you feel better... Sorry, but I wasn't the one going on for the past page saying that if a gay person finds happiness and peace in this life, then he is being deceived by SATAN. And I wasn't the one that has been going on for pages saying that a gay person can be a part of the plan of happiness and still be gay when you yourself admit that every gay person has to become straight in order to be a part of that plan. 1
california boy Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 8 minutes ago, rockpond said: This entire thread has made me feel even stronger in my conviction that efforts, like the Rainbow Initiative, to increase awareness and create safe spaces are desperately needed in the church. MM claims empathy but can't even seem to understand why a gay youth would legitimately feel "left out" of the Plan. I wish I shared your optimism. When being faced with this situation, I think most gay youth in the church eventually make the right decision. In doing so, they find that they too are entitled to a life of joy, peace and companionship. And that is a good thing.
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 1 minute ago, california boy said: I wish I shared your optimism. When being faced with this situation, I think most gay youth in the church eventually make the right decision. In doing so, they find that they too are entitled to a life of joy, peace and companionship. And that is a good thing. Yep... of the gay young men that I have worked with in the church there are three who I am still in contact with. They all left the church and all are leading very happy and productive lives. One is doing great work as a school counselor. Another is married (to a man).
Jeanne Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: If the church and sacred scripture throughout history taught that SSM was the only type of marriage approved by God, and that hetero marriage was a sin and I couldn't make a SSM work in this life, I would eagerly look forward to the day when I would be resurrected so that I could enjoy a SSM. It sounds so easy doesn't it? I am so tired of hearing how the church loves all..and to not baptize little kids because they love them. Ostracize families for no reason..none! If you want to shake off the natural man...ALL of us have a lot of work to do. You blame so much on decisions made that cannot be helped and then judge. If the above post was to work..you would have to blame yourself right? Edited June 16, 2016 by Jeanne
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 22 minutes ago, california boy said: Sorry, but I wasn't the one going on for the past page saying that if a gay person finds happiness and peace in this life, then he is being deceived by SATAN. WARNING: THE ABOVE IS A GROSS MISINTERPRETATION OF WHAT WAS ACTUALLY SAID. CFR that I ever said that if a "gay person finds happiness and peace in this life, then he is being deceived by SATAN." Congratulations on the most dishonest characterization of what someone has said on this board. And I wasn't the one that has been going on for pages saying that a gay person can be a part of the plan of happiness and still be gay when you yourself admit that every gay person has to become straight in order to be a part of that plan. Can a porn addict be a part of the plan of happiness? Can a thief be a part of the plan of happiness? Can a adulterer be a part of the plan of happiness? Yes. But repentance implies they are no longer porn addicts, thieves, or adulterers. These are all sins. Having sex or being in a SSM is also a Sin. Why would LGBTs expect to be treated any different for their sins as anyone else?
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 14 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: Can a porn addict be a part of the plan of happiness? Can a thief be a part of the plan of happiness? Can a adulterer be a part of the plan of happiness? Yes. But repentance implies they are no longer porn addicts, thieves, or adulterers. These are all sins. Having sex or being in a SSM is also a Sin. Why would LGBTs expect to be treated any different for their sins as anyone else? Is this you showing empathy again? I'm confused.
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 6 minutes ago, rockpond said: Is this you showing empathy again? I'm confused. This goes back to the thread I started last week in a genuine effort to try and understand how to show love to LGBTs. It seems you think it is impossible to do so while (1) sustaining the revealed word of God that man/woman marriage is central to God's plan and the only type of marriage that is recognized by Him, and (2) maintaining and sustaining God's law that homosexuality is a sin. That's your right, but you are wrong.
rockpond Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 7 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: This goes back to the thread I started last week in a genuine effort to try and understand how to show love to LGBTs. It seems you think it is impossible to do so while (1) sustaining the revealed word of God that man/woman marriage is central to God's plan and the only type of marriage that is recognized by Him, and (2) maintaining and sustaining God's law that homosexuality is a sin. That's your right, but you are wrong. No, I think it's difficult to show empathy when you are comparing them to thieves, adulterers, and porn addicts. It's your right, but you are wrong. It's also difficult sit hear and read as you claim to have empathy while also saying that they are deceived by Satan, to read your words claiming that they have a place in the plan of happiness while you continually repeat the mantra that man/woman marriage is central to the plan. It's difficult to believe that you have empathy when you compare giving up porn to living a life without a spouse/family as if those things are equivalent.
Mystery Meat Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 4 minutes ago, rockpond said: No, I think it's difficult to show empathy when you are comparing them to thieves, adulterers, and porn addicts. It's your right, but you are wrong. It's also difficult sit hear and read as you claim to have empathy while also saying that they are deceived by Satan, to read your words claiming that they have a place in the plan of happiness while you continually repeat the mantra that man/woman marriage is central to the plan. It's difficult to believe that you have empathy when you compare giving up porn to living a life without a spouse/family as if those things are equivalent. I am not comparing them only to the extent that they are all sins, after all that is what we talking about. I think it is appropriate and fair. Also, I understand that you have judged me not capable of having empathy. That is your right, but you are wrong.
rockpond Posted June 17, 2016 Posted June 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said: I am not comparing them only to the extent that they are all sins, after all that is what we talking about. I think it is appropriate and fair. Also, I understand that you have judged me not capable of having empathy. That is your right, but you are wrong. That's not true. I absolutely believe you are capable of empathy, I just am not seeing you show it here. You also frequently confound an individual's orientation with their actions. For example, in this thread we've been talking about how to reach out to gay youth. Then you jump to comparisons with thieves/adulterers/porn addicts as if you failed to see the difference between orientation (not a sin) vs action (potentially a sin). I'd suggest to you that keeping those issues separate is a key aspect to creating safe spaces for our LGBT youth.
JAHS Posted June 17, 2016 Posted June 17, 2016 3 hours ago, california boy said: Bingo. Hence, there is no place in the plan of happiness for someone who is gay. Only straight people are allowed into the plan of happiness. If you are gay, then you have to become straight just like us church leaders. Otherwise, sorry, you are not a part of our club. If you find happiness and joy in being gay, then Satan is causing you to feel that happiness. You are not allowed to be happy and be gay in this life nor in the life to come. Your only hope is to become straight.. Which probably won't happen in this life. Perhaps they can be happy in the next life though (which is an eternity). It's a hard thing but the only choice a gay LDS person really seems to have is to remain celibate until the resurrection when it is hoped their attraction to the same sex will be removed. I know that no gay person gets any comfort from this.
Storm Rider Posted June 17, 2016 Posted June 17, 2016 4 hours ago, california boy said: I tell you what. Just as soon as you put off the natural man and are willing to be celibate your whole life, and then in the next life willing to abandon your current wife and be assigned a man to be your eternal companion, then I will start to believe that you understand how little the plan of salvation offers someone who is gay. And you are DEAD WRONG about me trying to qualify what God is and how he will treat me. THAT is a complete summation of what the church is trying to do. as if they have a clue how God will treat his gay children. Current church leaders limited perspective only allows them to think that everyone has to become straight just like them in order to participate in the plan of happiness. Cal, you and the Church are both trying to say what God will do. I would ask you to consider that God is the author and finisher of our Salvation. Stop trying to say what God will demand of you as a gay man and expect, know, that Exaltation is complete union with God. Yes, the Church defines the purpose of creation is to reproduce in order that God's children may come down to this earth. The only way to serve that purpose is through the union of a man and a woman. This is the great, unending problem with the gay lifestyle - it is wholly and completely sterile. There is no reproduction; it is a dead end for those individuals. You consistently create the spin that it is forcing all gay people to be straight or to be in straight relationships. That is your spin, but how else does God accomplish his plan? Why do you think God told Adam and Eve to grow and multiply? The purpose of eternity is found in the creation of worlds without end. The highest purpose of all of God's children is to assist in any way possible to fulfill that role. The conundrum for the Church is the question of why are there gay children? What is their purpose on this earth? I have never heard an answer that works for me, but there are a lot of questions without answers or good answers. The fact that there are gay individuals has never withdrawn God's plan, his teachings, or his commandments. You seem to think that a gay person is unique in all the world in enduring troubles, problems, etc. They would be forced to be celibate! So what, there have been celibate men and women from the beginning of the world and there will continue to be celibate men and women long after you and I have left this earth. Should a gay person not be celibate? Are they somehow more important or more special than all those who have gone before? Why? Is knowing your trial - the challenge to live a godly life as a single person is so overwhelming that each gay person must capitulate immediately? Of course they shouldn't. They may choose to embrace their path as completely and happily should they choose to follow Christ. I don't know what God has in store for all his children. I don't know why some children appear to suffer so horribly throughout the world. What I am absolutely convinced of is that gay people are not even close to bearing the greatest cross when compared to the vast majority of God's children. They have some specific challenges and they are extremely heavy burdens, but when compared to those children that have lived lives of slavery, starvation, squalor, and utter devastation of wars, genocides, etc.; there is no comparison. It is selfish to constantly only see your own burdens rather than the burdens of those that have it much worse than you. No one is saying a gay person does not have burdens, but I am saying that everyone has burdens and almost every one of us can count our blessings because we know there so many that have it much worse than we do. You are good at seeing the shortcomings of the Church, but in being so capable to find her errors, you don't see your own very clearly. I will strive to do whatever my God asks of me. I will go where he wants me to go. I may go trembling in fear and I may falter and fall repeatedly, but I will follow him. Why? because he is my Master; I know his voice and I have faith that his plan for me is better than any plan I could create for myself. He is the same Master for all who seek after him. The price is to lose yourself.
Mystery Meat Posted June 17, 2016 Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, rockpond said: That's not true. I absolutely believe you are capable of empathy, I just am not seeing you show it here. You also frequently confound an individual's orientation with their actions. For example, in this thread we've been talking about how to reach out to gay youth. Then you jump to comparisons with thieves/adulterers/porn addicts as if you failed to see the difference between orientation (not a sin) vs action (potentially a sin). I'd suggest to you that keeping those issues separate is a key aspect to creating safe spaces for our LGBT youth. Show me once where I ever said orientation was a sin. I have not. In fact, in this very thread I have said that those who are attracted to people of their gender can, nevertheless, find themselves among the righteous. Acting on it is not potentially a sin, it is 100% a sin. No exceptions. But I get it. Sinners don't like to be told they are sinning. To tell them they are sinning, despite the charge to call all to repentance, shows a lack of empathy in the mind of the sinner and those who would encourage and support them in their sin. Nevertheless, all sin is comparable in that any sin, no matter its current societal gravity, will keep us from God. In other words, when I make a comparison using other sins it is not to try and rank the sin against others. Such is a fools errand, and I have no desire to undertake it. But it is completely appropriate to call sin a sin. Doing so is in no way calling those who are attracted to the same sex sinners, nor should they feel threatened by such any more than a a heterosexual should feel threatened by the doctrine that premarital sex is sin. Within them just as within me lies the potential to sin. They may sin differently than me, but it is still sin. I appreciate the Church warning me of sin and I am humbled that the Lord allows me to repent. Not providing the same to those who are attracted to members of the same sex would truly be hateful and bigoted. You have created demands that the Church cannot provide (embrace SSM as good and minimize the importance of man/woman marriage). To do so would put the Church in apostasy. Edited June 17, 2016 by Mystery Meat 1
rockpond Posted June 17, 2016 Posted June 17, 2016 23 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: Show me once where I ever said orientation was a sin. I have not. In fact, in this very thread I have said that those who are attracted to people of their gender can, nevertheless, find themselves among the righteous. Acting on it is not potentially a sin, it is 100% a sin. No exceptions. But I get it. Sinners don't like to be told they are sinning. To tell them they are sinning, despite the charge to call all to repentance, shows a lack of empathy in the mind of the sinner and those who would encourage and support them in their sin. Nevertheless, all sin is comparable in that any sin, no matter its current societal gravity, will keep us from God. In other words, when I make a comparison using other sins it is not to try and rank the sin against others. Such is a fools errand, and I have no desire to undertake it. But it is completely appropriate to call sin a sin. Doing so is in no way calling those who are attracted to the same sex sinners, nor should they feel threatened by such any more than a a heterosexual should feel threatened by the doctrine that premarital sex is sin. Within them just as within me lies the potential to sin. They may sin differently than me, but it is still sin. I appreciate the Church warning me of sin and I am humbled that the Lord allows me to repent. Not providing the same to those who are attracted to members of the same sex would truly be hateful and bigoted. You have created demands that the Church cannot provide (embrace SSM as good and minimize the importance of man/woman marriage). To do so would put the Church in apostasy. I have not created any such demands. Nor have I said that you claimed sexual orientation to be a sin. What I said is that you often confound orientation and actions in your posts here. We were talking about gay youth (not youth in sexual relationships) and helping them feel a part of God's plan. And then you jumped to the comparison with adulterers, thieves, and porn addicts. Here, again, in your response above you go on and on about sin. Perhaps you could try having a conversation about LGBT folks wherein you don't start focusing on how they might sin.
Recommended Posts