1 Nephi 17:35 - rejecting every word of God

[theplains]

I had a question on these passages.

1 Nephi 17:32-35 - "And after they had crossed the river Jordan he did make them mighty unto 
the driving [a] out of the children of the land, yea, unto the scattering them to destruction. 
And now, do ye suppose that the children of this land, who were in the land of promise, who 
were driven out by our fathers, do ye suppose that they were righteous? Behold, I say unto 
you, Nay.  Do ye suppose that our fathers would have been more choice than they if they had 
been righteous? I say unto you, Nay.

"Behold, the Lord esteemeth all flesh in one; he that is righteous is favored of God. But 
behold, this people [d] had rejected every word of God, and they were ripe in iniquity; and 
the fulness of the wrath of God was upon them; and the Lord did curse the land against them, 
and bless it unto our fathers; yea, he did curse it against them unto their destruction, and 
he did bless it unto our fathers unto their obtaining power over it."

The footnotes [a] and [d] are cross-reference to signify the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, 
Perizzites, Hivites, and the Jebusites.

How did these people groups reject every word of God?

Thanks,
Jim

[Guest]

Every being on earth has the light of Christ, it is given unto them to know good from evil. That "Light of Christ" or conscience is the word of God, and Christ is "The Word". When they reject Christ, they reject to words and wisdom of God. Also the word of God passed down through "oral tradition", was,passed down from Adam, Abraham and others. 

[rodheadlee]

11 hours ago, theplains said:

I had a question on these passages.

1 Nephi 17:32-35 - "And after they had crossed the river Jordan he did make them mighty unto 
the driving [a] out of the children of the land, yea, unto the scattering them to destruction. 
And now, do ye suppose that the children of this land, who were in the land of promise, who 
were driven out by our fathers, do ye suppose that they were righteous? Behold, I say unto 
you, Nay.  Do ye suppose that our fathers would have been more choice than they if they had 
been righteous? I say unto you, Nay.

"Behold, the Lord esteemeth all flesh in one; he that is righteous is favored of God. But 
behold, this people [d] had rejected every word of God, and they were ripe in iniquity; and 
the fulness of the wrath of God was upon them; and the Lord did curse the land against them, 
and bless it unto our fathers; yea, he did curse it against them unto their destruction, and 
he did bless it unto our fathers unto their obtaining power over it."

The footnotes [a] and [d] are cross-reference to signify the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, 
Perizzites, Hivites, and the Jebusites.

How did these people groups reject every word of God?

Thanks,
Jim

They practiced child sacrifice, or human sacrifice, the worship of Baal. It is the final straw in many instances through out history before God judges a people ripe for destruction including Judah and Israel. I could not answer a CFR, it's from memory of various bible studies. You could google child sacrifice. Maybe one of the scholars here will comment.

Edited May 28, 2016 by rodheadlee

[Bobbieaware]

21 hours ago, theplains said:

I had a question on these passages.

1 Nephi 17:32-35 - "And after they had crossed the river Jordan he did make them mighty unto 
the driving [a] out of the children of the land, yea, unto the scattering them to destruction. 
And now, do ye suppose that the children of this land, who were in the land of promise, who 
were driven out by our fathers, do ye suppose that they were righteous? Behold, I say unto 
you, Nay.  Do ye suppose that our fathers would have been more choice than they if they had 
been righteous? I say unto you, Nay.

"Behold, the Lord esteemeth all flesh in one; he that is righteous is favored of God. But 
behold, this people [d] had rejected every word of God, and they were ripe in iniquity; and 
the fulness of the wrath of God was upon them; and the Lord did curse the land against them, 
and bless it unto our fathers; yea, he did curse it against them unto their destruction, and 
he did bless it unto our fathers unto their obtaining power over it."

The footnotes [a] and [d] are cross-reference to signify the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, 
Perizzites, Hivites, and the Jebusites.

How did these people groups reject every word of God?

Thanks,
Jim

One of the purposes of the coming forth of the Book of Mormom is to restore lost knowledge that is no longer found in the present-day Bible. The Nephites possessed the Brass Plates, and through that more expansive version of the Old Testament they were made privy to information missing from today's Bible. In the verses you quote from the Book of Mormon, one of the things we learn is that the people in the land of Canaan were very likely visited by prophets of God who warned them of their wickedness and who prophesied that if they refused to humble themselves before God, and repent of their abominations, that God would utterly destroy them and give their land to another people. I have always taken great comfort in the fact that the Book of Mormon informs us that in his great love and mercy God sent prophets to the people of the land of Canaan to try to call them to repentance and save them from their wickedness before he had no choice but to utterly destroy them for their rebellion and refusal to repent.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Robert F. Smith]

On 5/28/2016 at 6:42 PM, theplains said:

I had a question on these passages.

1 Nephi 17:32-35 - "And after they had crossed the river Jordan he did make them mighty unto 
the driving [a] out of the children of the land, yea, unto the scattering them to destruction. 
And now, do ye suppose that the children of this land, who were in the land of promise, who 
were driven out by our fathers, do ye suppose that they were righteous? Behold, I say unto 
you, Nay.  Do ye suppose that our fathers would have been more choice than they if they had 
been righteous? I say unto you, Nay.

"Behold, the Lord esteemeth all flesh in one; he that is righteous is favored of God. But 
behold, this people [d] had rejected every word of God, and they were ripe in iniquity; and 
the fulness of the wrath of God was upon them; and the Lord did curse the land against them, 
and bless it unto our fathers; yea, he did curse it against them unto their destruction, and 
he did bless it unto our fathers unto their obtaining power over it."

The footnotes [a] and [d] are cross-reference to signify the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, 
Perizzites, Hivites, and the Jebusites.

How did these people groups reject every word of God?

Thanks,
Jim

A good deal of the books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings deal with the Canaanite religion -- which had many similarites to the Israelite religion.  The Israelite prophets inveighed powerfully against the Canaanite religion still existing in the land long after the Conquest.  And many Israelites found that religion very attractive.  Especially in the days of King Ahab and his pagan Queen Jezebel.  However, Elijah was not the only prophet taking his errant people to task.

You may have noted that the phrase in I Nephi 17:35 "this people had rejected every word of God" is basically the same as I Samuel 15:23,26, Jeremiah 8:9.  Nothing new under the sun, Jim.

[CV75]

On 5/28/2016 at 8:42 PM, theplains said:

How did these people groups reject every word of God?

Just a hunch, but "every word" might also be rendered, "every messenger" -- D&C 93:8... well, maybe more than a hunch! They rejected every prophet.

Edited May 29, 2016 by CV75

[The Nehor]

On 5/28/2016 at 7:42 PM, theplains said:

How did these people groups reject every word of God?

They were grammar nazis.

[PeterPear]

This verse and others also point to truthfulness of the story of Moses leading the children out of Egypt, across the red sea, etc., which some here on this site have questioned as being authentic.

Then there was Moloch:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch

[theplains]

On 28/05/2016 at 6:28 PM, Bobbieaware said:

In the verses you quote from the Book of Mormon, one of the things we learn is that the people in the land of Canaan were very likely visited by prophets of God who warned them of their wickedness and who ...

Speculation.  This assumes God dealt with other people groups.

Jim

[theplains]

On 29/05/2016 at 9:30 AM, CV75 said:

Just a hunch, but "every word" might also be rendered, "every messenger" -- D&C 93:8... well, maybe more than a hunch! They rejected every prophet.

So you believe God send prophets to the Israelites and other people groups around the world 
and that the Jews were not unique as an Old Testament people?

Thanks,
Jim

[Bobbieaware]

8 hours ago, theplains said:

Speculation.  This assumes God dealt with other people groups.

Jim

To the Latter-day Saints it is not speculation. In the verses you quote from 1 Nephi, Nephi says all the various people's in the land of Canaan had fully "ripened in iniquity" and that is why God destroyed them. In Mormonism, the expression "ripened in iniquity" has a specific meaning: It means that when a nation has ripened in iniquity the people have REBELLED against God while being aware of the truth -- not while in ignorance of the truth. And when Nephi says the Canaanites "rejected every word of God" it means that in his mercy the Lord sent his word to them through prophets to let them know that if they refused to turn unto him and repent they would be utterly destroyed. You may be comfortable with the idea that the Lord destroyed the people who were in the Land of Canaan without any word of warning but, thanks to the Book of Mormon the Latter-day Saints can take comfort in the fact that the Lord did not send in the armies of Joshua to destroy every man, woman and child without first repeatedly warning these rebellious people to repent and turn unto him.

it's interesting to note that the outspoken modern atheists decry the divine commandment God gave to Moses and Joshua, to destroy every man, woman and child in the land of Canaan, as a monstrously evil act of ancient genocide. They say how could a supposedly loving, just and merciful God to command such a thing? But thanks to modern revelation at least the Latter-day Saints know God diligently tried to forewarn these people to repent before using the armies of Joshua as his instrument of judgment and destruction. It's amazing to me that just because some don't want to accept the Book of Mormon as the word of God that they would rather believe God commanded the utter annihilation of the people of Canaan without any attempt to mercifully warn them of impending doom if they did not turn unto him and repent. But as for me and my house, we will rejoice in the knowledge that God tried to patiently warn these people to repent of their wicked ways before passing judgment.

[CV75]

19 hours ago, theplains said:

So you believe God send prophets to the Israelites and other people groups around the world 
and that the Jews were not unique as an Old Testament people?

Thanks,
Jim

They are unique in the Old Testament in some ways, and they are unique in the Book of Mormon also (and they differentiate themselves from the "Jews who were at Jerusalem," the scattered Jews of the latter days ("both those who shall come upon this land and those who shall be upon other lands, yea, even upon all the lands of the earth") and include themselves with "any of the remnant of the house of Israel" who are "the covenant people of the Lord."

I believe God sent prophets to other people as well as the Israelites -- see all the Patriarchs and prophets that came before Jacob in the chapters in the Old Testament, for example. “For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true.”

It stands to reason that the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and the Jebusites you mention had the Gospel preached to them at some point.

[theplains]

On 31/05/2016 at 5:22 AM, Bobbieaware said:

But thanks to modern revelation at least the Latter-day Saints know God diligently tried to forewarn these people to repent before using the armies of Joshua as his instrument of judgment and destruction. It's amazing to me that just because some don't want to accept the Book of Mormon as the word of God that they would rather believe God commanded the utter annihilation of the people of Canaan without any attempt to mercifully warn them of impending doom if they did not turn unto him and repent.

The Book of Mormon refers to the supposed destruction and deaths of the Nephites and Lamanites 
at the crucifixion of Christ. No such thing occurred in the land where the Jews rejected his 
teaching during his earthly ministry.  It even goes as far in 2 Nephi 10:3 to say that no
other nation would crucify their God.

Regards,
Jim

[theplains]

On 31/05/2016 at 3:10 PM, CV75 said:

I believe God sent prophets to other people as well as the Israelites -- see all the Patriarchs and prophets that came before Jacob in the chapters in the Old Testament, for example. “For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true.”

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: 
chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."
  
Thanks,
Jim

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, theplains said:

The Book of Mormon refers to the supposed destruction and deaths of the Nephites and Lamanites 
at the crucifixion of Christ. No such thing occurred in the land where the Jews rejected his 
teaching during his earthly ministry.  It even goes as far in 2 Nephi 10:3 to say that no
other nation would crucify their God.

Regards,
Jim

The destruction of the Jews in Jerusalem simply took a different form. Jesus gave a prophecy about it, and they were warned.

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, theplains said:

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: 
chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."
  
Thanks,
Jim

Yes, unto the Jews were committed the oracles of God, after others in their world had rejected the same privilege. Many pre-Abrahamic peoples had oracles, too (read your Bible!). Adam was the first!

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

The Book of Mormon refers to the supposed destruction and deaths of the Nephites and Lamanites 
at the crucifixion of Christ. No such thing occurred in the land where the Jews rejected his 
teaching during his earthly ministry.  It even goes as far in 2 Nephi 10:3 to say that no
other nation would crucify their God.

Regards,
Jim

I'm utterly astonished at your apparent lack of insight. What I'm about to say is so obvious that I find it hard to believe you seem to have missed such a significant and indisputable point. Is it not true that in the case of the Holy Land the apostles and prophets of Christ warned the Jews that if they continued to reject every word of God they preached (I.e. the Gospel of Christ that they taught), and if they continued to rebel against God and ripen in iniquity, the prophesy made by the Lord himself that Jerusalem and the Holy Land would be utterly destroyed because of that rebellion would surely come to pass? And that's exactly what happened. In the year 70 AD, the Roman armies of General Trajan laid waste to the Holy Land, killed or enslaved most of the inhabitants, and tore the temple down so that not even one stone was left atop another.

Prophets warned the Nephites that if they didn't repent and come unto Christ they would be destroyed, and the inhabitants of the Holy Land were also warned by prophets that if they didn't repent and come unto Christ they too would be destroyed. In both instances the prophetic warnings went largely unheeded and the prophesied destructions followed. So how is what happened to the rebellious Jews in the Holy Land any different than what happened to the rebellious Nephites? What's the difference between these two examples of prophetic warnings going unheeded and prophesied destructions coming to pass? Is it not true that in both instances the Lord mercifully warned the people to come unto him and repent before he sent forth his prophesied judgments?

[RevTestament]

On 05/30/2016 at 5:43 PM, theplains said:

Speculation.  This assumes God dealt with other people groups.

Jim

You mean like when God sent Jonah to the Ninevites?

[theplains]

On 02/06/2016 at 6:15 PM, Bobbieaware said:

What's the difference between these two examples of prophetic warnings going unheeded and prophesied destructions coming to pass?

The destruction surrounding the crucifixion of Christ described in the Book of Mormon did 
not occur in the land of Israel (to the people who had rejected his message). That's the 
big difference.  

Jim

[theplains]

On 05/06/2016 at 2:58 PM, RevTestament said:

You mean like when God sent Jonah to the Ninevites?

I think that was before the Israelite nation.

Jim

[Bobbieaware]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

The destruction surrounding the crucifixion of Christ described in the Book of Mormon did 
not occur in the land of Israel (to the people who had rejected his message). That's the 
big difference.  

Jim

So what if the Jews weren't destroyed for rebellion at that same time the Nephites were? It's all based on fairness: The Gospel of Christ had already been preached to the Nephites continually for over 600 YEARS at the time of Christ's death, when many of the Nephites were destroyed because they had finally completely ripened in iniquity. Meanwhile, the apostate Jews had only been exposed to the preaching of the Gospel of Christ for about THREE YEARS at the time of Christ's crucifixion. In order to be fair, the Lord allowed the Jews to be exposed to the Gospel for another 37 years after the crucifixion. It made perfect sense for the Lord to destroy the wicked Nephites at the time he did because they'd been given MORE THAN ENOUGH TIME to turn to the Lord and repent; but because the apostate Jews in the Holy Land had only had the Gospel preached to them for THREE YEARS before the death of the Lord they were given more time to repent. From a point of view informed by fairness, common sense, and mercy, it would have made no sense for the Lord to destroy the Jews at the time of Christ's death because not enough time had elapsed to provide the apostate Jews with a fair chance to accept or reject the Gospel.

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

I think that was before the Israelite nation.

Jim

You are welcome to  believe such a silly thing, but actually it occurred during the height of the Israelite nation. Even when Israel was in Egypt it was a nation. The story of Jonah happened when Israel had captured the Holy Land.

[theplains]

On 07/06/2016 at 8:16 PM, Bobbieaware said:

Meanwhile, the apostate Jews had only been exposed to the preaching of the Gospel of Christ for about THREE YEARS at the time of Christ's crucifixion. In order to be fair, the Lord allowed the Jews to be exposed to the Gospel for another 37 years after the crucifixion. It made perfect sense for the Lord to destroy the wicked Nephites at the time he did because they'd been given MORE THAN ENOUGH TIME to turn to the Lord and repent; but because the apostate Jews in the Holy Land had only had the Gospel preached to them for THREE YEARS before the death of the Lord they were given more time to repent.

Why do you limit yourself to a time frame of only three years?  Are you forgetting that the 
Israelites were rejecting God's word, the judges, and the prophets long before Jesus came?

Thanks,
Jim

[Bobbieaware]

On June 11, 2016 at 11:09 AM, theplains said:

Why do you limit yourself to a time frame of only three years?  Are you forgetting that the 
Israelites were rejecting God's word, the judges, and the prophets long before Jesus came?

Thanks,
Jim

It's very simple. According to the Book of Mormon, the Nephites religion was not in a state of total apostasy at the time of the death of Chrisr, so those Nephites who were in a state of total rebellion against the truth had no excuse. Meanwhile back in the Holy Land, the religion of the Jews had degenerated into a state of apostasy to the point that it was unable to bring men to a saving knowledge of the truth. For this reason the Lord cut the Jews some slack until the year 70 AD, when they were finally destroyed because, for the most part, they had rejected the Gospel and persecuted the true Church for over 40 years. At the time of the death of Christ, the Nephites were sinning against knowledge, but the Jews were largely sinning in ignorance. For the Jews, the Lord extended them another 37 years before the cup of his wrath was full.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[theplains]

On 12/06/2016 at 2:30 PM, Bobbieaware said:

It's very simple. According to the Book of Mormon, the Nephites religion was not in a state of total apostasy at the time of the death of Chrisr, so those Nephites who were in a state of total rebellion against the truth had no excuse. Meanwhile back in the Holy Land, the religion of the Jews had degenerated into a state of apostasy to the point that it was unable to bring men to a saving knowledge of the truth. For this reason the Lord cut the Jews some slack until the year 70 AD, when they were finally destroyed because, for the most part, they had rejected the Gospel and persecuted the true Church for over 40 years. At the time of the death of Christ, the Nephites were sinning against knowledge, but the Jews were largely sinning in ignorance. For the Jews, the Lord extended them another 37 years before the cup of his wrath was full.

You make some broad assumptions.

Before Jesus came, what constituted 'a saving knowledge of the truth' to the Old Testament 
Israelites?  Since the Jews never lost their Old Testament scriptures, how can you say they 
were largely sinning in ignorance?  

Are you saying all Jews across all Palestine were destroyed in AD 70 or just those in 
Jerusalem?  The Book of Mormon has about 16 (I think) cities being destroyed. Why did those 
people in all those cities endure more wrath than those in Jerusalem?

Thanks,
Jim