TheSkepticChristian Posted February 28, 2016 Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) Is there a first hand description of the physical appearance of Moroni by at least one of the 3 witnesses? Joseph Smith did describe Moroni, but what about the Witnesses? Is there clear evidence the Moroni vision was not created by the power of suggestion? Is there a scholar that debunks Dan Vogel's Book of Mormon witnesses presentation? LDS apologists only focus on the pathetic CES letter, but what about tougher critics like Dan Vogel's Book of Mormon witnesses presentation? A review or response of his presentation will be appreciated. Edited February 28, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 28, 2016 Author Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) Quote In 1897, Edmund Parish reported of shipmates who had shared a ghostly vision of their cook who had died a few days earlier. The sailors not only saw the ghost, but distinctly saw him walking on the water with his familiar and recognizable limp. Their ghost turned out to be a "piece of wreck, rocked up and down by the waves" (Parish, 311; cited in Rawcliffe, 115). http://skepdic.com/collective.html Evidence that it is not a similar case with the Book of Mormon witnesses will be appreciated. Edited February 28, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
cdowis Posted February 28, 2016 Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) Vogel has himself refuted Vogel. His detailed account of what occurred with the Eight Witnesses is, by his own admission, based on his own imagination. Edited February 28, 2016 by cdowis 2
cdowis Posted February 28, 2016 Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Evidence that it is not a similar case with the Book of Mormon witnesses will be appreciated. Has nothing at all related to the Eight Witnesses who closely examined the plates, and hefted them. I see nothing here where these shipmates physically grabbed the ghost, and carefully checked him out. You are welcome. Edited February 28, 2016 by cdowis 2
Glenn101 Posted February 28, 2016 Posted February 28, 2016 7 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Is there a first hand description of the physical appearance of Moroni by at least one of the witness? Joseph Smith did describe Moroni, but what about the Witnesses? Is there clear evidence the Moroni vision was not created by the power of suggestion? Is there a scholar that debunks Dan Vogel's Book of Mormon witnesses presentation? LDS apologists only focus on the pathetic CES letter, but what about tougher critics like Dan Vogel's Book of Mormon witnesses presentation? A review or response of his presentation will be appreciated. You need to do some more homework. You seem to be delving extensively into "skeptical" literature. The witnesses have been examined by friendly as well as unfriendly sources pretty thoroughly. It will be just as easy for you to look them up and read them as it would be for me to search them out and post them for you. If you are interested in a balanced array of information, you really need to dig for it and read up on the pros and cons. But, in the end, a spiritual witness is what you will really need. Glenn 4
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 28, 2016 Author Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Glenn101 said: You need to do some more homework. You seem to be delving extensively into "skeptical" literature. The witnesses have been examined by friendly as well as unfriendly sources pretty thoroughly. It will be just as easy for you to look them up and read them as it would be for me to search them out and post them for you. If you are interested in a balanced array of information, you really need to dig for it and read up on the pros and cons. But, in the end, a spiritual witness is what you will really need. Glenn I did do my homework, I read Richard Anderson. Let me tell you, no one here doubts the witnesses believed they saw an angel, that is not the question. However, hopefully I missed something, so I am asking you for the evidence. 6 hours ago, cdowis said: Vogel has himself refuted Vogel. His detailed account of what occurred with the Eight Witnesses is, by his own admission, based on his own imagination. He admits it is just his secular interpretation. I am asking for evidence that shows the neutral or agnostic position is not the best one. Edited February 28, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
thesometimesaint Posted February 28, 2016 Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) Which witnesses? There seems to be some type of spiritual witness to the 3, but none such for the eight. SEE http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Book_of_Mormon_Witnesses Edited February 28, 2016 by thesometimesaint
Sevenbak Posted February 28, 2016 Posted February 28, 2016 Moroni appeared to 17 different people, including the 3 Witnesses.
Cold Steel Posted February 28, 2016 Posted February 28, 2016 Dr. Peterson gave this very good address on the witnesses. At the offset he says it will be boring, but it is quite the opposite. (Note to speakers: Stop doing that! We'll decide if it's boring. I hate recommending a lecture to someone, only for the lecturer to say it's going to be boring, etc. Sheeesh!) Richard L. Anderson's book on the witnesses is still the most scholarly on the subject. When the Lord uses witnesses, He ensures there will be no ambiguity or question regarding it. One may still reject it, but no one EVER came away from one of the witnesses wondering whether his or her question had been answered or not. They weren't shy about questions and they never tired of answering questions about their experience. They could be in excellent spirits or deathly ill. They NEVER said, "I don't feel like talking about it" or, "I've answered that a million times." They NEVER sighed or said, "I just remembered, I have to go split wood for the Widow Jones." In their testimonies they also never disparaged the prophet, either, even though some became embittered against him or the church. In fact, the strength and power of their testimonies were almost always mentioned as asides to the accounts. There was no power of suggestion. Oh, and if you think it could all be a scheme, try finding three friends of yours who will lie for you about something. Tell them they have to carry the lie to their graves and that they might get asked about it a lot. Then get your mother and father to lie about you and make up some grand whoppers! It would be tougher than most people could even conceive of. 2
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 28, 2016 Author Posted February 28, 2016 12 minutes ago, Cold Steel said: Richard L. Anderson's book on the witnesses is still the most scholarly on the subject. When the Lord uses witnesses, He ensures there will be no ambiguity or question regarding it. One may still reject it, but no one EVER came away from one of the witnesses wondering whether his or her question had been answered or not. They weren't shy about questions and they never tired of answering questions about their experience. They could be in excellent spirits or deathly ill. They NEVER said, "I don't feel like talking about it" or, "I've answered that a million times." They NEVER sighed or said, "I just remembered, I have to go split wood for the Widow Jones." In their testimonies they also never disparaged the prophet, either, even though some became embittered against him or the church. In fact, the strength and power of their testimonies were almost always mentioned as asides to the accounts. There was no power of suggestion. Oh, and if you think it could all be a scheme, try finding three friends of yours who will lie for you about something. Tell them they have to carry the lie to their graves and that they might get asked about it a lot. Then get your mother and father to lie about you and make up some grand whoppers! It would be tougher than most people could even conceive of. Very nice, but can you please answer my questions. No one doubts the Witnesses believed they saw an angel, but that is not my question. As for the Peterson talk, let's be specific please. I am not going to show lengthily Youtube videos of Dan Vogel.
Calm Posted February 28, 2016 Posted February 28, 2016 12 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: LDS apologists only focus on the pathetic CES letter, Which has been in existence for what...2-3 years? Guess we were just twiddling our thumbs prior to that. It is really hard to take you the least bit seriously when you makes nonsense taunts like this. 1
Cold Steel Posted February 28, 2016 Posted February 28, 2016 2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Very nice, but can you please answer my questions. No one doubts the Witnesses believed they saw an angel, but that is not my question. As for the Peterson talk, let's be specific please. I am not going to show lengthily Youtube videos of Dan Vogel. Well, you stated your questions as: Is there a first-hand description of the physical appearance of Moroni by at least one of the 3 witnesses? Is there clear evidence the Moroni vision was not created by the power of suggestion? Is there a scholar that debunks Dan Vogel's Book of Mormon witnesses presentation? Yes, for the first question. David Whitmer said he was "about 5 feet, 8 or 9 inches tall and heavy set" with a large face and with white hair and beard. Martin Harris, just after the experience, is quoted as saying, "I have now seen an angel from heaven, who has of a surety, testified of the truth of all I have heard concerning the record, and my eyes have beheld him. I have also looked upon the plates and have handled them with my hands and can testify of the same to the whole world. But I have received for myself a witness that words cannot express, that no tongue can describe, and I bless God in the sincerity of my soul...." As for clear evidence that the vision was not created by the power of suggestion, it's not something I would even entertain simply because suggestion is subtle. You might make someone want a Snickers bar or a glass of water, but it's almost impossible for a man to convince three or four others that they'd been on a week's vacation to Paris. You have people like Kreskin (a very highly skilled manipulator) who can cause selected members of his audience to think they see flying saucers in the sky. And though it may seem very real at the time, that "reality" grows ever weaker over time. Details become less distinct. In Joseph Smith's time, I don't think there were people with Kreskin's skill in suggestion. Your audience has to be prepared in advance and frequently after the event, they don't even recall it. Even so, no one had that kind of knowledge in Smith's day. First Smith becomes an expert in Arabian geography and Jewish culture; now he's a trained hypnotist. The presumptions are too complicated. Yes, i think Dr.Richard Lloyd Anderson refutes Vogel's claims, and Dr. Peterson does a fine job putting a bow on it. Some may agree, while others may not. These men who had the experience seem honorable, but Vogel strains at gnats in my view. Both sets of witnesses appear very much to have seen what they claim. But I know of no formal refutations of Vogel's assertions. The witnesses themselves are the best refutations I can think of. 2
Avatar4321 Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 I've read excerpts from letters between Oliver and David after they were excommunicated. They discuss the Book of Mormon and priesthood ordinations etc as events that really happened. Very odd if those were made up experiences. You can try to discredit them but there is no doubt that they believed what they were testifying 1
mfbukowski Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 (edited) We seem to be going over territory we repeat on every thread and every comment from our dear friend Skeptic. He seems not to understand the difference between subjective and objective knowledge. The truth of religion is in our hearts, known by its fruits in our life, not objective observation. It is like knowing you are in love. To me, the question in the OP is like asking the board if they know HE, SC, is in love. I don't know if Skeptic is in love- how could I? If someone says they saw Moroni, it cannot be verified in a scientific way. It will never be able to be verified in a scientific way. It is like arguing about these silly optical tricks on the internet where some say the dress is blue and others don't. There is no way to determine what color the dress "really" is because it depends on the perceptions of the person. This seems so simple- I have no idea why some make it so hard!! Perceptions vary. Big deal. End of story. It doesn't matter if it WAS or WAS NOT the "power of suggestion" because that on its face cannot be determined. It is epistemologically impossible to determine because the report is based on personal perception. Until we can crawl into someone's head we will never see the world the way another does. That's about all there is to say. I don't know why this is so hard. To me, Vogel is a dogmatic literalist fundamentalist. Edited February 29, 2016 by mfbukowski 3
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 29, 2016 Author Posted February 29, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Cold Steel said: Yes, for the first question. David Whitmer said he was "about 5 feet, 8 or 9 inches tall and heavy set" with a large face and with white hair and beard.. First hand account? Was he really talking about Moroni? and it seems it is talking about a vision before the official Book of Mormon Moroni vision? 2 hours ago, Cold Steel said: Martin Harris, just after the experience, is quoted as saying, "I have now seen an angel from heaven, who has of a surety, testified of the truth of all I have heard concerning the record, and my eyes have beheld him. I have also looked upon the plates and have handled them with my hands and can testify of the same to the whole world. But I have received for myself a witness that words cannot express, that no tongue can describe, and I bless God in the sincerity of my soul...." That is nice, but no one doubts that he had a sincere testimony. 2 hours ago, Cold Steel said: As for clear evidence that the vision was not created by the power of suggestion, it's not something I would even entertain simply because suggestion is subtle. You might make someone want a Snickers bar or a glass of water, but it's almost impossible for a man to convince three or four others that they'd been on a week's vacation to Paris. You have people like Kreskin (a very highly skilled manipulator) who can cause selected members of his audience to think they see flying saucers in the sky. And though it may seem very real at the time, that "reality" grows ever weaker over time. Details become less distinct. In Joseph Smith's time, I don't think there were people with Kreskin's skill in suggestion. Collective hallucinations do happen, and someone with skills is not required. How can we be sure the witnesses did not imagine Moroni? Some critics say, "To these people that believed in 'second sight', saying they saw something with their natural eyes or in this 'second sight' made no difference to them." How can we know that doesn't apply to the 3 witnesses? Please show us evidence. Edited February 29, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 29, 2016 Author Posted February 29, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, Calm said: Which has been in existence for what...2-3 years? Guess we were just twiddling our thumbs prior to that. I didn't say always, but currently LDS apologists are mostly focusing on the CES letter. Where is the response to Dan Vogel's presentations and publications? 6 hours ago, Calm said: It is really hard to take you the least bit seriously when you makes nonsense taunts like this. Don't take me seriously, it is just a message board, I am simply asking for documented evidence. I know you don't like me, but please try not to misrepresent what I say. Edited February 29, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
thesometimesaint Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 I like you just fine. But what physical evidence can you find that supports any religious claim? If you had the Golden Plates in front of you right now. What physical evidence could you possibly show that you saw an angel, or that JS translation of them was by the power of God?
Sevenbak Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 (edited) Descriptions from David Whitmer. We not only saw the plates of the Book of Mormon, but also the brass plates, the plates of the Book of Ether, the plates containing the records of the wickedness and secret combinations of the people of the world down to the time of their being engraved, and many other plates. The fact is, it was just as though Joseph, Oliver and I were sitting just here on a log, when we were overshadowed by a light. It was not like the light of the sun nor like that of a fire, but more glorious and beautiful. It extended away round us, I cannot tell how far, but in the midst of this light about as far off as he sits (pointing to John C. Whitmer, sitting a few feet from him), there appeared, as it were, a table with many records or plates upon it, besides the plates of the Book of Mormon, also the sword of Laban, the directors--i. e., the ball which Lehi had, and the interpreters. I saw them just as plain as I see this bed (striking the bed beside him with his hand), and I heard the voice of the Lord, as distinctly as I ever heard anything in my life, declaring that the records of the plates of the Book of Mormon were translated by the gift and power of God." “I was plowing in the field one morning, and Joseph and Oliver came along with a revelation stating that I was to be one of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. I got over the fence and we went out into the woods, near by, and sat down on a log and talked a while. We then kneeled down and prayed. Joseph prayed. We then got up and sat on the log and were talking, when all at once a light came down from above us and encircled us for quite a little distance around; and the angel stood before us. He was dressed in white, and spoke and called me by name and said, ‘Blessed is he that keepeth His commandments.” This is all that I heard the angel say. A table was set before us and on it the records were placed. The records of the Nephites, from which the Book of Mormon was translated, the brass plates, the ball of directors, the sword of Laban and other plates. While we were viewing them the voice of God spoke out of heaven saying that the book was true and the translation correct.” We then asked him, “Do you remember the peculiar sensation experienced upon that occasion?” He answered very slowly and definitely: “Yes; I remember it very distinctly; and I never think of it, from that day to this, but what that same Spirit is present with me.” “How did you know it was the voice of God?” “We knew it was the voice of God. I knew it was the voice of God just as well as I knew anything.” Edited February 29, 2016 by Sevenbak
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 29, 2016 Author Posted February 29, 2016 (edited) 14 hours ago, Sevenbak said: Descriptions from David Whitmer” Nice, but 1. Not a first hand account. It is from George Reynolds, “History of the Book of Mormon,” Contributor, Aug. 1884, 403 2. Doesn't mention Moroni or angel. There is no description of the angel Moroni. Edited February 29, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 29, 2016 Author Posted February 29, 2016 I give up, it seems that no one here can answer my questions
cdowis Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 (edited) I gave a direct and pointed answer on your question about Vogel. You mumbled some lame excuse, and dismissed it with a wave of your hand. Now you have the hubris to claim that there was no answer at all. Sirrah, if you are persistent in being rude and insulting, I shall put you on ignore mode. Edited February 29, 2016 by cdowis
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 29, 2016 Author Posted February 29, 2016 (edited) 14 minutes ago, cdowis said: I gave a direct and pointed answer on your question about Vogel. You mumbled some lame excuse, and dismissed it with a wave of your hand. Now you have the hubris to claim that there was no answer at all. Sirrah, if you do that again, and I'll put you on ignore. You said, "Has nothing at all related to the Eight Witnesses who closely examined the plates, and hefted them." because that doesn't challenge Dan Vogel theory. In his presentation he did talk about what you are saying, but offered a different interpretation. I won't give details because I don't want to offend the mods, but it is clear that you have not seen his presentation on the Book of Mormon witnesses. You need more than that to challenge his Theory, I suggested how in the OP. PS even if the plates are 100% real, that doesn't prove anything about the angel, just ask James Strang. Edited February 29, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
why me Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 (edited) I think that if the witnesses were still around and sceptic was asking them such questions, they just may put the poster in his place. It seems that they actually had a wonderful spiritual experience which they reconfirmed on their death beds, as they were ready to meet their maker. The witnesses are the biggest confirmation for the truth of the book of mormon. And when I think about it, the bible has no witnesses...just gospel writers attempting to piece a story together but without witnesses that such events actually happened. And this is why the book of mormon is another testimony of christ and the witnesses are a needed strength for the book. And why would joseph need to risk getting such witnesses to confirm the book? It was a huge risk for him to do so, if he were a fraudster. He certainly had confidence that 11 people would keep the fraud going. . Edited February 29, 2016 by why me
mfbukowski Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 (edited) 44 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I give up, it seems that no one here can answer my questions That's because they are self-contradictory. You are looking for scientific answers to questions which science cannot answer. The problem is not in the answers, it is in the questions. Category mistake. You are looking for the "university" and seeing only the buildings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_mistake Edited February 29, 2016 by mfbukowski
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 29, 2016 Author Posted February 29, 2016 Just now, mfbukowski said: That's because they are self-contradictory. You are looking for scientific answers to questions which science cannot answer. How is a description a Scientific answer? Joseph Smith did describe Moroni, was that scientific?
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