The issue is chastity not gender

[Teancum]

43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

To be clear:

1. I believe that monogamy is not corrupt, but is a lesser law than polygamy (tithing to consecration)
2. A correct understanding is to put eternal marriage sealed by priesthood authority ahead as being more valid than man's governmental "marriages".
3. The norm of civil marriage (which now can include SSM) is more corrupt than ever.

Thank you for clarifying.

[Ahab]

35 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

To be clear:

1. I believe that monogamy is not corrupt, but is a lesser law than polygamy (tithing to consecration)
2. A correct understanding is to put eternal marriage sealed by priesthood authority ahead as being more valid than man's governmental "marriages".
3. The norm of civil marriage (which now can include SSM) is more corrupt than ever.

Interesting how they talk as if we're telling them something they have never heard before, isn't it.

Not sure that I'd say monogamy sanctioned by the priesthood of God is a lesser law than polygamy sanctioned by the same priesthood,  though.  I think just one law short of the same law allowing for more than 1 spouse,  realizing women have to choose between which husband they want to be sealed to forever if they were ordained to be sealed to more than one man.

It should maybe be said that a sealing ordinance is in effect ordaining something, and that something that has been ordained can be cancelled so that it will not happen. 

Thus the power to seal as well as loose through the keys of the priesthood. 

 

[Okrahomer]

On March 10, 2016 at 8:19 AM, Five Solas said:

That is a hard statement. 

But I suspect many LDS males who endured "worthiness interviews"--especially in their teenage years--wherein a bishop would ask directly or indirectly as to whether they masturbated...  Well, you look 'em in the eye & you tell 'em a lie.  And then you feel *really* bad about yourself and any doubts you have about the Church and its claims--they are obviously your own fault, manifestations of your own deceit and secret unworthiness.  The problem isn't the Church--the problem is YOU.  I was there.    

Any such males might be inclined to agree--more truth than poetry in the above.  It's about control.  It's all about control.

--Erik

 

Hi Five Solas,

How do you feel about John Piper (whom you have previously quoted admiringly) as well as other evangelical theologians and ministers on this subject?  As it turns out John Piper has quite a lot to say about it, and his views don't seem all that different from LDS teaching.  Here's one quote to consider:

“So I vote no on masturbation. There may be other reasons why it is wrong. For now I rest my vote on the inevitable sexual images which accompany masturbation and which turn women into sexual objects. The sexual thoughts that enable masturbation do not help any man to treat women with greater respect. Therefore masturbation produces real and legitimate guilt and stands in the way of obedience.”  http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/missions-and-masturbation

And for the life of me, this evangelical minister's (John Bigney) approach sounds a lot like an "infamous" LDS worthiness interview:

“After lovingly prodding and gently questioning him, I discovered that this young teenager was battling with masturbation. Feeling defeated, Jeremy began to doubt if there really was an all- powerful God who hears prayer. Where was God? Why was the temptation still so overwhelming? He’d begged God to deliver him from this temptation, but his repeated failures had left him frustrated and skeptical...Jeremy needs to be told that although it is wrong, it is not an unpardonable sin! With his feet firmly planted on truth, one can now give him hope. He should be reminded that the fight against sin is one that every believer shares. He should also be assured that God has not abandoned him but has provided a “way out” (I Corinthians 10:13) that the two of you will seek together...As soul physicians we must pray for discernment to apply the ointment of His Word to the right spot, in the right measure, and in the right way. We are exhorted to restore Jeremy and others “in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.” (Galatians 6:1) If we wield the “double-edged sword” with gentleness and love, we can anticipate great success in our efforts to help teenagers overcome the habit of masturbation.”  http://www.purelifeministries.org/filerequest/1812.pdf

I like the term "soul physician."  I'd say it describes almost perfectly nearly every LDS Bishop I have ever known.  I'm saddened your experience was so different.

[UtahTexan]

On 3/9/2016 at 9:12 PM, Duncan said:

except heterosexuals can date, get married, have sex without getting exed and homosexuals can't do any of that without church discipine-God said it's not good that man be alone and probably for good reason

Yeah...funny how things go when you Obey God

[Five Solas]

10 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

Hi Five Solas,

How do you feel about John Piper (whom you have previously quoted admiringly) as well as other evangelical theologians and ministers on this subject?  As it turns out John Piper has quite a lot to say about it, and his views don't seem all that different from LDS teaching.  Here's one quote to consider:

“So I vote no on masturbation. There may be other reasons why it is wrong. For now I rest my vote on the inevitable sexual images which accompany masturbation and which turn women into sexual objects. The sexual thoughts that enable masturbation do not help any man to treat women with greater respect. Therefore masturbation produces real and legitimate guilt and stands in the way of obedience.”  http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/missions-and-masturbation

And for the life of me, this evangelical minister's (John Bigney) approach sounds a lot like an "infamous" LDS worthiness interview:

“After lovingly prodding and gently questioning him, I discovered that this young teenager was battling with masturbation. Feeling defeated, Jeremy began to doubt if there really was an all- powerful God who hears prayer. Where was God? Why was the temptation still so overwhelming? He’d begged God to deliver him from this temptation, but his repeated failures had left him frustrated and skeptical...Jeremy needs to be told that although it is wrong, it is not an unpardonable sin! With his feet firmly planted on truth, one can now give him hope. He should be reminded that the fight against sin is one that every believer shares. He should also be assured that God has not abandoned him but has provided a “way out” (I Corinthians 10:13) that the two of you will seek together...As soul physicians we must pray for discernment to apply the ointment of His Word to the right spot, in the right measure, and in the right way. We are exhorted to restore Jeremy and others “in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.” (Galatians 6:1) If we wield the “double-edged sword” with gentleness and love, we can anticipate great success in our efforts to help teenagers overcome the habit of masturbation.”  http://www.purelifeministries.org/filerequest/1812.pdf

I like the term "soul physician."  I'd say it describes almost perfectly nearly every LDS Bishop I have ever known.  I'm saddened your experience was so different.

Regarding Piper, you are changing the subject.  The question isn't whether masturbation is good or bad (the Bible is actually silent on the subject--though it has plenty to say about lust).  And I certainly don't care to debate that with you here (or anywhere).

The question, raised by Monster (with the bearded-Spock avatar) back on page 1 of this thread is whether the LDS Church uses sex, specifically its teachings and proceedings on the subject--as an instrument of control.  It's a tough question for LDS, I'm sure--but it shouldn't be off-limits to discussion.  And no doubt such discussion would better served by its own thread rather than continuing at page 8+ here. 

Regarding John Bigney, I'm not familiar.  But the opening words in that paragraph make for uncomfortable reading.  I'm be concerned about anyone who makes this topic an area of focus in their ministry and/or a line of inquiry to be pursued with teenagers.  

--Erik

 

[Storm Rider]

Erik, you mentioned control.  Control of what?  

Also, look at Gen 38:9.  The OT is not silent on the topic completely.  

I don't think that the prophets and Jesus were as interested in control of the children of God so much as defining what is sin and to warn them about the wages of sin.  Were it not so the topic of sexual impurity or the misuse of sexuality would not have been addressed as often as it was.  Just two cents. 

[Five Solas]

18 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Erik, you mentioned control.  Control of what?  

Also, look at Gen 38:9.  The OT is not silent on the topic completely.  

I don't think that the prophets and Jesus were as interested in control of the children of God so much as defining what is sin and to warn them about the wages of sin.  Were it not so the topic of sexual impurity or the misuse of sexuality would not have been addressed as often as it was.  Just two cents. 

Regarding Genesis 38:9, the coitus interruptus practiced by Onan isn't the same thing as masturbation.  Yes, it comes as a surprise to a lot of LDS (and some Christians too) that the Bible really doesn't directly address this topic, anywhere. 

Regarding control, think of it this way:  If I can get you to think that YOU are the problem when you have doubts about the doctrines, history, leadership etc., of the Church (because of you own deceit and secret unworthiness when the bishop asked if you masturbate & you lied in response)--then I've succeeded in manipulating your thoughts, your mind.  The Church is TRUE, the problem is YOU. 

That, my friend, constitutes a form of control.  You don't have to physically restrain someone to exert control over him or her.  

--Erik

 

[Storm Rider]

10 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Regarding Genesis 38:9, the coitus interruptus practiced by Onan isn't the same thing as masturbation.  Yes, it comes as a surprise to a lot of LDS (and some Christians too) that the Bible really doesn't directly address this topic, anywhere. 

Regarding control, think of it this way:  If I can get you to think that YOU are the problem when you have doubts about the doctrines, history, leadership etc., of the Church (because of you own deceit and secret unworthiness when the bishop asked if you masturbate & you lied in response)--then I've succeeded in manipulating your thoughts, your mind.  The Church is TRUE, the problem is YOU. 

That, my friend, constitutes a form of control.  You don't have to physically restrain someone to exert control over him or her.  

--Erik

 

Just to be clear, I was never asked about any sexual act in any interview I have had with a church leader at any level during my life time.  Although I don't accept your premise, I do think that individuals can manipulate others for wrong or evil purposes.  I don't think the type of control you are positing is common in the Church or in most churches.  

Gen 38:9 is exactly what the result of masturbation is - it is the wasting of seed rather than creating life.  The process may be different, but the outcome is identical. I don't think it is difficult to grasp or hidden.  

In closing, coming to an acknowledgement that each of us is a sinner is important, if not vital, in the growth of a disciple of Jesus Christ.  Attempting to aggrandize our sinful nature in order to appear that we are uniquely sinful is not helpful proper.  Such an understanding stunts spiritual growth and may result in a rather shallow attempt at control or manipulation of others.  

[Okrahomer]

2 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Regarding Piper, you are changing the subject.  The question isn't whether masturbation is good or bad (the Bible is actually silent on the subject--though it has plenty to say about lust).  And I certainly don't care to debate that with you here (or anywhere).

The question, raised by Monster (with the bearded-Spock avatar) back on page 1 of this thread is whether the LDS Church uses sex, specifically its teachings and proceedings on the subject--as an instrument of control.  It's a tough question for LDS, I'm sure--but it shouldn't be off-limits to discussion.  And no doubt such discussion would better served by its own thread rather than continuing at page 8+ here. 

Regarding John Bigney, I'm not familiar.  But the opening words in that paragraph make for uncomfortable reading.  I'm be concerned about anyone who makes this topic an area of focus in their ministry and/or a line of inquiry to be pursued with teenagers.  

--Erik

 

Hi Erik,

I was responding to your post, not Monster's.  I was pointing toward a potential double standard in the way you describe worthiness interviews as something to be “endured” and as nothing more than a way for the Church to “control” its members. As an evangelical, why do you choose to see it that way--in the most negative light?   As I said, John Piper (and a whole host of other evangelical professors and teachers) seem to share LDS views about this subject.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

 

Gen 38:9 is exactly what the result of masturbation is - it is the wasting of seed rather than creating life.  The process may be different, but the outcome is identical. I don't think it is difficult to grasp or hidden. 

But it was a very specific context and thus we should be careful about applying the verse to a broader application that it may or may not be relevant to.

Onan was essentially trying to have the advantages of a Levirate marriage (legitimate sex as well as everything else that came along with the role such as control over his dead brother's property and appreciation from his father) while trying to keeo all the inheritance from his father for himself (if the widow had no child to inherit, the property would not be split).  His rejection of the Law to care for his brother and his widow and to obey his father may have been why 'wasting his seed' was seen as so evil.

[Teancum]

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 2:25 PM, Ahab said:

Interesting how they talk as if we're telling them something they have never heard before, isn't it.

Not sure that I'd say monogamy sanctioned by the priesthood of God is a lesser law than polygamy sanctioned by the same priesthood,  though.  I think just one law short of the same law allowing for more than 1 spouse,  realizing women have to choose between which husband they want to be sealed to forever if they were ordained to be sealed to more than one man.

It should maybe be said that a sealing ordinance is in effect ordaining something, and that something that has been ordained can be cancelled so that it will not happen. 

Thus the power to seal as well as loose through the keys of the priesthood. 

 

I have heard it all before. I uses to believe it.  Now I don't and find it foolishness and strange that so many are quite fine with what polygamy and polyandry ended up with knowing that those who believe it was all quite fine and from God would never ever accept it from someone other than the LDS founding prophets and apostles.

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

Yeah...funny how things go when you Obey God

Yes.  Isis devotees think they are obeying God as well.  Funny that! 

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Just to be clear, I was never asked about any sexual act in any interview I have had with a church leader at any level during my life time.  Although I don't accept your premise, I do think that individuals can manipulate others for wrong or evil purposes.  I don't think the type of control you are positing is common in the Church or in most churches.  

Gen 38:9 is exactly what the result of masturbation is - it is the wasting of seed rather than creating life.  The process may be different, but the outcome is identical. I don't think it is difficult to grasp or hidden.  

In closing, coming to an acknowledgement that each of us is a sinner is important, if not vital, in the growth of a disciple of Jesus Christ.  Attempting to aggrandize our sinful nature in order to appear that we are uniquely sinful is not helpful proper.  Such an understanding stunts spiritual growth and may result in a rather shallow attempt at control or manipulation of others.  

I used to have a bishop ask me about masterbation in every interview that I had with him.  He wanted to know how often and then tell me to stop.

Someone once said:  There are two kinds of guys.  Those who admit to masterbating and those who lie about it.  lol.  Perhaps that is true.  I have no way of knowing.

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

But it was a very specific context and thus we should be careful about applying the verse to a broader application that it may or may not be relevant to.

Onan was essentially trying to have the advantages of a Levirate marriage (legitimate sex as well as everything else that came along with the role such as control over his dead brother's property and appreciation from his father) while trying to keeo all the inheritance from his father for himself (if the widow had no child to inherit, the property would not be split).  His rejection of the Law to care for his brother and his widow and to obey his father may have been why 'wasting his seed' was seen as so evil.

I think there is more to the scripture than above; not that what you have stated is wrong or helpful.  Onan did not want to have children from his dead brother's, Er, wife.  If did have children with her those children would belong to Er and not himself.

You stated with was an advantage - that he had to take his dead brother's wife, but I don't think of it as an advantage so much as an obligation.  Regardless, to prevent his new wife from conceiving he chose a specific course of action "when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother."  The Lord was so angry that he would waste his seed that he slew him.

The offense of masturbation is that the seed of man is wasted rather than being used to create children.  This act is exactly what Onan was doing except he was not alone.  There may be a discussion about the merits of being with one's spouse; however, God killed Onan because he chose not to have children.  How important is having children to God?  

This is not the place to talk more frankly about this topic - it takes us into areas that are not allowed on the board.  What is of value to acknowledge is that when man does anything to waste, to imitate, to demean the creative we should be wary.  It is not simple, it is a significant act that has value in the eyes of God.  As individuals we should be concerned about being complacent about these actions.  

[Storm Rider]

14 minutes ago, california boy said:

I used to have a bishop ask me about masterbation in every interview that I had with him.  He wanted to know how often and then tell me to stop.

Someone once said:  There are two kinds of guys.  Those who admit to masterbating and those who lie about it.  lol.  Perhaps that is true.  I have no way of knowing.

Cal, I can only tell my experience.  I have heard of bishops that were more than blunt about a host of topics in interviews with young men.  I suspect that there are bishops that are doing this at present, but I expect not many.  They have been taught to not go into detail about topics unless directly led by the Spirit.

Frankly, honestly, the issue for me is not if one has, but if one does; is it a habit.  I think it is better to teach our children that they learn to channel these energies into different things and to refrain from actions that cause guilt.  

For the later part of my childhood I grew up on a farm.  What a learning environment for children.  It allows for some pretty open conversations.  Thankfully, mom was great at talking about anything at the dinner table.  No topics regarding sex, or anything else, was off limits and we talked about everything.  Living in concrete jungles, sterile environments devoid of life and the functions of nature create a desert where learning about life is more than challenging.  That is a topic for another thread. 

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Just to be clear, I was never asked about any sexual act in any interview I have had with a church leader at any level during my life time.  Although I don't accept your premise, I do think that individuals can manipulate others for wrong or evil purposes.  I don't think the type of control you are positing is common in the Church or in most churches.  

 

My experience is the opposite of yours.  As a youth I was asked about masturbation all the time. When I was a bishop I recall another bishop in our stake at one bishop's council meeting saying he does not ask "Do you masturbate."  Rather he asked  "When was the last time you masturbated?" 

My most recent TR interview with my bishop included and extra question when it came to the law of chastity question.  At that point he asked if I had a problem with pornography.  I found that interesting because when I was the bishop I stuck to the questions as listed.  The bishop explained to me that because porn is such a problem he asks this question now in every TR interview.  

[Teancum]

32 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Cal, I can only tell my experience.  I have heard of bishops that were more than blunt about a host of topics in interviews with young men.  I suspect that there are bishops that are doing this at present, but I expect not many.  They have been taught to not go into detail about topics unless directly led by the Spirit.

Frankly, honestly, the issue for me is not if one has, but if one does; is it a habit.  I think it is better to teach our children that they learn to channel these energies into different things and to refrain from actions that cause guilt.  

For the later part of my childhood I grew up on a farm.  What a learning environment for children.  It allows for some pretty open conversations.  Thankfully, mom was great at talking about anything at the dinner table.  No topics regarding sex, or anything else, was off limits and we talked about everything.  Living in concrete jungles, sterile environments devoid of life and the functions of nature create a desert where learning about life is more than challenging.  That is a topic for another thread. 

That is fair but it also shows a problem in the luck of the leadership draw...

[Storm Rider]

41 minutes ago, Teancum said:

My experience is the opposite of yours.  As a youth I was asked about masturbation all the time. When I was a bishop I recall another bishop in our stake at one bishop's council meeting saying he does not ask "Do you masturbate."  Rather he asked  "When was the last time you masturbated?" 

My most recent TR interview with my bishop included and extra question when it came to the law of chastity question.  At that point he asked if I had a problem with pornography.  I found that interesting because when I was the bishop I stuck to the questions as listed.  The bishop explained to me that because porn is such a problem he asks this question now in every TR interview.  

Is this Utah?  I always think that strange things happen there that don't often happen as much outside that region.  I freely admit I am jaded and rather pro-mission field.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Cal, I can only tell my experience.  I have heard of bishops that were more than blunt about a host of topics in interviews with young men.  I suspect that there are bishops that are doing this at present, but I expect not many.  They have been taught to not go into detail about topics unless directly led by the Spirit.

Frankly, honestly, the issue for me is not if one has, but if one does; is it a habit.  I think it is better to teach our children that they learn to channel these energies into different things and to refrain from actions that cause guilt.  

For the later part of my childhood I grew up on a farm.  What a learning environment for children.  It allows for some pretty open conversations.  Thankfully, mom was great at talking about anything at the dinner table.  No topics regarding sex, or anything else, was off limits and we talked about everything.  Living in concrete jungles, sterile environments devoid of life and the functions of nature create a desert where learning about life is more than challenging.  That is a topic for another thread. 

Nice post.  Sounds like you had a wonderful childhood.

[Teancum]

26 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Is this Utah?  I always think that strange things happen there that don't often happen as much outside that region.  I freely admit I am jaded and rather pro-mission field.

My youth was Utah.  My adult life is in the eastern part of the USA.  The bishop that said he asks when the last time was had grown up in Utah, like me, but had been in our geographical area most of his adult life based on his career path and employer directly out of college.

[UtahTexan]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Yes.  Isis devotees think they are obeying God as well.  Funny that! 

Do they?  How many have you spoken with?

[Teancum]

2 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

Do they?  How many have you spoken with?

Yes they do.

No I have not spoken to them.  But I have studied up and read much on the issue.  Have you?

 

ISIS believes they are the catalyst for establishing a Islamic Caliphate.  And this in preparation for the end times where Rome (interpreted as Christianity) will be at war with Islam and Islam will prevail.

Maybe you ought to educate yourself about what other fundamentalist religious sects believe.   It might open your eyes to issues that your own has.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2016 by Teancum

[UtahTexan]

45 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yes they do.

No I have not spoken to them.  But I have studied up and read much on the issue.  Have you?

 

ISIS believes they are the catalyst for establishing a Islamic Caliphate.  And this in preparation for the end times where Rome (interpreted as Christianity) will be at war with Islam and Islam will prevail.

Maybe you ought to educate yourself about what other fundamentalist religious sects believe.   It might open your eyes to issues that your own has.

 

 

lol.  I love how people simply assume things here.  It amuses me how unintelligent that is.  See, I did not assume that you had not spoken to any....so...I asked.  You, however, assumed I had no knowledge.  

I spent three years working for a Muslim Law Firm.  There are three partners to this firm.....one is from Iran.  He is atheist.  The other two are from Palestine.  They are devout Muslim.  In the firm, roughly 40% of the employees are Muslim, or are from the Middle East.  I cannot tell you how many hours we spent talking about the Middle East and what is going on over there.  We discussed the Radicals.  We discussed the different sects over there.  We discussed how the radicals became so empowered.  Hours upon hours over three years.  I read the Koran.  I asked questions.  I fasted with them a day here and there during Ramadan to show support.  Currently, I am studying the history of Islam.  Have been several weeks.  The study started with the area and then the childhood of Mohammed.  I am up to Mohammed trying to gain a following.  

So...perhaps you should not show ignorance about people you do not know.  It makes you look less than intelligent.

Thanks!

Edited March 12, 2016 by CountryBoy

[Teancum]

1 minute ago, CountryBoy said:

lol.  I love how people simply assume things here.  It amuses me how unintelligent that is.  See, I did not assume that you had not spoken to any....so...I asked.  You, however, assumed I had no knowledge.  

I spent three years working for a Muslim Law Firm.  There are three partners to this firm.....one is from Iran.  He is atheist.  The other two are from Palestine.  They are devout Muslim.  In the firm, roughly 40% of the employees are Muslim, or are from the Middle East.  I cannot tell you how many hours we spent talking about the Middle East and what is going on over there.  We discussed the Radicals.  We discussed the different sects over there.  We discussed how the radicals became so empowered.  Hours upon hours over three years.  I read the Koran.  I asked questions.  I fasted with them a day here and there during Ramadan to show support.  So...perhaps you should not show ignorance about people you do not know.  It makes you look less than intelligent.

Thanks!

Your response to me as to whether I had talked to any from ISIS was flippant and this my response.  Had you shared the info initially that you shared above that would have changed the dialogue.  Instead you wanted to play coy now didn't you.  So don't impugn my intelligence when you were simply playing games in your question as to whether I had talked anyone from ISIS about their apocalyptic views.  

If you are an attorney by profession your gamesmanship perhaps makes sense.  You criticism of my alleged ignorance about people I don't know was in fact a result of your coy response.  Next time try to be a bit more transparent.

 

[UtahTexan]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Your response to me as to whether I had talked to any from ISIS was flippant and this my response.  Had you shared the info initially that you shared above that would have changed the dialogue.  Instead you wanted to play coy now didn't you.  So don't impugn my intelligence when you were simply playing games in your question as to whether I had talked anyone from ISIS about their apocalyptic views.  

If you are an attorney by profession your gamesmanship perhaps makes sense.  You criticism of my alleged ignorance about people I don't know was in fact a result of your coy response.  Next time try to be a bit more transparent.

 

First, you incorrectly presumed my intelligence...now you presume my frame of mind?  You gave a flippant answer to my comment about God.  You posted as if you had real knowledge.  So, instead of presuming, I asked if you had spoken to those who you attribute doing what God tells them.  As it turns out, you have no first-hand knowledge.  When that is pointed out, you get defensive and then tell me my motives.  At some point, you will ask me instead of continuing to incorrectly presume things about me.

Or maybe not.