Tucson Temple

[Stormin' Mormon]

I'm a resident of Tucson (twelve years and counting) and this temple has us all sorts of excited.

Some trivia that has made its way around the rumor mill:

An early design was supposedly rejected by the Pima County Planning and Zoning commission because it looked too similar to the historic San Xavier del Bac Mission.  http://tucson.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/foothills-site-likely-for-mormon-temple/article_4ead4d1e-0a65-570d-b3ad-aa0d9ae5e56e.html

The dome was also a reaction to Pima County zoning, which limited the height of the towers.  Because we have a couple of observatories in the region, the dome will be lit completely with interior lighting, and will conform to local dark-skies ordinances.

A local member of the Church flies a drone over the construction site on a regular basis and posts construction updates on a Facebook page.  I have attached the latest. 

Happy to see my temple get some lovin' from the board.

[Damien the Leper]

7 hours ago, snowflake said:

So why doesn't the "gospel restoration" include the levitical priesthood laws and rituals described in the OT to be performed at LDS temples?  Again, restoration means to make like the original. These "temples" don't resemble the one described in the OT.

LDS temples do not theologically resemble Solomon's temple. The temples you're trying to compare are also part of two different religions. 

[Stormin' Mormon]

9 hours ago, snowflake said:

Growing up my Dad taught me that LDS temples resemble the temple in the Bible. Why are there so many different temple designs (I think the architecture is super cool!) but none of them resemble the ancient Jewish temple in Jerusalem?

 

The Mesa temple (and the other two that are architecturally similar) are meant to evoke Solomon's temple. 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2016 by Stormin' Mormon
Removing copyright protected photo, replacing with LDS photo

[halconero]

15 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

Florence Cathedral in Italy, Robbie.

That's it. I've been periodically messing around on Assassin's Creed II after snagging it on steam sale, which is set in Renaissance Italy. Knew I recognized it from somewhere.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Our modern sensitivities would not be able to withstand the sights and sounds and smells of an OT sacrifice. I hold to the idea that the sacrifice of the sons of Levi will be that of a broken heart and a contrite spirit, but I am willing to be corrected.

You would be wrong, strappinglad.  Today, at every Passover, the Samaritan priests conduct the same animal sacrifices which the Jews did so long ago.  The Samaritans conduct those sacrifices at their traditional holy site on Mt Gerizim (where their temple once stood until destroyed by the Jews).  They use sweet-smelling incense during the sacrifice, which is really basically a barbeque of lots of lamb for the people gathered on the mountaintop.  You can read about last year's sacrifices here http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4653140,00.html .  The next Passover will come in late April, when the entire Samaritan community will gather on the mountain again, and remain there encamped for the whole week.

These Samaritans, by the way, exhibit ancient Israelite DNA, and their priests are from the tribe of Levi.

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, snowflake said:

...............................................................

Growing up my Dad taught me that LDS temples resemble the temple in the Bible. Why are there so many different temple designs (I think the architecture is super cool!) but none of them resemble the ancient Jewish temple in Jerusalem?

Actually your Dad was correct in his basic assertion, even if the floor plan and accoutrements seem very different.  Indeed, as Paul Anderson has shown us, all temples follow local culture in their design and execution, even though they maintain a similar function.  After all, Solomon's temple is built by Phoenician experts, and shares fundamental similarities with other ancient Near Eastern temples of its day (cf. the Ain Dara Temple in Syria, the Israelite tabernacle in the desert, and the small temple at Arad, to name only a few).

So what do they have in common?  They feature a tripartite structure consisting of a forecourt (pronaos), court (naos), and holy of holies (inner sanctum), which is reached by passing through a special veil in order to enter into the presence of God.  These are indicative of the three, progressive levels of glory, Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial.  The typology of the animal sacrifice conducted on the large altar entails temporal atonement/redemption for sin, which is realized in the meridian of time by the infinite sacrifice of Jesus as the Passover Lamb of God -- whose blood saves us all.

Ann Madsen has created an excellent DVD which includes a 13-minute virtual tour of Solomon's Temple which provides an excellent understanding of the basics using CGI, but you have to buy it for about $20 -- “Opening Isaiah” (Excel Entertainment) -- but she discusses the meaning in several sources:

Ann Madsen, “Solomon's Temple:: A Virtual View and Assessment of its Physical Appearance and Purpose,” in Ascending the Mountain of the Lord: Temple, Praise, and Worship in the Old Testament (BYU Religious Studies Center, 2013), online at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDuYjU-gCH4 .

Ann Madsen, "Temples in the Margins: The Temple in Isaiah," presented at the Oct 2014 Temple on Mount Zion Conference, Provo, Utah, online at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j05kFNUrPuA .

You may also want to take this virtual tour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcV_qBgDb1M  (Nova discussion of Solomon's Temple).

Edited March 17, 2016 by Robert F. Smith

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, Valentinus said:

LDS temples do not theologically resemble Solomon's temple. The temples you're trying to compare are also part of two different religions. 

In fact they do, but we won't discuss it.  I won't anyway.

Edit: See Robert's posts above.

Edited March 17, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 3/16/2016 at 11:04 PM, Valentinus said:

I love the design of this temple. It's bad@$$. 

 

Maybe you like it because it appears to be cruciform, but seems to be in fact square from the construction photo above, which kind of shows the floorplan.

The symbolism of that is powerful.  A square with a cross, which of course is made from right angles.  The dome which is probably the celestial room appears to be circular, so you have right angles, squares, and a circle at the center.  Powerful stuff.  The square and cross is a common LDS symbol which can be subtly found in many LDS temples including the LA temple.   The dome could be straight off any European cathedral, and the four wings which are a bit higher and protrude form the cross.

Of course the capitol buildings of practical any state you wish to reference also take on this basic structure.  Because of the European cathedrals, St, Peter's, St. Pauls, etc etc this style conveys authority and peace. 

I think perhaps we are finally getting over cross-phobia, thankfully, with this and perhaps the Rome temple.  We are finally getting away from 60's spaceship architecture and going more classical, I think. Less Jetsons, more Europe.  It's a beautiful building!

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I'm a resident of Tucson (twelve years and counting) and this temple has us all sorts of excited.

Some trivia that has made its way around the rumor mill:

An early design was supposedly rejected by the Pima County Planning and Zoning commission because it looked too similar to the historic San Xavier del Bac Mission.  http://tucson.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/foothills-site-likely-for-mormon-temple/article_4ead4d1e-0a65-570d-b3ad-aa0d9ae5e56e.html

The dome was also a reaction to Pima County zoning, which limited the height of the towers.  Because we have a couple of observatories in the region, the dome will be lit completely with interior lighting, and will conform to local dark-skies ordinances.

A local member of the Church flies a drone over the construction site on a regular basis and posts construction updates on a Facebook page.  I have attached the latest. 

Happy to see my temple get some lovin' from the board.

This shows the cruciform structure.

I am glad they dumped that earlier design- it looks like the Alamo with Independence Hall on top.  Odd mixture.

Sorry all- it's my art history half coming out!

[Bobbieaware]

On March 16, 2016 at 10:18 AM, halconero said:

I'm trying to place which other building it reminds me of. I want to say the Capitol Building, but I'm not sure that fits entirely.

Either way, it's a pretty rad design.

Has anybody on this thread pointed out that it looks somewhat like Saint Peter's Basilica in Rome?

Edited March 17, 2016 by Bobbieaware
Insert photo.

[Kenngo1969]

On 3/16/2016 at 8:18 AM, halconero said:

I'm trying to place which other building it reminds me of. I want to say the Capitol Building, but I'm not sure that fits entirely.

Either way, it's a pretty rad design.

 

On 3/17/2016 at 9:04 PM, Valentinus said:

Florence Cathedral in Italy, Robbie.

With regard to edifices of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I was gonna say the Newport Beach, California Temple, but the latter has more of a "domed spire" (if one can call it that) than simply a dome.  

 http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/newportbeach/gallery/

The guy who maintains this site (who, to the best of my knowledge, only receives Brownie Points for the endeavor, unless he gets the odd donation or two from a close friend here or there; he certainly doesn't try to make his living off of it, unlike some disaffected former members) also deserves major, major kudos.

[snowflake]

On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 11:10 PM, Valentinus said:

LDS temples do not theologically resemble Solomon's temple. The temples you're trying to compare are also part of two different religions. 

As I read the NT, I just don't see the need for temples, Jesus is the last sacrifice, and he predicted the destruction of the temple in Matt 24. The veil was torn in half giving us direct access to the Father through Christ. If I am to believe that NT "Christian church" was performing the same ordinances and rituals that are performed in LDS temples today, where is the evidence to do so?  It is not found anywhere in the NT.  Again, this "restoration" of the original Christian church LDS leaders speak of does not seem to be based on any historical New testament evidence.   

Volgadon, sorry I am not familiar with the temple of which you speak, I need to do some homework.

[flameburns623]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

With regard to edifices of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I was gonna say the Newport Beach, California Temple, but the latter has more of a "domed spire" (if one can call it that) than simply a dome.  

 http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/newportbeach/gallery/

The guy who maintains this site (who, to the best of my knowledge, only receives Brownie Points for the endeavor, unless he gets the odd donation or two from a close friend here or there; he certainly doesn't try to make his living off of it, unlike some disaffected former members) also deserves major, major kudos.

Is there a link for donations?

[flameburns623]

27 minutes ago, snowflake said:

As I read the NT, I just don't see the need for temples, Jesus is the last sacrifice, and he predicted the destruction of the temple in Matt 24. The veil was torn in half giving us direct access to the Father through Christ. If I am to believe that NT "Christian church" was performing the same ordinances and rituals that are performed in LDS temples today, where is the evidence to do so?  It is not found anywhere in the NT.  Again, this "restoration" of the original Christian church LDS leaders speak of does not seem to be based on any historical New testament evidence . .  . .

II Nephi 29:3 

And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.

See following:

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/1999-fair-conference/1999-early-christian-and-jewish-rituals-related-to-temple-practices

Edited March 21, 2016 by flameburns623

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

As I read the NT, I just don't see the need for temples, Jesus is the last sacrifice, and he predicted the destruction of the temple in Matt 24. The veil was torn in half giving us direct access to the Father through Christ. If I am to believe that NT "Christian church" was performing the same ordinances and rituals that are performed in LDS temples today, where is the evidence to do so?  It is not found anywhere in the NT. 

See Acts 1  [3] To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

Please tell us what Christ was teaching the apostles for 40 days -- did He merely repeat the Sermon on the Mount 10,000 times?  There are hints from the writings of the apostles -- Peter writes about preaching the gospel in the spirit world to those who never heard it here in mortality, Paul writes about the three degrees of glory and that the Christians were performing baptism for the dead.

So YOU tell us what He taught since you say "I just don't see the need for temples."  These were sacred teachings were not revealed to the world until the Lord restored the Fullness of the Gospel by calling a prophet in our day.

Edited March 21, 2016 by cdowis

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

As I read the NT, I just don't see the need for temples, Jesus is the last sacrifice, and he predicted the destruction of the temple in Matt 24. The veil was torn in half giving us direct access to the Father through Christ. If I am to believe that NT "Christian church" was performing the same ordinances and rituals that are performed in LDS temples today, where is the evidence to do so?  It is not found anywhere in the NT.  Again, this "restoration" of the original Christian church LDS leaders speak of does not seem to be based on any historical New testament evidence.   

Volgadon, sorry I am not familiar with the temple of which you speak, I need to do some homework.

This is a circular argument- either you see the need for temples or you don't. If you see the need for them, the passages jump out at you, if you do not see the need, then they do not jump out at you. Hebrews 9 and 10 is full of veiled temple references

Matthew 17:verse 1-10 speaks of an odd event including heavenly messengers, building three tabernacles, paralleling the three basic temple chambers. and the admonition to "tell the vision to no man" until after the resurrection, at which time such knowledge would be conveyed to others, that is other than the first presidency, Peter, James and John.

Jesus being the last sacrifice is not relevant to the temple issue.  Sacrifices are not performed in present day temples.

If you think about it just a tiny bit, IF there were esoteric rituals in early Christianity, of course they would not be directly referenced, and of course the uninitiated would not see the need for them.  That again points to the need for personal revelation and the fact that the scriptures are not all that is needed to complete our spiritual journeys.

Jesus taught in parables- either you understand them or you don't.

I don't want to give you a hard time, it's just that I have seen this argument so many times, and if you think about it for just a second, you will see that the argument doesn't work.

[mfbukowski]

More evidence of early Christian temple rites evolving over time and being used to this day are found in many Coptic Orthodox rites, as shown here:

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/2_confirmation.html

Quote

 

Regarding the Sacrament of Myron, some of our Church fathers said :

 

�Whoever is baptized should be anointed by Myron, to become the anointed for God, and so is granted the grace of the Holy Spirit� (St. Cyprianus)

 

�We also, after getting out of the Baptismal Font are granted the anointment officially as was Christ, I mean the Holy Spirit� (St. Kyrillos of Jerusalem)

 

�After going out of the Baptismal water, we are anointed by Holy Oil according to old tradition.  The anointment is accomplished externally on our bodies so that we may bear spiritual fruits� (St. Tertullian)

 

�In the Sacrament of Baptism the body is cleansed, so that the soul may be purified, and in the Sacrament of Anointment the body is anointed so that the soul may be sanctified� (St. Tertullian)

THE RITE OF ANOINTMENT BY HOLY MYRON

 

After baptizing the child, the mother receives him on the right side of the priest in a large clean towel, and wipes his body from water.

 

After Baptism, the priest anoints the baptized according to age, males first then females.

 

If available, another priest may carry out the Sacrament of Anointment on the baptized, as soon as they come out of the Baptismal Font and their bodies are wiped and dried.  After the mother dries her child, she places him on the prepared table near the Baptismal Font, so that the priest can anoint the child by the Myron with 36 crosses, on all the joints and senses.

The Myron Rite takes place as follows:

 

The priest holds the bottle of Holy Myron and prays saying:

�O Almighty Maker of all miracles, who is Omnipotent, whose will and power can do anything. Grant the grace of the Holy Spirit when the Holy Myron is sprinkled, to become a living seal and steadfastness to Your servants through Your Only Begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. Glory, honor, dominion and worship are due to you, together with Him, and the consubstantial Holy Spirit, now and forever Amen.�

NOTES:

This prayer is not for the blessing of the Myron oil, but for asking the Holy Spirit which dwells in the Myron, to also dwell in the baptized person, through the anointment.

THE ANOINTMENTS

The priest places his right thumb on top of the opening of the Myron bottle, and turns it downwards to wet his finger with the Myron. He then anoints the baptized as follows :

The first four anointments (eight crosses) are on the senses

Firstly, the top of the head, the nostrils, the mouth, and the right ear

Then, the right eye, the left eye, an finally the left ear

Whilst anointing, the priest says, �In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.  The anointment of grace of the Holy Spirit, Amen.�

 

NOTES:

 

He anoints The Head to sanctify it. The head contains the brain, where thinking takes place. It is the brain which distinguishes humankind from other creatures. A good mind is of great use and benefit to oneself and to others also. King Solomon praises the mind saying, �When wisdom enters your heart and knowledge is pleasant to your soul, discretion will preserve you, understanding will keep you, to deliver from the way evil� (Proverbs 2: 10-12).

 

Also, the Lord Jesus praised the young man who answered wisely and said to him: �You are not far from the Kingdom of God�  (Mark 12:34). And St. Paul our teacher prays for us saying, �And the peace of God which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus� (Philippians 4:7).

 

The Nostrils contain the sense of smell, and it is an important sense, for if a person is not careful and alert, it is possible for impure thoughts to enter ones heart through this sense. Hence, the priest anoints it to protect it against all sin and lust.

 

The Mouth with the tongue is the most dangerous organ in a person...

 

�If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one�s religion is useless�  (James 1:26).

 

�If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body" (James 3:2).

 

�The tongue is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison, it defiles the whole body and sets on fire the course of nature, and it is set on fire by hell� (James 3:8,6), if it is not controlled.

 

The Psalmist prays, �Set a guard O Lord, over my mouth. Keep watch over the door of my lips.  Do not incline my heart to any evil thing� (Psalm 141:3,4)

And the wise King Solomon said: �Whoever guards his mouth and tongue keeps his soul from troubles� (Proverbs 21:23), and, �Put away from you a deceitful mouth, and put perverse lips far from you� (Proverbs 4:24.  We ought to keep our tongue from sins such as swearing, insulting, lying, judging, and gossiping. Our words should always be graceful.

The Ears provide us with the important sense of hearing, which should also be controlled, and the anointing of the Myron is a strong weapon in control what we hear. We protect our ears from hearing such things as gossip, and other conversations which may poison our hearts with revenge and hatred. We also protect our ears from hearing certain songs which may poison our hearts with lustful thoughts.

 

The Eyes are the most important sense, through which enters more than 80% of information which may affect our hearts. If the information is holy, it sanctifies the heart, and vice versa. For this reason, we should control what we see so that we may keep ourselves pure. The tenth commandment says, �Do not covet�. The Psalmist prays, �Turn away my eyes from looking at worthless things� (Psalm 119:37), and, �Open my eyes, that I may see wondrous things from Your law�  (Psalm 119:17).

 

The second group of four anointments are as follows :

 

The priest wets his right thumb with the Myron another time and anoints,

The heart (chest)

The navel

The back

The lower back

Whilst anointing the priest prays : �An anointment as a token for the kingdom of heaven," as this holy anointment makes the Holy Spirit works in us and prepares us for the inheritance of the Kingdom of heaven.

NOTES:

 

Anointing the heart is very important as it is the organ which  pumps blood to all the body.  A healthy heart is important for a healthy body, and its spiritual welfare is required, as the wise King Solomon advises us saying, �Keep your heart with all diligence, for out of it spring the issues of life� (Proverbs 4:23).

 

The Navel is the place to which was joined the umbilical cord when a person was a fetus in his mother�s womb. Through it the fetus is nourished and nurtured, and so by anointing it, the holy Myron is protecting it against Satan.

 

The Back supports the body and is the place of the spine.  If the spine is infected or damaged, severe pain may occur and even lead to paralysis. So it is important to protect it through the anointing of the Myron.

 

The Lower Back is the area of sexual lusts, and so the anointing of the Myron sanctifies it and protects it by the power of the living Cross.  This area also includes the kidneys.

This group of anointments include the anointing of the heart, which must be cared for and renewed, as the Psalmist prayed,�Create in me a pure heart O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me� (Psalm 51:10), and, �Examine me O Lord and prove me. Try my mind and my heart� (Psalm 26:2).

The third group of anointments are on the six joints of the arm:

The priest wets his thumb with the holy Myron, and anoints,

The right shoulder joint

The right underarm                              

The right elbow joint

The inner elbow joint

The right wrist joint

The back of the right wrist

 

Whilst anointing, the priest prays, �An anointment for the community of eternal life, Amen�.

 

The fourth group of anointments are on the other six joints:

The left shoulder joint

The left underarm                               

The left elbow joint

The left elbow joint

The left wrist joint

The back of the left wrist

Whilst anointing, the priest prays, �A holy anointment of our Lord Jesus Christ, an imperishable seal, Amen."

 

The passage continues farther in much detail.

Edited March 21, 2016 by mfbukowski

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, snowflake said:

 If I am to believe that NT "Christian church" was performing the same ordinances and rituals that are performed in LDS temples today, where is the evidence to do so?

Let's see - early Christian examples of practices derived from or directly exemplifying our modern endowment?
Here we go:

John 19:23

• When the soldiers wanted to divide Jesus' coat or tunic, they saw it was not a patchwork of pieces sewn together. Rather, it had no seams, a quality garment that took some time to make. It was the same quality of clothing, woven from top to bottom in one piece, worn by the high priest in Jerusalem's temple. The first century Jewish historian Josephus stated in his book "Antiquities (History) of the Jews" that the temple's high priest had to wear a vestment colored blue. This clothing was not made by pieces of clothe sewn together, or even two large pieces. It was one long vestment that was parted along the breast and back.

http://www.templestudy.com/2008/04/17/early-byzantine-veil-with-gammadia/  (not to mention this non Christian derivation).
http://byustudies.byu.edu/content/early-christian-prayer-circle
1 Corinthians 15:29
John 13:8
John 12:7
Revelation 1:6
Revelation 2:17
Revelation 3:4

ALL temple items from early Christianity.  And that's just for starters - I could spend all day pulling together more.
Any of these alone wouldn't mean much, but you put them ALL together, recognize that Joseph Smith was unaware of most of them, and you get a pattern scattered through history including in the time of Christ.  Joseph would never have been able to put together such a jigsaw puzzle to form a coherent ordinance.  It would have been like putting a smashed egg back together.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

More evidence of early Christian temple rites evolving over time and being used to this day are found in many Coptic Orthodox rites, as shown here:

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/2_confirmation.html

The passage continues farther in much detail.

Hmm...that sounds VERY familiar.

[mfbukowski]

The existence of baptistries is another indication of early Christian practices paralleling present day temple usage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptistery

Catechumans (those not yet baptized, or recently baptized) were not allowed entry into cathedrals for mass, but had their own "pre-mass" offered in baptistries.  The "mass of the catechumens" was (and maybe still is) incorporated into a part of the Catholic mass.  Catechumens were not yet considered "worthy" for the full mass- paralleling our practice of using chapels for Sunday services, and temples for higher ordinances.

 

Quote

 

Catechumens were limited as to their attendance in formal services. As unbaptized, they could not actively take part in any service, for that was reserved for those baptized. One practice permitted them to remain in the first part of the mass, but even in the earliest centuries dismissed them before the Eucharist. Others had them entering through a side door, or observing from the side, from a gallery, or near the font; while it was not unknown to bar them from all services until baptized.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechumen#Historic_Christian_practice

These structures area also an evidence of the need for proper priesthood authority for baptism- part of their function was to keep them locked to control the use of the fonts for baptisms, so that only baptisms legitimized by the church were done.

Many European cathedrals have baptistries.

Edited March 21, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

31 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Let's see - early Christian examples of practices derived from or directly exemplifying our modern endowment?
Here we go:

John 19:23

• When the soldiers wanted to divide Jesus' coat or tunic, they saw it was not a patchwork of pieces sewn together. Rather, it had no seams, a quality garment that took some time to make. It was the same quality of clothing, woven from top to bottom in one piece, worn by the high priest in Jerusalem's temple. The first century Jewish historian Josephus stated in his book "Antiquities (History) of the Jews" that the temple's high priest had to wear a vestment colored blue. This clothing was not made by pieces of clothe sewn together, or even two large pieces. It was one long vestment that was parted along the breast and back.

http://www.templestudy.com/2008/04/17/early-byzantine-veil-with-gammadia/  (not to mention this non Christian derivation).
http://byustudies.byu.edu/content/early-christian-prayer-circle
1 Corinthians 15:29
John 13:8
John 12:7
Revelation 1:6
Revelation 2:17
Revelation 3:4

ALL temple items from early Christianity.  And that's just for starters - I could spend all day pulling together more.
Any of these alone wouldn't mean much, but you put them ALL together, recognize that Joseph Smith was unaware of most of them, and you get a pattern scattered through history including in the time of Christ.  Joseph would never have been able to put together such a jigsaw puzzle to form a coherent ordinance.  It would have been like putting a smashed egg back together.

This is also directly relevant to your comments here- scapulars.

As a Catholic, I had a scapular, and today many catholics wear medals, like the "St. Christopher" medal which became popular as a fad for surfers in the 1960's.   One of these medals is called the "Miraculous Medal" which is actually regarded as a sort of scapular. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_Medal

 Those who wear scapulars ore often members of a "third order" as a lay person, evidencing a special dedication to a certain saint and taking on of covenants dedicating one's life in a certain way.  The scapular I had was made of two patches of cloth with symbols on them, connected by strings.  The patches were worn on the chest and back, with the strings connecting them over the shoulders, and worn under the clothing.  I was told it was part of a much bigger garment once, but now these were just symbols of the garment itself.  That is shown in this wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapular

When I first heard of garments- the connection was obvious, and I saw these as obvious evidence that the LDS church had yet another connection with the primitive church.

Edited March 21, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Hmm...that sounds VERY familiar.

Well yeah, of course because old Joe was Coptic Orthodox before his first vision.  That's a little known fact.

[Saint Sinner]

I absolutely recognize the relevance and need for LDS temples within an LDS context. I believe they should continue to build them to serve the LDS world at large.

That said, Jesus said to destroy the temple and he'll rebuild it in 3 days. However, he was referencing himself metaphorically. He IS the ultimate Temple and all it has to offer. Despite alluding to his death, the rebuilding references his coming Resurrection. Even if another temple had never been built, all covenants would be manifested and upheld in his mere existence.

Returning to the LDS context, a world without temples is not a concern. Those who believe in the holiness and need for the temple should go often. My brother and his wife have kids ranging from 6 to 17. Both work full-time jobs and fulfill their church callings and obligations. Not one time, to my knowledge, have they ever allowed life circumstances to prevent them from going to the temple once a month. I apologize if this seems like a lecture.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 3/21/2016 at 8:18 AM, snowflake said:

As I read the NT, I just don't see the need for temples, Jesus is the last sacrifice, and he predicted the destruction of the temple in Matt 24. The veil was torn in half giving us direct access to the Father through Christ. If I am to believe that NT "Christian church" was performing the same ordinances and rituals that are performed in LDS temples today, where is the evidence to do so?  It is not found anywhere in the NT.  Again, this "restoration" of the original Christian church LDS leaders speak of does not seem to be based on any historical New testament evidence.   

Volgadon, sorry I am not familiar with the temple of which you speak, I need to do some homework.

You do need to do some homework:  Baptism for the dead was done by early Christians, and they worshiped regularly at the temple in Jerusalem after the death of Jesus.  You need to understand what actually took place in the Jewish temples, and how that set of ordinances and liturgy were adopted by the early Christians (who were Jews), and are still practiced today.  If you need sources, I can provide them.

The Restoration of all things entails all dispensations, not simply that of early Christianity.  No existing church on Earth is closer in practice and theology to the early Christian Church than the LDS Church.

[saemo]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You do need to do some homework:  Baptism for the dead was done by early Christians, and they worshiped regularly at the temple in Jerusalem after the death of Jesus.  You need to understand what actually took place in the Jewish temples, and how that set of ordinances and liturgy were adopted by the early Christians (who were Jews), and are still practiced today.  If you need sources, I can provide them.

The Restoration of all things entails all dispensations, not simply that of early Christianity.  No existing church on Earth is closer in practice and theology to the early Christian Church than the LDS Church.

Baptism for the dead was done by someone, not necessarily early Christians.

The case for temple worship can only be applied to Jewish Christians. The First Council at Jerusalem decided that pagan converts to Christianity did not need to be circumcised, this indicates first that pagan converts did not first become Jews, and second that non-Jewish Christians were not worshipping in a Jewish temple. Of course, if temple worship were a requirement for a Christian, then the only alternative is that non-Jews were not actually practicing Christians. Which, has no historical support (either secular or religious history).

In addition, Jewish Christians were expelled from the synagogues very early in Christian history. The temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD, as Jesus prophesied. While prophesying so, he named HIMSELF as the temple. 

A Christianized form of synagogue worship did indeed live on, in Christian liturgy.

Edited March 22, 2016 by saemo