More Jesus, Less Joseph: Changes in Mormon General Conference

[Bernard Gui]

Please see my edit in the table showing references to thecBoM in 1800s conference talks.

[Meerkat]

5 hours ago, Anon the Great said:

Yes I read the thread. I came to the same observation of Joseph Smith seldom referenced the Book of Mormon many, many years ago.  The next question was to ask why.  He was deep into occult powers and the way to build his power to even run for the President of the United States was to quote from the Bible to convince followers his religion was the right one and to study the Book of Mormons to prove it. He always dazzled the members and Bible believers with ideas that sound true and "deep" (King Follet Discourse or Lectures on Faith), but they are half-true mental tricks, and the darkness is hidden from the members once they believe in the Book of Mormon.

Why do you insist on disparaging the Prophet Joseph Smith?  I get it that you are not interested in finding out if he is a true prophet or not.  But why the disparagement?   Remember when John told the Savior in Mark 9:38-42 "Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him because he followeth not us."  "But Jesus said, forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.  For he that is not against us is on our part.  For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.  And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea." 

I would say most things are open for discussion.  But the tone (statements like "half-true mental trickes, and the darkness is hidden from the members," etc.) don't help.  I've read probably as much anti material as you have, but it doesn't change what I know from personal revelation.  I've served in most leadership callings on a local level and I affirm to you that you are mistaken about hidden darkness.  Have there been mistakes?  Of course.  It's all right out in the open.  I know of no organization that has been more dedicated to record keeping than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  We can discuss things in a pleasant tone.  We don't need to go down a similar path to the Kavanaugh hearings. 

You speak as if you know something about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.  I have heard your tone and arguments for over 40 years.  You read anti literature, and accept it as true.  The only way to find out is to take it to God.  May I request that  you lighten up on the disparagement.  It isn't persuasive or edifying to those of us who are converted.  I don't suppose you would be edified if I called your friends and church leaders dishonest deceivers.  Would that persuade you?  I didn't think so.  That's not God's way, in my opinion.  Paul, in 1 Cor. 1 says "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God... But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen." 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Meerkat

[Royce]

On 3/4/2016 at 6:00 PM, JAHS said:

Interesting article in the Religion News Service about the shift in topics over the years in General Conference

'With LDS General Conference coming up, there’s always lots of speculation about what topics the prophets, apostles, and auxiliary leaders will cover. Two sociologists take a long view – a really long view, as in all of LDS church history – and point to what we can learn about how Mormonism changes over time by crunching the numbers of what gets talked about at General Conference."

More Jesus, Less Joseph: Changes in Mormon General Conference

Church critics also like to complain about how many times the prophet or apostles actually testify of Jesus Christ or the Book of Mormon being the word of God.

 

Turns out there was no "LDS" conference coming up.

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Royce said:

Turns out there was no "LDS" conference coming up.

If by chance you are doing oneliners in order to up your post count so you can post your own thread in this forum, you have blown past that point two posts ago.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Anon the Great said:

Yes I read the thread. I came to the same observation of Joseph Smith seldom referenced the Book of Mormon many, many years ago. The next question was to ask why.  He was deep into occult powers and the way to build his power to even run for the President of the United States was to quote from the Bible to convince followers his religion was the right one and to study the Book of Mormons to prove it. He always dazzled the members and Bible believers with ideas that sound true and "deep" (King Follet Discourse or Lectures on Faith), but they are half-true mental tricks, and the darkness is hidden from the members once they believe in the Book of Mormon.

I suppose that’s one way to look at it. Half-true mental tricks?

It is not accurate to say Joseph seldom referred to the Book of Mormon. We have no way to judge how often and in what detail he referenced it because we do not have a comprehensive transcribed record of his public addresses such as we do of other leaders in the Journal of Discourses. Non-members were present at many of Joseph’s public talks. He used the book with which his audience was most familiar to preach the gospel....the Bible.

Here are the words on a non-Mormon who heard Joseph speak and was apparently “dazzled.” I don’t think your description matches the reality. 

“Mathew Livingston Davis (1773-1850) was a journalist. Remembered for his long association with Aaron Burr, Davis was a Washington correspondent for the New York Enquirer at the time the Prophet gave this discourse.” https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/words-joseph-smith-contemporary-accounts-nauvoo-discourses-prophet-joseph/1840/5-february

Quote

During the whole of his address, and it occupied more than two hours, there was no opinion or belief that he expressed, that was calculated, in the slightest degree, to impair the morals of society, or in any manner to degrade and brutalize the human species. There was much in his precepts, if they were followed, that would soften the asperities of man towards man, and that would tend to make him a more rational being than he is generally found to be. There was no violence, no fury, no denunciation. His religion appears to be the religion of meekness, lowliness, and mild persuasion.

Towards the close of his address, he remarked that he had been represented as pretending to be a Savior, a worker of miracles, etc. All this was false. He made no such pretensions. He was but a man, he said; a plain, untutored man; seeking what he should do to be saved. He performed no miracles. He did not pretend to possess any such power. He closed by referring to the Mormon Bible, which he said, contained nothing inconsistent or conflicting with the Christian Bible, and he again repeated that all who would follow the precepts of the Bible, whether Mormon or not, would assuredly be saved.

Throughout his whole address, he displayed strongly a spirit of charity and forbearance. The Mormon Bible, he said, was communicated to him, direct from heaven. If there was such a thing on earth, as the author of it, then he (Smith) was the author; but the idea that he wished to impress was, that he had penned it as dictated by God.

I have taken some pains to explain this man's belief, as he himself explained it. I have done so because it might satisfy your curiosity, and might be interesting to you, and some of your friends. I have changed my opinion of the Mormons. They are an injured and much-abused people. Of matters of faith, you know I express no opinion.

An interesting quote from Joseph’s talk referred to in  M.L.Davis’s letter. Where do you suppose Joseph learned about “the plan of redemption” and that it was foreordained before the Fall of Adam? (Hint: not in the Bible)....

Quote

....I believe in the fall of man, as recorded in the Bible; I believe that God foreknew everything, but did not foreordain everything; I deny that foreordain and foreknow is the same thing. He foreordained the fall of man; but all merciful as He is, He foreordained at the same time, a plan for redemption for all mankind.

A less friendly observer noted Joseph’s use of the Book of Mormon in his discourse to a non-Mormon audience in Washington DC. He did not quote from the BoM, but he did not hesitate to refer to it.

Quote

Christian Advocate and Journal (6 March 1840) 

A delegation of the "Mormons" having been in this city [Washington] some time, to seek remuneration of congress for their Missouri losses, Joseph Smith ("Jo Smith" as known to fame) has held one or two meetings here. I dropped in a little while on the evening of the 4th instant to see and hear. The Prophet, or inspired penman, (whichever title he prefers, for he averred to the meeting that he was inspired to write the golden Bible, or the "Book of Mormon," a copy of which he held in his hand,) is a stout, square-built man of about thirty or thirty-five years of age, of prepossessing manner, and look, and shrewd mind. He has evidently a good English education, and is an energetic, impassioned speaker. The doctrines he professes in Washington are similar to those of the Campbelites of the west, laying great stress on baptism "FOR" the remission of sins. He quotes from the New Testament readily in his addresses. He took good care, as there was an intelligent congregation, including several members of congress, present, to say but little about the "Book of Mormon." He averred, however that nobody wrote it but him, and that it contained nothing contrary to the Bible, or its virtue. In describing the sufferings of his followers in Missouri he was somewhat eloquent, as he has a good voice for the pathetic.

—5 February 1840

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[10THAmendment]

I have been very happy about the shift from Joseph Smith to Christ in general. Growing up, I could have sworn the church was the Church of Joseph Smith of Latter-Day Saints based on how much more he was talked about in sacrament meeting and Sunday school. I think Joseph Smith was elevated to the status of God in many ways which is a major factor of why so many people leave the faith after they realize that Joseph Smith was a very imperfect man.

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Anon the Great said:

 

You have a lot of ideas for me to respond to.  I should have used the word "studied" instead of "observation", because I am a person that "observes" ideas rather than physical things, unlike what most other people do, so sometimes I communicate ineffectively with the wrong words from my viewpoint.  From my many studies, I found it very odd that Joseph Smith would talk about the Book of Mormon but not quote ideas from it.  Joseph Smith pretended to believe in the Bible, but his deeper ideas were from the Bible mixed with the ideas of the fallen sons of God to increase his power and influence for what he thought was right.  He was not lukewarm.

When the fallen sons of God are revealed from the third heaven, they appear in glory and power, and the overwhelming feeling of love is persuasive to deceive.  An example would be Oliver Cowdery's description of the imposter John the Baptist.  The love is overpowering.  Of course it is, because the light and love is from God's power and glory.  But the ideas, the light, is twisted light and not pure light and hides the dark ideas. Just because it is light doesn't mean it is true.  Jesus hasn't appear to anyone in His pure untwisted glory after He left earth because it is not appropriate in God's plan to mix the third heaven with mortality, like He did at Mt. Sinai, unless He plans to use His power to translate mortals so they don't die. Paul was blinded by the pure light, for example. But He will come again the way mortals saw him leave,  but not in His glory.  Until then, He appears to our spirits in the kingdom of God within us.  The earth will be translated and perfected, and then, the earth will be celestial with light, and then, we will see the glory of God in the third heaven, which the earth will become a part of. 

When Joseph Smith says he believes the Bible and the fall of man, he is believing the theologians and promoted the idea, although, the Book of Mormon says the Bible comes short of our needs because many  "plain and precious" things where removed.  In spite of Joseph Smith's theological errors, God moved Christians into the LDS Church for His greater purpose to have us think more deeply about the Bible and discard the occult teachings of Lucifer and the theologians and replace them with the Holy Spirt.  Also, as a comment, the Bible does not teach Adam and Eve caused the fall, but the earth was created mortal and Adam and Eve was transported from immortal planets here to live in a space or bubble of light called the Garden of Eden. 

It is simply assumed by theologians that the fall of the earth and animals and plants was caused by Adam and Eve, but the Bible does not teach it, proving that Joseph Smith's ideas about the fall are based on man's views..  As such, he was deceived by the love of God from the messengers about many ideas about Adam and Eve that are in error based on bad assumptions, and then, the sons of God could lie to him, and he would automatically believed their lies mixed with love.  For example, Adam and Eve birthed many immortal children before they fell and had to leave them in the Garden of Eden; therefore, Adam gave his wife the name Eve, because her body was mother of all her living children she had to leave.   The children she would birth as a mortal would die, not live. So her name was changed.  This is few examples of how major paradigms of the Bible are created in Mormonism to fool the LDS.  As soon as the LDS believe the Book of Mormon, the ideas of the fall, grace,  the purpose of life, and many other doctrines are implanted in the mind about the "plan of salvation" of eternal ideas, which are false.   However, the Lord's focus in the LDS Church has been on His temporal power directed by the Holy Spirit up until now.  He is now moving the LDS ship to the Bible so the Saints can find the peace and joy of the first heaven, after they have learned to hear the Holy Spirit regarding temporal things.

OK. Got it. I think. It must be hard to distinguish the true followers and leaders from the false.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, 10THAmendment said:

I have been very happy about the shift from Joseph Smith to Christ in general. Growing up, I could have sworn the church was the Church of Joseph Smith of Latter-Day Saints based on how much more he was talked about in sacrament meeting and Sunday school. I think Joseph Smith was elevated to the status of God in many ways which is a major factor of why so many people leave the faith after they realize that Joseph Smith was a very imperfect man.

That wasn't my experience growing up.