longview Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 14 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Beutiful theology, but we dont know, we can only hope. Yes, the Gospel is beautiful. You can have knowledge (at least some) but NOT know all things. That will come later. Thru experience you will know the TRUTH of the little things. THEN do you have HOPE that you will continue to grow in certainty. Don't try to figure out the 99% with your 1% in this stage of mortality. Ether 12:28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness. Alma 7:24 And see that ye have faith, hope, and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works. 14 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: What about the end of our known universe called big rip? What will happen to the why? Why are you focused on the "Big Rip?" There are other speculations. Such as the "Big Freeze" "Big Crunch" "Oscillating" etc. As you know from my several posts, I strongly feel the "Big Bang" did NOT happen. I trust God when He says in effect that forever is FOREVER, no beginning, no ending. Therefore the WHY is preserved. http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_bigbang_bigcrunch.html "Interestingly, recent analyses from the WMAP satellite and the Cosmic Background Imager, seem to be confirming other recent observations indicating that the universe is in fact flat (as opposed to closed or open). These experiments have revealed hot and cold spots with a size range of approximately one degree across, which, according to current theory, would be indicative of a flat universe." 15 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: And why was animal suffering for millions of years necessary? From my several posts in the past, I strongly believe in the power of God to command the elements. To reuse fragments of "dead planets" and to move orbs from place to place (see my signature line below). I do NOT believe God would need to use the combination of stellar evolution, planetary formations, geological upheavals, haphazard evolution, meteor strikes, etc to put into effect His Plan of Redemption (also called Plan of Happiness). If God is shepherding "Uncountable Mortal Worlds" then He most definitely would NOT want to endure the mind-numbing tedium of endless tinkering with the process of evolution. As for the sufferings, do not worry. All things are kept within the bounds the Lord has set. The "Fall" would not have happened if conditions were not prepared for meeting the requirements of the "Eternal Law of Justice." The Garden of Eden story tells us that God was careful about allowing Adam/Eve to make the choice for entering mortality.
mfbukowski Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 On 6/4/2016 at 0:48 PM, Bernard Gui said: Spacing Guild Navigators (administering angels) will fold space to bring the earth close enough to Kolob to be captured in its gravity and go into 1000 year orbits with all the other celestialized worlds. The transfer will be seamless and earth's inhabitants will be essentially unaware of the move except for the absence of death, disease, deformities, etc. The Navigators will then remove the fold they created and let the sun do whatever it needs to do to fulfill the measure of its creation, no problema. Yeah, but if they hit the wrong button and reverse the coils, THEN WHAT?? Cheesh.
Bernard Gui Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Yeah, but if they hit the wrong button and reverse the coils, THEN WHAT?? Cheesh. Spacing Guild Navigators (administering angels) never make mistakes.
mfbukowski Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 49 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Spacing Guild Navigators (administering angels) never make mistakes. Seriously it's an interesting concept, But I know I would get caught in the crease somewhere. 1
mfbukowski Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 20 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: The secrets of Evolution are time and death, not my own words, they are the words of a scientist. Okay, what about the event known as the cosmic big rip? Where are we going to go? Into a hand basket, in stage one.
Gray Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 Human beings cannot have been intelligently designed per LDS theology. God was once a man, ergo God cannot have designed the human body. QED, ABCDEFG.
Atheist Mormon Posted June 6, 2016 Author Posted June 6, 2016 17 hours ago, longview said: Yes, the Gospel is beautiful. You can have knowledge (at least some) but NOT know all things. I was never enlightened enough to understand what part of this "Gospel" was beautiful. The major "turnoff" for me was that someone (Jesus) would sacrifice himself for me and demand payment for it. Who asked Jesus to lay his life for me and obligate me pay ransom for the rest of my life to make up. About the literal expression of "The Gospel is beautiful"? I read the OT, NT since I was a kid, what part of it was beautiful always eluded me, if anything it is a traumatizing experience......
thesometimesaint Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 On 6/4/2016 at 4:06 PM, longview said: Skeptic asked the WHY. I responded. Now you want the HOW? Do you really expect me to explain the science of God? Do you understand the principle of FAITH? We do not know or understand the 99% but God wants us to work with the 1%. I have no problem with faith. I just want to know how to do something.
thesometimesaint Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 Skeptic: I am scientist. Does that count? Time is a constant. Without it nothing happens. Death OTOH at least in a religious sense is temporary. Right now it is suggested that the final heat death of the universe will occur some 100,000 Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion years from now. By that far off time the Gods may well once again say let there be light and it will be. 1
Atheist Mormon Posted June 6, 2016 Author Posted June 6, 2016 16 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Skeptic: I am scientist. Does that count? Time is a constant. Without it nothing happens. Death OTOH at least in a religious sense is temporary. Right now it is suggested that the final heat death of the universe will occur some 100,000 Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion years from now. By that far off time the Gods may well once again say let there be light and it will be. Then my problem with those "Gods" is not a problem. I can ignore them altogether & pursue a normal life, rather than trying to chase their invisible leads.
thesometimesaint Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 32 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: Then my problem with those "Gods" is not a problem. I can ignore them altogether & pursue a normal life, rather than trying to chase their invisible leads. Your choice.
Atheist Mormon Posted June 6, 2016 Author Posted June 6, 2016 30 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Your choice. I'm so glad you were able to make this choice.
thesometimesaint Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 19 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: I'm so glad you were able to make this choice. We all will at sometime, either in this life or the next.
Ahab Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 On 6/4/2016 at 0:42 PM, mfbukowski said: No, because he does not understand the difference between metaphysics and physics ie: the difference between scientific and philosophical/metaphysical explanations and how we determine the truth of the different statements within their spheres (D&C 93, Plus a ton of philosophers. Isn't it amazing that D&C 93 and Alma 32 teach the same thing as contemporary philosophy??) I see the same kind of thing from many who do not accept the Book of Mormon as the word of God, too. Even from my Dad and his Mom, my Grandmother, who I once thought had a deep reverence for the Bible as scripture, and their religion. They won't even seriously consider the words in the Book of Mormon, or ponder over what the words mean, and instead seem fixated on the science behind how we got that book in this day and age. Thinking they should first figure out where that book came from instead of first reading it and then figuring out what it is saying. And now that I know them better it is more obvious to me now that their reverence for the words in the Bible are based mostly on the fact that those words are in a book (or collection of books) that is called the "Holy Bible" and it has been drilled into their heads by their parents that they should reverence that particular book (or collection of books). And if those same words were not in that in that particular book they would not reverence those very same words. 1
Ahab Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: I was never enlightened enough to understand what part of this "Gospel" was beautiful. The major "turnoff" for me was that someone (Jesus) would sacrifice himself for me and demand payment for it. Who asked Jesus to lay his life for me and obligate me pay ransom for the rest of my life to make up. About the literal expression of "The Gospel is beautiful"? I read the OT, NT since I was a kid, what part of it was beautiful always eluded me, if anything it is a traumatizing experience...... The beautiful part, to me, is how any and even all of my stupid mistakes in life are not counted against me anymore once I have stopped making that (or those) stupid mistake(s). Like how all of those times that I fornicated in the past are not counted against me anymore because I am not fornicating anymore. So no more guilt or feeling bad about having done all of those stupid mistakes in my life. It's a wonderful feeling to be cleansed like this, and I hope you'll someday get to experience it. 1
mfbukowski Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 8 minutes ago, Ahab said: I see the same kind of thing from many who do not accept the Book of Mormon as the word of God, too. Even from my Dad and his Mom, my Grandmother, who I once thought had a deep reverence for the Bible as scripture, and their religion. They won't even seriously consider the words in the Book of Mormon, or ponder over what the words mean, and instead seem fixated on the science behind how we got that book in this day and age. Thinking they should first figure out where that book came from instead of first reading it and then figuring out what it is saying. And now that I know them better it is more obvious to me now that their reverence for the words in the Bible are based mostly on the fact that those words are in a book (or collection of books) that is called the "Holy Bible" and it has been drilled into their heads by their parents that they should reverence that particular book (or collection of books). And if those same words were not in that in that particular book they would not reverence those very same words. Yep that's exactly right I think the more you learn about how we got what is now taken to be the "Bible" the more you realize that if it's not confirmed in your heart by God- it's just a collection of old manuscripts various people- and we don't even know WHO in most cases- wrote. I look at both as to be evaulated strictly by their content alone and whether or not following their advice improves my life-- I honestly think that is all we have to go in in both cases and there is no difference 1
longview Posted June 7, 2016 Posted June 7, 2016 13 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: I was never enlightened enough to understand what part of this "Gospel" was beautiful. You don't think the many healings and forgiveness of sins that Jesus did during His mortal ministry was beautiful? 13 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: The major "turnoff" for me was that someone (Jesus) would sacrifice himself for me and demand payment for it. Payment for the Atonement? Your thinking has been warped. We pay tithing as a way to acknowledge the blessings of the Lord. He gives us "everything" we simply give back 10% of our annual "interest" as a token of gratitude. Nobody is forcing you to pay that. It is your choice. The Atonement is also a blessing for even the most wicked and unrepentant sinner who will end in the Telestial Kingdom where he will gain a glorious ressurrected Telestial body. This tithing is NOT payment for the Atonement. 13 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Who asked Jesus to lay his life for me and obligate me pay ransom for the rest of my life to make up. Heavenly Father (Elohim) asked His Son (Jehovah) back in the "pre-existence" to perform the Atonement. Which enabled the Plan of Redemption (Plan of Happiness) to become operative at the Fall of Adam/Eve. All the spirit children (you included) stood up and shouted for joy. Only the host of Lucifer fought this plan. 14 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: I read the OT, NT since I was a kid, what part of it was beautiful always eluded me, if anything it is a traumatizing experience...... You sound like a drama queen. Are you SO determined NOT to show any gratitude for this mortal earth? This amazing laboratory that provides us with awesome learning experiences and challenges?
Calm Posted June 7, 2016 Posted June 7, 2016 16 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: I was never enlightened enough to understand what part of this "Gospel" was beautiful. The major "turnoff" for me was that someone (Jesus) would sacrifice himself for me and demand payment for it. Who asked Jesus to lay his life for me and obligate me pay ransom for the rest of my life to make up. The payment Jesus requires is for you to choose what you want to become/be eternally, his sacrifice being what allows you to have that opportunity to choose. Commandments are not for the good of God, but for the good of mankind. Instructions on how we can with the help of God become the type of person we wish to be, in a huge part because of those we choose to align ourselves with and those commandments we decide we do not wish to implement in our lives and therefore do not receive the personal growth/progression that comes from such. 2
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 7, 2016 Posted June 7, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, Calm said: his sacrifice being what allows you to have that opportunity to choose. Our culture, intelligence, environment, genes, and the way we were raised do influence our so-called moral agency. For example, it is easier for a Catholic in his 60s to accept the teachings of our church than American Jews, scientists, and scholars. I am not saying there are no scientists and scholars that convert to our church, but very very few do. 22 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Skeptic: I am scientist. Does that count? Cool, what field? Born in the church or convert? 22 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Right now it is suggested that the final heat death of the universe will occur some 100,000 Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion years from now. By that far off time the Gods may well once again say let there be light and it will be. It's actually going to be in 20 billion years from the present. The Big Rip is our best prediction based on our modern observations, the prediction is that Dark Energy will destroy our known universe. Mormon astrophysicist Ron Hellings doesn't believe God create our known universe. I am not saying he didn't, I am agnostic about that, but Ron doesn't believe God did it. Edited June 7, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
JLHPROF Posted June 7, 2016 Posted June 7, 2016 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: It's actually going to be in 20 billion years from the present. The Big Rip is our best prediction based on our modern observations, the prediction is that Dark Energy will destroy our known universe. Well, gosh. Why worry about global warming then? Like putting a Band-Aid on an axe wound. Let's just hasten the earth and the universe to its eventual demise and put it out of its misery. Nuclear war anyone? Of course by then we may have all evolved into beings of pure energy and the destruction of matter won't matter. Bring on the science FICTION.
thesometimesaint Posted June 7, 2016 Posted June 7, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Cool, what field? Born in the church or convert? It's actually going to be in 20 billion years from the present. The Big Rip is our best prediction based on our modern observations, the prediction is that Dark Energy will destroy our known universe. Mormon astrophysicist Ron Hellings doesn't believe God create our known universe. I am not saying he didn't, I am agnostic about that, but Ron doesn't believe God did it. Started as a Chemist and changed Majors to Social Work after falling in love with Psychology. Convert at age 20. Dark Energy is just a term we use because we know virtually nothing about it. I don't know if Ron Hellings is right or not. Such is not my specialty. But I do try to keep up. Edited June 7, 2016 by thesometimesaint
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 7, 2016 Posted June 7, 2016 27 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Well, gosh.Why worry about global warming then? because Global Warming is a serious threat in my lifetime. Honestly, I am not worried about the Cosmic Big Rip, we have 20 billions years. 26 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Started as a Chemist and changed Majors to Social Work after falling in love with Psychology. Convert at age 20. Dark Energy is just a term we use because we know virtually nothing about it. I don't know if Ron Hellings is right or not. Such is not my specialty. But I do try to keep up. Cool. Just one question/ Why was animal death and suffering for millions of years necessary? way before the Fall. What does LDS doctrine say about that?
thesometimesaint Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 On 6/7/2016 at 9:19 AM, TheSkepticChristian said: because Global Warming is a serious threat in my lifetime. Honestly, I am not worried about the Cosmic Big Rip, we have 20 billions years. Cool. Just one question/ Why was animal death and suffering for millions of years necessary? way before the Fall. What does LDS doctrine say about that? To prepare this earth for us. From my reading of the Scriptures the Garden of Eden was a special place free from the confines of our world. After all, Adam and Eve were formed westwards outside of Eden. SEE Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Atheist Mormon Posted June 8, 2016 Author Posted June 8, 2016 On 6/7/2016 at 0:11 AM, longview said: "You don't think the many healings and forgiveness of sins that Jesus did during His mortal ministry was beautiful?" Not at all, it was a fantasy, concocted by some idealistic, believing man. The fact is most wars that Christians fought was lost in vain with incredible human lost and worst part was survivor women/children/men were sold to slavery. "Payment for the Atonement? Your thinking has been warped. We pay tithing as a way to acknowledge the blessings of the Lord. He gives us "everything" we simply give back 10% of our annual "interest" as a token of gratitude. Nobody is forcing you to pay that. It is your choice. The Atonement is also a blessing for even the most wicked and unrepentant sinner who will end in the Telestial Kingdom where he will gain a glorious ressurrected Telestial body. This tithing is NOT payment for the Atonement." Everything? How about absolutely nothing? I don't recall receiving anything for nothing, no matter how hard I prayed or tried to be faithful/obeying....Try this; drop everything you doing; praying, paying tithing and all those good things, even worse look at some women with lust, as a bonus you can blaspheme spirit. There won't be happening anything bad to you, in fact so much so, if anything bad happens I'll give you a $5000 check and you can put it in your favorite charity...There's nothing unseen out there (holy or unholy) that anyone should be scared. You sound like a drama queen. Are you SO determined NOT to show any gratitude for this mortal earth? This amazing laboratory that provides us with awesome learning experiences and challenges? Gratitude for what, for an entity which caused untold millions of lives? If anything He should come down and show himself to me so I can ask him some serious questions. OH...BTW, I do respect "Drama Queens" alot more. I don't mean any disrespect to your beliefs but I know for a fact (I guarantee it) they don't exist. What you gotta lose (everything to win)...Try the test...Nothing will happen to you.
Gray Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 58 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: That's a bit sad. Beauty is of course completely subjective, but I can find beauty in any number of stories that I don't take literally. 1
Recommended Posts